RAA Increased Height, Weight and Water
JC....... a pair of egos looking for an audience !
Quit while you're ahead gentlemen.
There is no bloody difference in times to solo, or, times to completion between GA and RAA, - when you consider all the aspects.
A C152 is a whole lot easier to fly than a J-160. Which in my experienced opinion - renders the relative 'skills' arguement to the non-events file.
In the final washup, the student starting with RAA 3-axis, will be able to transition to GA after completing RAAus PC + pax endo + x/c , only requiring some IF and a couple more x/c's. The nett saving will be about $3000 to attain PPL.
Yes, RAAus is becoming the lower weight end of GA, and it's credibility will increase with the expansion of the syllabus, and the increasing of the instructing 'power'. You might be surprised at how many RAAus instructors are dual rated, and quite experienced - both sides of the fence.
happy days,
Quit while you're ahead gentlemen.
There is no bloody difference in times to solo, or, times to completion between GA and RAA, - when you consider all the aspects.
A C152 is a whole lot easier to fly than a J-160. Which in my experienced opinion - renders the relative 'skills' arguement to the non-events file.
In the final washup, the student starting with RAA 3-axis, will be able to transition to GA after completing RAAus PC + pax endo + x/c , only requiring some IF and a couple more x/c's. The nett saving will be about $3000 to attain PPL.
Yes, RAAus is becoming the lower weight end of GA, and it's credibility will increase with the expansion of the syllabus, and the increasing of the instructing 'power'. You might be surprised at how many RAAus instructors are dual rated, and quite experienced - both sides of the fence.
happy days,
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I couldn't be bothered arguing with you sunshine. However your post only reinforces what I have said about "elitism".
Quote:
one of the folk at RAA ops management
Now I'm not quiet sure what 100% of your views are and I'm unsure what I, or anyone else bagged you for, except for an unhealthy attitude toward RA-Aus, but I am concerned at the anectdotal evidence you post here today as coming from either of the two Ops Mgrs and purporting to be any sort of RA-Aus policy or dogma.
I can guarantee your claims will be subject to scrutiny tomorrow to ascertain what validity and what they specifically agreed with you on.
Quote:
one of the folk at RAA ops management
Now I'm not quiet sure what 100% of your views are and I'm unsure what I, or anyone else bagged you for, except for an unhealthy attitude toward RA-Aus, but I am concerned at the anectdotal evidence you post here today as coming from either of the two Ops Mgrs and purporting to be any sort of RA-Aus policy or dogma.
I can guarantee your claims will be subject to scrutiny tomorrow to ascertain what validity and what they specifically agreed with you on.
Let me ask you to think slowly about this.
1. Elitism. Total and utter bull****, get it through you thick skinned skull. There is not one bit of elitism in my comments regarding RAAus. I am a member too sunshine! Probably long before you! I think they have a great and wonderful part to play. But it needs to be played right.
2. Well, for a start read back on my posts, my views are the new privilleges are a great thing for RAA, indeed very good. However with privilleges comes responsibility. Just as they had mandatory HF courses to achieve an educational improvement, the new privilleges also need some form of education. Just like HF courses, across the whole membership, as many members were from around 20 years back and had nothing much in training since, this was a good move. I thought it was an excellent programme. And I think a smilar one now would be also. Many have no idea what a ERC is let alone how to read it or use it. Something agreed in todays discussion.
3. So if you have no idea what my views are, this just confirms YOU DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO ANYONE, least of all those you are debating with. instead you and your mate engage in name calling and other diversionary tactics when you are found wanting.
4. but I am concerned at the anectdotal evidence you post here today as coming from either of the two Ops Mgrs and purporting to be any sort of RA-Aus policy or dogma. Geez Frank you make yourself out to be a bigger fool than even us younger folk can do.
today was not anecdotal at all. no it was a classic case of Frank Arouet observing and reporting exactly how it was. Would you believe it. I reported it as it was. I used old fart has been techniques to bring you comments that were pearls of wisdom as done by your generation...........FFS Frank you can't get any clearer than that.5. Frank.........you also NEED TO PAY ATTENTION A BIT MORE NOW...... At no time did the said Ops guy say anything was RAA policy or about to be, nor did I say that was the case. Stop shooting from the hip.
What I said was........ .he almost word for word said EXACTLY what I have been saying on this thread. and........Remains to be seen what he can get done.So Frank, before you go off half cocked as usual and make a fool of yourself with RAAus Head Office folk, get your facts straight. Said person expressed the exact same views I did in this thread and had exactly the same concerns I shared in this thread. He also shared the same delight in the good things to come from these new privilleges.
SO CRANKY CRANKY.......he was not purporting to be any sort of RA-Aus policy or dogma. This was a private discussion with somebody who really knows his stuff. Get your facts straight Frank. It will surely bite you on the A$$.
I can guarantee your claims will be subject to scrutiny tomorrow to ascertain what validity and what they specifically agreed with you on.
If you want the truth, and I doubt you can handle the truth, phone me, you have my number. Phone me, and i will pass you onto said person with their permission of course so you can get it all from the two horses mouths. mine and His. If his concernes and views, as shared with me, eventually find their way to RAA board & policy, and if they result in training programmes, which they might, albeit a slim chance, will you get back on here with a public apology for claiming my observations were some form of mythical anecdote?
Ring me Frank.
By the way Frank.....you know that article that I reffered to earlier, DID YOU READ IT??????? Even if you did you probably will dismiss it as anecdotal
Well I can assure you RAAus did take the right action, with the lovely old chap, who I hope will be airborne again one day after some serious talks and training, but also the guy who trained him has had some serious action taken with respect to his approvals etc and will also be counselled.
I am sure Frank you would agree that RAAus have acted in the most desirable manner, and I beleieve.....from the msytical anecdotes told to me, by the horses mouth, they process is one of great fairness and understanding. I would say definately a job well done and one CASA could learn from. they have set the right example here.
I think RAAus with leadership like this will do far better than they will from a confrontational, head in sand, I am old and experienced there for know it all attitude that some would portray. And no I am not talking about some Gen Y kind of response to old folk. Just a realistic one from those who are older than me. Well done to RAAus
T28D, I stand by what I said. The current Hobart fleet thinks its gods gift to sailing, when all it really is is a bunch of amateurs no different from their Grandafthers, just tricked up with modern technology and materials.
To put it another way: I dislike all assertions that something is "grass roots" and something else is not, and similar assertions of the superiority of one form of activity or another.
It matters not what you fly or what you sail. You will be just as dead when you screw up.
To put it another way: I dislike all assertions that something is "grass roots" and something else is not, and similar assertions of the superiority of one form of activity or another.
It matters not what you fly or what you sail. You will be just as dead when you screw up.
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Sunfish, I don't think flying's for you. One minute you're condemning RA Aus, next you're joining SAAA, next you're throwing theory in the air to RA Aus people, then you decide this piece of trash is legitimate debate.
For everyone's information the guy died shortly after, and took out his best friend, when the aircraft broke up in flight.
Aeros are prohibited under RA Aus regulations, full stop.
The close up photos taken BEFORE the break up showed severely corroded tubes, attachments and cables.
The video in your post was just one of many grossly irresponsible incidents which occurred during the pilot's short ownership of the aircraft.
He took himself out before authority could reach him.
He was severely criticised by many RA Aus Pilots moved to express alarm and shown as an example of behaviour which should never be condoned, to the extent that members of his grieving family came into the discussion, and magnanimously agreed that although they loved him, the discussion was useful as an example to others.
Anyone who would use this video as an example of grass roots flying clearly doesn't understand the terms and belongs in a pond hiring a paddle boat.
For everyone's information the guy died shortly after, and took out his best friend, when the aircraft broke up in flight.
Aeros are prohibited under RA Aus regulations, full stop.
The close up photos taken BEFORE the break up showed severely corroded tubes, attachments and cables.
The video in your post was just one of many grossly irresponsible incidents which occurred during the pilot's short ownership of the aircraft.
He took himself out before authority could reach him.
He was severely criticised by many RA Aus Pilots moved to express alarm and shown as an example of behaviour which should never be condoned, to the extent that members of his grieving family came into the discussion, and magnanimously agreed that although they loved him, the discussion was useful as an example to others.
Anyone who would use this video as an example of grass roots flying clearly doesn't understand the terms and belongs in a pond hiring a paddle boat.
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Yep.... Dead and his mate.
This was also discussed yesterday as was the inglewood fly in. It was a great small town event at which in the beginning raa only yahooing was rife. This set bad examples to young drifter spinner types. After seeing some very poor circuit behavior a few years ago Mrs Jaba said we would not go back. Last year a friend of mine, A320 C&T went along and came back horrified at how this young drifter spinner was taking paying pax and doing aero's as per video. He noted poor attitude and defiance to some sound advice from someone who cut his teeth in PNG. Maintenance also appeared to be something treated the same way.
That evening he retold the story to me. Couple of days later drifter spinner and mate are killed.
Roll forward 12 months, RAA send ops guy to site and very few folk turned up. Maybe they knew eyes were watching or maybe folk had had enough of the yahooing. CASA were not seen to be there and if so they were not making themselves known unlike RAA ops who were in full colours.
Again, to RAA.
This was also discussed yesterday as was the inglewood fly in. It was a great small town event at which in the beginning raa only yahooing was rife. This set bad examples to young drifter spinner types. After seeing some very poor circuit behavior a few years ago Mrs Jaba said we would not go back. Last year a friend of mine, A320 C&T went along and came back horrified at how this young drifter spinner was taking paying pax and doing aero's as per video. He noted poor attitude and defiance to some sound advice from someone who cut his teeth in PNG. Maintenance also appeared to be something treated the same way.
That evening he retold the story to me. Couple of days later drifter spinner and mate are killed.
Roll forward 12 months, RAA send ops guy to site and very few folk turned up. Maybe they knew eyes were watching or maybe folk had had enough of the yahooing. CASA were not seen to be there and if so they were not making themselves known unlike RAA ops who were in full colours.
Again,
to RAA.
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Jabawocky;
I'll ring you this afternoon before I make any other phone calls to HQ RA-Aus.
Before I go for another appointment this morning may I say, you answered my post, that I put up in an effort to get the thread back on track after a personal and irrelevant spray by a well known trouble maker.
In your response you went on a fairly narrow track and failed to address any of the more salient points I made. One such was directed at differences in training and how poor RA-Aus seemed by comparison.
You then advise that a paid employee of RA-Aus and you have discussed matters in which he concurs with you 100%.
If you are now maintaining the discussion revolved around an incident involving the above featured Drifter and the apparant abuse of privelege taken by that pilot and somehow claim training would fix this sort of thing, I think both you and the Ops Mgr in question should look at some historical GA fatalaties caused by stupidity.
There is no way any training can address this sort of thing and regulatory punishments only serve to warm people who probably wouldn't carry out such actions anyway. It's the old story, the majority pay for the acts of a few.
It would be handy to know therefor what you refer to when you say he agreed with you 100% and why this particular discussion should be "hot off the press" as if some official statement was due for impending action.
I'll ring you this afternoon before I make any other phone calls to HQ RA-Aus.
Before I go for another appointment this morning may I say, you answered my post, that I put up in an effort to get the thread back on track after a personal and irrelevant spray by a well known trouble maker.
In your response you went on a fairly narrow track and failed to address any of the more salient points I made. One such was directed at differences in training and how poor RA-Aus seemed by comparison.
You then advise that a paid employee of RA-Aus and you have discussed matters in which he concurs with you 100%.
If you are now maintaining the discussion revolved around an incident involving the above featured Drifter and the apparant abuse of privelege taken by that pilot and somehow claim training would fix this sort of thing, I think both you and the Ops Mgr in question should look at some historical GA fatalaties caused by stupidity.
There is no way any training can address this sort of thing and regulatory punishments only serve to warm people who probably wouldn't carry out such actions anyway. It's the old story, the majority pay for the acts of a few.
It would be handy to know therefor what you refer to when you say he agreed with you 100% and why this particular discussion should be "hot off the press" as if some official statement was due for impending action.
Shrike and others, all I am saying is that flying is flying. It matters not whether it is in an A380 or a hang glider. The results of failure to respect the activity are exactly the same.
Following from that, I take exception to the assertion that "grass roots" flying is somehow superior and that folk "learned about flying" in some special way from some provider and that the rules of safe airmanship apply to them in a different way to say, someone who is flying a C172.
To put it another way, if you don't consider the same precautions as the Pilot of an A380, albeit in a very different way, then it is you that are going to be the next headline maker.
Personally, I don't like the "rag and stick" ultralights since they remind me of the Quicksilver hang glider I built and crashed circa 1973.
Following from that, I take exception to the assertion that "grass roots" flying is somehow superior and that folk "learned about flying" in some special way from some provider and that the rules of safe airmanship apply to them in a different way to say, someone who is flying a C172.
To put it another way, if you don't consider the same precautions as the Pilot of an A380, albeit in a very different way, then it is you that are going to be the next headline maker.
Personally, I don't like the "rag and stick" ultralights since they remind me of the Quicksilver hang glider I built and crashed circa 1973.
Jaba's RAA bash thread...
Methinks its a bit unfair using the Drifter prang to attack RAA...
Hmmm..
...extra loads from aero's dont help though.
Anybody who reads the crash comics or spends a couple of minutes on youtube knows its not just RAA pilots/aircraft which prang....
Wing falls off, 20 dead...
"Chalk's Ocean Airways Flight 101 was an aircraft crash that occurred off Miami Beach, Florida, in the United States on December 19, 2005. All 20passengers and crew on board the 1947 Grumman G-73T Turbin Mallard died in the crash, which was attributed to metal fatigue on the starboard wing resulting in separation of the wing from the fuselage."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk%27s_Ocean_Airways_Flight_101
Video of a large jet pranging when some mild aero's go wrong. Seven dead...
.
the aircraft broke up in flight...
The close up photos taken BEFORE the break up showed severely corroded tubes, attachments and cables.
The close up photos taken BEFORE the break up showed severely corroded tubes, attachments and cables.
...extra loads from aero's dont help though. Anybody who reads the crash comics or spends a couple of minutes on youtube knows its not just RAA pilots/aircraft which prang....
Wing falls off, 20 dead...
"Chalk's Ocean Airways Flight 101 was an aircraft crash that occurred off Miami Beach, Florida, in the United States on December 19, 2005. All 20passengers and crew on board the 1947 Grumman G-73T Turbin Mallard died in the crash, which was attributed to metal fatigue on the starboard wing resulting in separation of the wing from the fuselage."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk%27s_Ocean_Airways_Flight_101
Video of a large jet pranging when some mild aero's go wrong. Seven dead...
.
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If you are now maintaining the discussion revolved around an incident involving the above featured Drifter and the apparant abuse of privelege taken by that pilot and somehow claim training would fix this sort of thing, I think both you and the Ops Mgr in question should look at some historical GA fatalaties caused by stupidity.
Two different posts ....two different incidents. I did discuss the drifter thing much later as it came up in discussion later. That being said I had no intention of it being mentioned in this thread at all and it was rather ironic that Sunfish posted that video. Rather funny really that Sunfish thinks a bit the same way...and as yet I have never met nor spoken with him. If I ever do it should be interesting as I think I could learn a lot from him and his experience.
Interesting I had a phone call from another RAA instructor today, guess what he said.........RAA really need a training programme to educate what the new privilleges and so on mean and how to comply because a great number do not understand what it all means. For example, not transponder equipped to be aware of avoiding Class E.
Frank.....considering your NON POSITION on the board, maybe you can affect change for good things.
Binghi Buzz Bomber
You are muck raking, so quite it. I am not RAA bashing one bit. When you add something constructive to the thread regardless of whether I agree or not, I will engage in debate. Otherwise, give it a rest. We are all aware of how the three of you operate with diversions, rude or name calling comments just to deflect the spotlight from short comings in your flawed arguments.
If you are a moron in RAA....I'll be on your case.
If you are a moron in GA....I'll be on your case.
If you are a moron in RPT....I'll be on your case.
If you are a moron on PPRuNe....I'll be on your case.
I do not discriminate based on which camp you are in. Morons are morons. Which one are you?
via Jabawocky;
Binghi Buzz Bomber
You are muck raking, so quite it. I am not RAA bashing one bit. When you add something constructive to the thread regardless of whether I agree or not, I will engage in debate. Otherwise, give it a rest. We are all aware of how the three of you operate with diversions, rude or name calling comments just to deflect the spotlight from short comings in your flawed arguments.
Binghi Buzz Bomber
You are muck raking, so quite it. I am not RAA bashing one bit. When you add something constructive to the thread regardless of whether I agree or not, I will engage in debate. Otherwise, give it a rest. We are all aware of how the three of you operate with diversions, rude or name calling comments just to deflect the spotlight from short comings in your flawed arguments.
.
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It won't matter in the end when part 91 in its' present form goes through !
Mind you its taken me all this time to read some (not all) of it and I can assure you its a cure for insomnia. So given the rate at which others around here read things like this, that might be important, I would not expect too many informed and intelligent replies any time soon.
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SpriteAH, you started this mess, and since you apparently fly both RA and GA, couldn't you have answered your own question?
Why not discuss something positive such as simplying and commonising regulations, and looking at what training requirements are needed for every step up the ladder?
Why not discuss something positive such as simplying and commonising regulations, and looking at what training requirements are needed for every step up the ladder?
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A navex is a navex is a navex.
A RA-Aus cross country endorsement includes what is required of any VFR flight in whatever airspace. Perhaps to date everybody just flew B050 OCTA. Perhaps with extra vertical airspace now a focus should be on hemispherical levels in those navex and endorsements. If it makes any signifcant difference some reinforcement about the equipment and pilot needs to fly in whatever airspace could also be included.
It would just seem like common sense and not worthy of any great drama for this to be an education thing that begins with RA-Aus and it's instructors and if a simple reminder wasn't put in the magazine by either Ops managers, they would be failing in their responsibilities.
Now is there a drama about over water flights in any single engine aircraft and is there any drama about a weight increase to 600KG for RA-Aus?
May as well get it out in the open now.
A RA-Aus cross country endorsement includes what is required of any VFR flight in whatever airspace. Perhaps to date everybody just flew B050 OCTA. Perhaps with extra vertical airspace now a focus should be on hemispherical levels in those navex and endorsements. If it makes any signifcant difference some reinforcement about the equipment and pilot needs to fly in whatever airspace could also be included.
It would just seem like common sense and not worthy of any great drama for this to be an education thing that begins with RA-Aus and it's instructors and if a simple reminder wasn't put in the magazine by either Ops managers, they would be failing in their responsibilities.
Now is there a drama about over water flights in any single engine aircraft and is there any drama about a weight increase to 600KG for RA-Aus?
May as well get it out in the open now.
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Frank now you are coming around to what we have been saying
You are quite right ...a navex is exactly that, no matter who.
They were supposed to and many did not, nor did they comply, but thats because they were not well informed and educated.
Yep you betcha ..........but what about all those folk who have not seen Nav training in the last 25 years....or those who travel far and wide with the endo or any training? 
Now you are getting the picture
Ahhhhh common snese Frank, there are no issues there surely? But there are and those who need bringing up to speed don't read and if they do don't always believe it applies to them. Look at Tizz's continual writings and frustrations.
I think you are progressing well Frank. Good work
Over water and 600kg, how about you champion that one for the team huh?
You are quite right ...a navex is exactly that, no matter who.
Perhaps to date everybody just flew B050 OCTA
Perhaps with extra vertical airspace now a focus should be on hemispherical levels in those navex and endorsements.
..........but what about all those folk who have not seen Nav training in the last 25 years....or those who travel far and wide with the endo or any training? Now you are getting the picture
It would just seem like common sense and not worthy of any great drama for this to be an education thing that begins with RA-Aus and it's instructors and if a simple reminder wasn't put in the magazine by either Ops managers, they would be failing in their responsibilities.
But there are and those who need bringing up to speed don't read and if they do don't always believe it applies to them. Look at Tizz's continual writings and frustrations.I think you are progressing well Frank. Good work
Over water and 600kg, how about you champion that one for the team huh?
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So now we have a polarised solution:
You two solving the "problems" in a couple of thread posts.
CASA attempting to do the same in a gazillion words, in a gazillion clauses, with a gazillion amendments, in a gazillion documents scattered into a gazillion places.
You two solving the "problems" in a couple of thread posts.
CASA attempting to do the same in a gazillion words, in a gazillion clauses, with a gazillion amendments, in a gazillion documents scattered into a gazillion places.