2 dead in Vic NW of Melb at Wallup
Without an AOC, their is no accountability for standards.
Sunfish, you sound like a very smart businessman but you clearly have not flown within an organisation that requires accountability to CASA to maintain their CAR217 status.
Angel Flight uses pilots that hold a current licence, medical and ratings for the aircraft they will fly and which flight rules they propose to operate under (IFR/VFR). Anyone who has been around the industry would know of or personally seen some of the standards of pilots who have "shopped around a rating" for lack of a better term that have gained the tick in the box, but are marginal at best.
What accountability does Angel Flight have to ensure the highest standards of pilots and aircraft that an organisation that has an AOC and their own CAR217 C/T system? Keep in mind that AOC holders without CAR217 approvals still have a chief pilot to ensure standards are kept and adequate supervision is in place for inexperienced / junior pilots.
**Edit - If an AOC holders' standards drop, then CASA will move in and suspend their AOC (read Tiger - rightly or wrongly I'm not passing judgement on this case).
Sunfish, you sound like a very smart businessman but you clearly have not flown within an organisation that requires accountability to CASA to maintain their CAR217 status.
Angel Flight uses pilots that hold a current licence, medical and ratings for the aircraft they will fly and which flight rules they propose to operate under (IFR/VFR). Anyone who has been around the industry would know of or personally seen some of the standards of pilots who have "shopped around a rating" for lack of a better term that have gained the tick in the box, but are marginal at best.
What accountability does Angel Flight have to ensure the highest standards of pilots and aircraft that an organisation that has an AOC and their own CAR217 C/T system? Keep in mind that AOC holders without CAR217 approvals still have a chief pilot to ensure standards are kept and adequate supervision is in place for inexperienced / junior pilots.
**Edit - If an AOC holders' standards drop, then CASA will move in and suspend their AOC (read Tiger - rightly or wrongly I'm not passing judgement on this case).
A 4pm departure from EN via Kilmore then to Nhill, VFR is really, really pushing it. Especially under the overcast that was present, it would have been very very dark, with little or no ground lighting. The one upside is its very flat.
Ive done a lot of NVFR round the area in the last 12 months. Given yesterdays weather, it would have been very marginal at best, in the daylight, let alone pushing last light.
Ive done a lot of NVFR round the area in the last 12 months. Given yesterdays weather, it would have been very marginal at best, in the daylight, let alone pushing last light.
Firstly, my sympathies and condolences to all families and friends involved, and may the one survivor recover with the least long term trauma possible.
I flew out of YMEN late yesterday afternoon/evening and it wasn't a night that I would have elected to fly if my options were only NVFR. You never can tell though, unless you are in the same place, at the same time, as the other aircraft, so I would never say that it wasn't right for the pilot.
I must however take issue with the suggestions that these transfers only take place on a contracted operator. What a load of bollocks. should we ban PPLs from carrying pax? should we ban drivers from carrying passengers in non-licenced cars?
Angel Flight performs an invaluable service that would simply not exist if it were not for the untiring effort of the team and the dedicated network of volunteers. These patients need charity to be able to survive. I have been privileged to have a flown a few people, here, there and yonder on Angel Flights and have always been humbled by their acceptance of the vissitudes that life has dealt them and thanked any god that cared to listen that it wasn't me.
I know of one circumstance where the Vic Ambo Service (whom I admire greatly - lest there be any doubt) quoted $17,000 for a one way patient transfer, as it was not deemed to meet their cut-offs. I don't know that many people who could ever afford that once let alone as an ongoing regime of treatment.
If we relied on a registered operator to perform these services. I am sure that havick would be the first to offer to dramatically increase his/her personal tax rate to cover the needed infrastructure - or should we just leave them to die and say 'bugger it I'm alright jack'?
I flew out of YMEN late yesterday afternoon/evening and it wasn't a night that I would have elected to fly if my options were only NVFR. You never can tell though, unless you are in the same place, at the same time, as the other aircraft, so I would never say that it wasn't right for the pilot.
I must however take issue with the suggestions that these transfers only take place on a contracted operator. What a load of bollocks. should we ban PPLs from carrying pax? should we ban drivers from carrying passengers in non-licenced cars?
Angel Flight performs an invaluable service that would simply not exist if it were not for the untiring effort of the team and the dedicated network of volunteers. These patients need charity to be able to survive. I have been privileged to have a flown a few people, here, there and yonder on Angel Flights and have always been humbled by their acceptance of the vissitudes that life has dealt them and thanked any god that cared to listen that it wasn't me.
I know of one circumstance where the Vic Ambo Service (whom I admire greatly - lest there be any doubt) quoted $17,000 for a one way patient transfer, as it was not deemed to meet their cut-offs. I don't know that many people who could ever afford that once let alone as an ongoing regime of treatment.
If we relied on a registered operator to perform these services. I am sure that havick would be the first to offer to dramatically increase his/her personal tax rate to cover the needed infrastructure - or should we just leave them to die and say 'bugger it I'm alright jack'?
Bankstown Boy, you're totally missing the point I'm trying to make.
I'm not saying that a PPL cannot safely carry PAX! Who oversees this PPL pilot to ensure that they are really upto the task though?
Can someone please answer me this, are PAX required to sign some type of indemnity (similar to that of warbird/adventure flights)? Are the PAX actually aware that Angel Flight does not hold an AOC and therefore accountable to the standards of their pilots?
If the PAX are fully aware, then that's fine (not just a fineprint somewhere).
The main point I am trying to make is that without an AOC there is no accountability for any standards.
I'm not saying that a PPL cannot safely carry PAX! Who oversees this PPL pilot to ensure that they are really upto the task though?
Can someone please answer me this, are PAX required to sign some type of indemnity (similar to that of warbird/adventure flights)? Are the PAX actually aware that Angel Flight does not hold an AOC and therefore accountable to the standards of their pilots?
If the PAX are fully aware, then that's fine (not just a fineprint somewhere).
The main point I am trying to make is that without an AOC there is no accountability for any standards.
Why the need for an indemnity? or indeed the need for an AOC? I am sorry but you are the one missing the point havick.
Sometimes we get so caught up in the minutia of our own circumstances that we forget that others might not fit the same mould.
Just because it involves an aeroplane and involves a person doesn't mean that we need to invoke the requirements of a legislated business. This is charitable work. It should be able to be performed by PPL's operating under their own competencies.
Sometimes we get so caught up in the minutia of our own circumstances that we forget that others might not fit the same mould.
Just because it involves an aeroplane and involves a person doesn't mean that we need to invoke the requirements of a legislated business. This is charitable work. It should be able to be performed by PPL's operating under their own competencies.
Bankstown boy. Do the people boarding the flight know that the pilots' proficiency has not been checked by Angel Flight? That is THE point.
St John's ambulance volunteers are required to satisfy an assessor that they are competent prior to helping the public, same goes for Surf Life savers etc
I'm not forcing you or anyone to agree with me, it's just my own point of view which I am entitled to. You are entitled to voice your own point of view.
St John's ambulance volunteers are required to satisfy an assessor that they are competent prior to helping the public, same goes for Surf Life savers etc
I'm not forcing you or anyone to agree with me, it's just my own point of view which I am entitled to. You are entitled to voice your own point of view.
Last edited by havick; 16th Aug 2011 at 09:28.
Harry Cooper:
If that is the case then all PPL's are a danger to themselves and others. Come to think of it, the Commercial pilot licence standards aren't much higher either.
To put it another way, you and Havick have libeled every private pilot, plus CASA who set and administer the standards, as well as implying that anyone who flies as a passenger with a private pilot are endangering their lives.
I am not a member of Angel Flight, but they deserve our support, starting with a retraction from you.
I say again, delete your posts and I'll delete mine as well.
When people board these flights they have no idea what rules and regulations surround these operations. I agree that this is indeed a very noble idea but what are the checks and balances involved. What is their interview process and background checks? What is their Check and Training system? How do they know if someone is current? I've seen some pretty ordinary stuff from some of these operations labelled as Angel Flight in the past and have only thought it would be a matter of time before an accident happened.
To put it another way, you and Havick have libeled every private pilot, plus CASA who set and administer the standards, as well as implying that anyone who flies as a passenger with a private pilot are endangering their lives.
I am not a member of Angel Flight, but they deserve our support, starting with a retraction from you.
I say again, delete your posts and I'll delete mine as well.
I'm not slandering Angel Flight, nor am I saying that they are a poor organisation. I won't however backpedal on my own point of view. I did not ask you to delete your posts, you're more than entitled to put your view forward.
Don't put words in my mouth, furthermore your accusation of libel is noted however unjustified. I never said that PPL's were not upto the task, it is in fact YOU implying that's what I have said which is not the case. I am asking what supervision is there of any tasking taking place?
Have you ever been tasked in adverse conditions? There's quite a difference between flying a PVT flight of your own accord A - B, and one that is tasked by some organisation. Whether you're a CPL, PPL, ATPL it does not matter, there is still the perceived commercial pressure at play, and my observation relates more to who is there to supervise these tasks?
I know I have at times come close to launching on some helo ops that I probably shouldn't have, fortunately senior pilots / chief pilots have helped me make some wise decisions to delay. Please note that I am not suggesting at all that has happened in this particular accident, it is tragic and I am genuinely sad for all involved.
My point of view isn't targeted purely at Angel Flight, my opinion extends to any organisation that is flying pax on any tasking that could impose some perceived commercial pressure on the pilot. TriMedGroup is a good example of an organisation that I applaud with the infrastructure they are putting in place.
I think I've said enough. I hope the survivor recovers.
Don't put words in my mouth, furthermore your accusation of libel is noted however unjustified. I never said that PPL's were not upto the task, it is in fact YOU implying that's what I have said which is not the case. I am asking what supervision is there of any tasking taking place?
Have you ever been tasked in adverse conditions? There's quite a difference between flying a PVT flight of your own accord A - B, and one that is tasked by some organisation. Whether you're a CPL, PPL, ATPL it does not matter, there is still the perceived commercial pressure at play, and my observation relates more to who is there to supervise these tasks?
I know I have at times come close to launching on some helo ops that I probably shouldn't have, fortunately senior pilots / chief pilots have helped me make some wise decisions to delay. Please note that I am not suggesting at all that has happened in this particular accident, it is tragic and I am genuinely sad for all involved.
My point of view isn't targeted purely at Angel Flight, my opinion extends to any organisation that is flying pax on any tasking that could impose some perceived commercial pressure on the pilot. TriMedGroup is a good example of an organisation that I applaud with the infrastructure they are putting in place.
I think I've said enough. I hope the survivor recovers.
Last edited by havick; 16th Aug 2011 at 10:04.
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Angel Flight mentor their new pilots in dual flight to establish their suitability, according the the website.
In addtion , you will find their hours minima have a substantial command component.Its not quite as simple figure as cited.
As for night VFR, for me, its depends on how you were taught. I was trained to be extremely cautious about the whole thing...I make no/zero/zilch marginal calls when I plan for NVFR. Its a personal thing, but im fully conscious of yhe risks. I really enjoy the rating,and as its pretty good weather, the night flying is enjoyable. I think the main comment to make apart from the need for rock solid scan techniques, is that a pretty large margin of safety has to be applied to Meteorological forecasts for cloud base relative to LSALT s. The forecasts are quite wrong with alarming regularity. Another big scare is any risk of fog...beware.
In addtion , you will find their hours minima have a substantial command component.Its not quite as simple figure as cited.
As for night VFR, for me, its depends on how you were taught. I was trained to be extremely cautious about the whole thing...I make no/zero/zilch marginal calls when I plan for NVFR. Its a personal thing, but im fully conscious of yhe risks. I really enjoy the rating,and as its pretty good weather, the night flying is enjoyable. I think the main comment to make apart from the need for rock solid scan techniques, is that a pretty large margin of safety has to be applied to Meteorological forecasts for cloud base relative to LSALT s. The forecasts are quite wrong with alarming regularity. Another big scare is any risk of fog...beware.
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I'm not saying that a PPL cannot safely carry PAX! Who oversees this PPL pilot to ensure that they are really upto the task though?
Can someone please answer me this, are PAX required to sign some type of indemnity (similar to that of warbird/adventure flights)? Are the PAX actually aware that Angel Flight does not hold an AOC and therefore accountable to the standards of their pilots?
If the PAX are fully aware, then that's fine (not just a fineprint somewhere).
Can someone please answer me this, are PAX required to sign some type of indemnity (similar to that of warbird/adventure flights)? Are the PAX actually aware that Angel Flight does not hold an AOC and therefore accountable to the standards of their pilots?
If the PAX are fully aware, then that's fine (not just a fineprint somewhere).
there needs to be a large amount of facts injected into this thread, I will try with some.
Who oversees the pilots........ CASA, the same folk who oversee Tiger, QF and the rest of us. Who overseas my hangar mate (72) who does the odd Angel Flight? Well for near 50 years it was QF, and CASA, and as you point out one day its him, next its me, and some days its a old blokes who may or may not be the most skilled in judgement or whatever. This may well be one of them.
Are the pax informed, ABSOLUTELY......fully, and if you did some homework you would learn a whole heap more.
If the folk who receive the charitable works of others had to go by RFDS.....they would not. Kids who need follow up care or dialysis do not qualify, nor could RFDS cope with it all.
I agree your heart is in the right place, but its far from reality. One could argue that during the many long drives all these folk would have made over the years how many would have been killed in a car crash, given many are old, sick and tired mums etc etc. Despite GA stats I think the folk are at less risk. Hard to prove but a gut feeling.
Again shooting from the hip, this guy should have pulled the pin, stayed in a motel. AF WILL pick up the tab for all concerned. They do not push folk to fly and will discourage it. At the end of the day its up to the PIC.
Hope that helps a bit.
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Sorry, I'm trying to keep up, but where exactly does this fit in?
TriMedGroup is a good example of an organisation that I applaud with the infrastructure they are putting in place.
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I had the pleasure and honour of meeting and talking at length with Nancy Bird-Walton. Indeed she saw the hoplessness of looking after a mob of young studs out for a good time in Perth. A person of immense probity she has, with her kindness, enabled her inbuilt and beautiful humanity to evolve into the concept of Angel Flight sponsored by Bill Bristow. (whether Bill knows it or not).
The way some talk here, her exploits to save people in "DAY" VFR aircraft would be damned.
But then again, we had mercy flights then when people were merciful and DCA were understanding and benevolent.
People are basically good. It's up to CASA to make them bad.
Unless this matter was a direct threat to your well-being..... well, you know....
The way some talk here, her exploits to save people in "DAY" VFR aircraft would be damned.
But then again, we had mercy flights then when people were merciful and DCA were understanding and benevolent.
People are basically good. It's up to CASA to make them bad.
Unless this matter was a direct threat to your well-being..... well, you know....
Jabawocky.. Thanks for clearing a few things up for me.
I think sunfish and bankstown boy are getting the interpreting me the wrong way. I'm not saying PPL's or any other licence holder for that matter are incompetent. I am suggesting that conducting flights for an organisation that 'task' you, add a perceived commercial pressure that would not otherwise be there. How that is managed is the point I was trying to make in a roundabout way.
I think sunfish and bankstown boy are getting the interpreting me the wrong way. I'm not saying PPL's or any other licence holder for that matter are incompetent. I am suggesting that conducting flights for an organisation that 'task' you, add a perceived commercial pressure that would not otherwise be there. How that is managed is the point I was trying to make in a roundabout way.
Havick raises an interesting point. The word being TASKED. This word brings subtle, but not inconsiderable pressures of their own.
Ive regularly had to ferry aircraft at short notice for maintenance, often at the end of the day. "it has to be there" being the implication. Either the a/c is not IFr or I'm not current, an hr of daylight left when the boss pops in and says get the aircraft down to maintenance pronto. Murphies law dictates the wx will be marginal too. Not NVFR able The pressure is on, you feel it intensely.
A few times, I've had to stand my ground and say no. Much to the boss displeasure. If there is a flight where you will make a cockup, this is it. A few times after take off, I have said to myself WTF am I doing.
I can image the pilot, would have felt the same pressure. 4pm at EN, low wx, EoD 6ish and ETA very close to EoD. Low cloud, rising terrain, NVFR. The pressure of getting a not well pax home. In this scenario, there is zero margin for error. Even the most experianced pilots can fall victim of this subtle build up of pressures.
Unfortunately, on this instance all the holes in the cheese lined up.
Ive regularly had to ferry aircraft at short notice for maintenance, often at the end of the day. "it has to be there" being the implication. Either the a/c is not IFr or I'm not current, an hr of daylight left when the boss pops in and says get the aircraft down to maintenance pronto. Murphies law dictates the wx will be marginal too. Not NVFR able The pressure is on, you feel it intensely.
A few times, I've had to stand my ground and say no. Much to the boss displeasure. If there is a flight where you will make a cockup, this is it. A few times after take off, I have said to myself WTF am I doing.
I can image the pilot, would have felt the same pressure. 4pm at EN, low wx, EoD 6ish and ETA very close to EoD. Low cloud, rising terrain, NVFR. The pressure of getting a not well pax home. In this scenario, there is zero margin for error. Even the most experianced pilots can fall victim of this subtle build up of pressures.
Unfortunately, on this instance all the holes in the cheese lined up.
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I am not a member of Angel Flight, but they deserve our support, starting with a retraction from you.
I say again, delete your posts and I'll delete mine as well.
I say again, delete your posts and I'll delete mine as well.
When I used to fly "charters" for Ansett when their primary aircraft broke down we were required by law to disclose that it was a not an Ansett flight as such, that it was a charter flight blah blah blah. It may as well have been in Russian because bottom line is that no one probably had a clue what we were on about anyway and probably didn't care.
There is no difference here. People expect a certain level of safety when they step aboard an aircraft.
I understand fully what Angel Flight is, what it does and the benefit it provides. My concern is that a young girl is dead, her mother critical. I dont often vent on PPrune but I am angry. You cannot fly a single engine passenger charter at night under the regulations let alone night and IFR. Why couldnt these people be afforded, or expect to be afforded that same level of safety even if it is a Private Operation? Do they understand fully the difference between Private, Airwork or Charter. Are they given a copy of CAR 206 to peruse along with their safety briefing card? People all over this thread are saying that the weather was bad, the departure time never would of allowed them to arrive in daylight. Where was that final layer of protection that would have terminated this flight before it departed?
If you actually read my post then you might see I made no such comments as you are referring to. I wanted to know what the checks and balances are. A point you seem to have missed. Again the point of my post now.
As for my last comment, I won't withdraw that.
Angel Flight as I said is a noble idea and a worthwhile and important charity but in view of last nights events it needs to look at itself and its operations to see where improvements can be made. Its no different to what any operation would do in the same instance.
