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OzRunways 2.whoa!

Old 16th Jun 2011, 00:50
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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I flew from Mildura yesterday with Ozrunways 2 on an iPad2. It lost GPS a bit further than Ouyen and didn't regain it until past Bendigo on the way to Melbourne. The programme seems to have a dead reckoning feature, because the aircraft symbol kept tracking (erratically) for a while after the GPS signal was lost and a track & ground speed continued to be displayed long after signal was lost. Its the first time I've used it and I'm not fluent with it yet, but it doesn't appear that there is any indication of GPS integrity. I think this is poisonous. The other thing that bothers me is that despite having loaded the VIC ERC chart on the ground the night before (which I thought saved it locally), I could not access it in flight. The iPad was clearly looking to download it but couldn't due to lack of reception. This is probably operator error, but it turns the iPad into the usefulness of a brick if you slip up.

I had Jepp FliteDeck running beside the iPad on my LS800 and (at least from an IFR perspective) its seems more stable and changes pages / setup faster & more simply with a clear GPS integrity indication and greater setup flexibility. But its not a VFR device in any way.

Having said that, Ozrunways seems a useful VFR device. In my opinion it requires an external bluetooth GPS. If that GPS had a signal monitoring function it would address the bulk of my concerns.
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 01:49
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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AKRO is right a GPS integrity message is needed before there is an accident, especially if there is a DR capability built in.

My marine software has a voice message - "GPS Failure" when its lost.
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 06:03
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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I was using it on my iphone today ( on the train ) , and it did tell me when the gps signal was good, poor or non existant..Top left corner green, yellow or red light. It also let me know what kind of error I could have been experiencing in metres.
It didnt go that well in the train, but have been playing with it (obsessively) since i downloaded it, and its been pretty accurate everywhere else. I can only assume the overhead wires were not being all that friendly to the signal?.
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 06:19
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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If I was smart enough to be able to upload photo's I'd show you a screen shot with a green dot, no airspeed or track data and the aeroplane icon pointing in a completely different direction than we were travelling. The green dot trial leading up to this point is erratic also, so it was clearly struggling before it gave up.
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 06:40
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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AKRO is right a GPS integrity message is needed before there is an accident, especially if there is a DR capability built in.
There is no DR capability built in. The app uses location data sent by the device. If the device thinks there is a good signal, it will display the position and the estimated error. If there is no signal, it will display "--" in the boxes, simple as that.

The internal GPS on the iPad 3G has shortcomings when going to places outside coverage, so best to get an external one. Some people report brilliant reception at FL350 and some report crappy performance at 4500ft.

Take note of the "Not for use in Air Navigation" people; your Gamin says a similar thing when you turn it on and press "Accept". Until CASA say otherwise, please use as informational/safety backup device - just like you're meant to do with your non-TSO'd Garmin.

Note: If CASA copy the FAA rules like they say they are doing now, then we may be able to remove the "Not for Air Navigation" message, but I'd suggest from reading the documents that there will still be a warning regarding use of "own-ship positon" features on maps. It may be more time again before they approve this, and it may be external GPS only. Who knows.
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 07:14
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Well said Shaggy.

People remember this is a $100 app on a "computer"

We can't expect it to perform miracles and if one relies on it and an accident occurs through said reliance, well then

Hell you have to pay $10,000 to get an IFR GPS that doesn't come close to the abilities of OR2. But that price is paid for how reliable it is "supposed" to be.

Cheers
rioncentu is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2011, 08:47
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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If I was smart enough to be able to upload photo's I'd show you a screen shot with a green dot, no airspeed or track data and the aeroplane icon pointing in a completely different direction than we were travelling. The green dot trial leading up to this point is erratic also, so it was clearly struggling before it gave up.
Can you email the images to [email protected]? We'd love to take a look at it.

If you ever notice any problems, you can take a screenshot of the iPad by pressing and holding the home and power buttons together until the screen flashes. The image will be in the photos app and from there you can email them to us.

Even better if you also have a video camera handy and can video the behaviour.

The more info we get, the more we can debug!

Thanks for your help and support, guys.
baswell is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2011, 11:27
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Have not seen the cone of silence yet, but I am amazed how well it works in my office, most gps struggle and this one works so it's no worse than others.

Keep up the good work!

40+ hour test coming up ove the next few weeks, will keep you posted enroute if Mrs Jaba will let me use the iPad.
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 11:44
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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a GPS integrity message is needed before there is an accident, especially if there is a DR capability built in.
My marine software has a voice message - "GPS Failure" when its lost.
Don't tell me.
You drive one of those cars that has engraved on the rear view mirror...objects that appear here are actually behind you!
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 18:52
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Capt Fathom, nope, it's just that the marine software has a dead reckoning mode. It is therefore important to know which mode you are in as confusion can prove fatal.

The voice alerts are very useful since I'm often sailing single handed with a lot of stuff to do.

Both in the air and on the water, I work on the old saw: "never pass up an opportunity to fix your position." GPS can sometimes do strange things and when that happens a pencil mark and a time on a paper chart are your best friend.

I've had that experience integrating my marine system with its Laptop, flux gate compass, gyro, GPS, integrated log and wind instruments and Autopilot. I can assure you that it is very disorienting when the various bits start disagreeing with each other, and the safest thing to do is turn everything off, get out the chart, and play with the toys when safely at anchor.

To put it another way "A man with one watch knows what time it is. A man with Two is never quite sure."

Anyway, hopefully at the end of the month I'll give the software and iPad a Two week workout with some outback touring. I'll be able to compare Ozrunways with the aircrafts TSO'd GPS and moving map system.
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 21:46
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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That's all a bit of an overkill for port Phillip Bay Sunny!
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Old 16th Jun 2011, 22:57
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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XXX:

That's all a bit of an overkill for port Phillip Bay Sunny!
Not the other day in the fog it wasn't, and a lot of my sailing is single handed. If i really want to stress the poor little PC, I make it play a DVD in one window while chart plotting in the other
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:39
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know if an external bluetooth GPS will work with a WiFi iPad2 with internal GPS and OzRunways?

There seems to be some doubt if this can be done without adding third party software from a non apple source.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:57
  #54 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
 
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Yes Sunfish:

GNS 5870 MFI GPS Bt Receiver ("WAAS" Enabled) or another called bad Elf. The former is Bluetooth and the later plugs into the charging port. I have heard both work well but the latter feels a little fragile. I am planning on buying the former and clipping it to the sun visor.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 20:46
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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As usual when I post a question on PPRuNe, I stumble over the answer myself a few minutes later.

The Dual XGPS150 works on Ipads 1 and 2, with or without GPS receivers, and I've ordered one.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 20:54
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone stock them or do you have to wait two weeks?
Jabawocky is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2011, 22:06
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Was just about top order a dual from sporty's, us$99.95
Any local suppliers/cheaper?
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 02:59
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Bas,
I have done 34 hours flying with it in the last week.
No real probs except there are issues with WAC charts and true positions at close zooms.
This might also be tied in with the occasional gap in map display at close zoom.
Will put a list together for you blokes.
185.
185skywagon is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2011, 04:10
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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I use a Haicom bluetooth GPS engine with the LS80 & Jeppview. I haven't tried it with the ipad yet. I got it from Johnny Appleseed who do mail order. There are heaps of them on ebay too.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2011, 08:20
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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No real probs except there are issues with WAC charts and true positions at close zooms.
My first instinct is to say: that's because the WACs are of poor quality! Have a look at Strathalbyn. Yeah, it's right on where two WACs were stitched together (Port Augusta and Adelaide) and it's clear it is marked in different locations on each map. Although usually close, I would take the true position of anything on a WAC with a pinch of salt... (something you are unlikely to notice when dead reckoning.)

That said: if you can find multiple point that are out of place in the same area, especially if you see roads not match up, there could be an issue with the geocoding of an individual map, so do let us know!

Bas.
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