C310 Down in the TIWI's
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What Mentalist is verbalising is what most of us think.
The area where the aircraft crashed was only a short dist. from the threshold.
Anyone who has spent any time in light twins (310, b58, 402-4, chief/nava) know that when an engine goes these poor things dont perform.
Anyone who has spent any time in GA knows that maintenance is not always the best and that things sometimes go "overlooked".
When we see a tragedy like this, naturally we all suspect EFATO and a subsequent Vmca.
Most of us however, dont pass these suspicions off as fact; preferring to wait for the official investigation.
Be prepared however.........for more 'backseat conclusions' from the 'faceless experts'.
So many of us have eagerly jumped into a 30+ year light twin to get those multi hours up. The poor OEI performance is just a risk that is accepted for those hours.
And most of us passed through without any major incidents like EFATO in a light twin.
Some of us however, don't.
To that young pilot - Blue skies and tail winds. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
Eternity.
The area where the aircraft crashed was only a short dist. from the threshold.
Anyone who has spent any time in light twins (310, b58, 402-4, chief/nava) know that when an engine goes these poor things dont perform.
Anyone who has spent any time in GA knows that maintenance is not always the best and that things sometimes go "overlooked".
When we see a tragedy like this, naturally we all suspect EFATO and a subsequent Vmca.
Most of us however, dont pass these suspicions off as fact; preferring to wait for the official investigation.
Be prepared however.........for more 'backseat conclusions' from the 'faceless experts'.
So many of us have eagerly jumped into a 30+ year light twin to get those multi hours up. The poor OEI performance is just a risk that is accepted for those hours.
And most of us passed through without any major incidents like EFATO in a light twin.
Some of us however, don't.
To that young pilot - Blue skies and tail winds. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
Eternity.
Last edited by eternity; 6th Feb 2011 at 06:55. Reason: Wine=spelling mistakes
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eternity
The real thing is different. In your time flying 520,s 540,s 550, etc have you had one breach a crankcase?
If this is the situation it will be readily apparent.
Have you, as a young pilot seen rising EGTs and thought (oh hell) I must have forgotten the cowl flaps and immediately reach down to find the cowl flap handle.
Live a little.
The real thing is different. In your time flying 520,s 540,s 550, etc have you had one breach a crankcase?
If this is the situation it will be readily apparent.
Have you, as a young pilot seen rising EGTs and thought (oh hell) I must have forgotten the cowl flaps and immediately reach down to find the cowl flap handle.
Live a little.
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Eternity,
Anyone who has spent any time in a C310 with one POB will know that it will easily climb OEI.
You guys a so full of crap it is embarrasing to read, there is no evidence, no credible witnesses and yet you already know all the answers, nice job.
Condolences to all involved.
Anyone who has spent any time in a C310 with one POB will know that it will easily climb OEI.
You guys a so full of crap it is embarrasing to read, there is no evidence, no credible witnesses and yet you already know all the answers, nice job.
Condolences to all involved.
Grandpa Aerotart
Eternity he was alone...they may not perform very well at MTOW but they most certainly DO perform perfectly adequately lightly loaded. If EFATO is the finding then it won't be the aircrafts fault that it ended badly.
Is that rising terrain I see off the end of the runway - it was a night departure?
Edit I did not put the definition of EFATO in brackets after it - how weird
Is that rising terrain I see off the end of the runway - it was a night departure?
Edit I did not put the definition of EFATO in brackets after it - how weird
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Very sad, To those very close I feel for you.
Have great respect for the BA boys.
Rummers are great but not a fact, those that speak way too early should hold their breath coz crapppp does stick.
The object is to be NO repeat no matter what the reason.
Life is special! Go well young man.
Have great respect for the BA boys.
Rummers are great but not a fact, those that speak way too early should hold their breath coz crapppp does stick.
The object is to be NO repeat no matter what the reason.
Life is special! Go well young man.
Sprucegoose
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What Mentalist is verbalising is what most of us think.
When we see a tragedy like this, naturally we all suspect EFATO and a subsequent Vmca.
I think you will find the answer is far simpler...
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Anyone who has spent any time in GA knows that maintenance is not always the best and that things sometimes go "overlooked".
I have been involved in GA as both an LAME and pilot for over 30 years. After working all round the world on various contracts and in places in the Pacific, Asia and Africa I have noticed that thing do get overlooked.
AND where I am pointing the finger ........ the worst events are invariably by the young, and not so young pilots. A defect is a defect, you cannot ignore it during the pre-flight, you cannot carry it, mentioning it to your buddies.
I have worked on the 310's in Darwin... I could not believe some of the things overlooked... the guys in the hangar can't fix it if they are not aware of it.
For example, a seat recline issue is not fixed by jamming the control lock in the mechanism. Seat failures cause accidents and they occur at the worst possible time, just after rotate.......
Check the stats, seat failures versus engine failures (not the pilot induced ones but a genuine failure)....
I am not suggesting seat failures cause explosions mid-air mind you... I think the jury is still out on that one.
I am just saying that if we want to keep 30 yo aircraft to continue running in good working order then we all have a part to play.
I certify many aircraft engines for operation beyond recommended TBO.
After years of working on them, asking questions of the overhaul facility etc I have a fair idea of what causes engine failures... a genuine failure is a very rare occurrence.
A sad event and I feel for you guys up there.. difficult times for sure.
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The little I know. A pretty regular charter at this time of the year to transport people home to their Island after the footy.
Well I don't know? , I have seen a number of young guys killed in airplanes over he years with their company chasing the dollar.
Well I don't know? , I have seen a number of young guys killed in airplanes over he years with their company chasing the dollar.
Thread Starter
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Eternity & Baron Beeza, Thanks for putting my short prod into what I was trying to get across. If it was XGX from BA then condolences to the new pilot and a sad day for the company who struggles against the big ones and still gets the job done. I personally have over 40hrs on XGX when it was over at MPA and have worked for BA a few years ago. I also have been in/out of YBTI over 80 times and YSNB over 100 times in 3 years taking freight and pax so I should know the strips pretty well up on the Tiwi's. Have also flown the late M.Rioli a few times as well.
Yes a C310 will perform with 1 POB, but what if it was not clean? They tend to get about 100-150fpm if your lucky. Add gusting winds/Xwinds, a bit of wind shear at the north end of the runway? What if it wasn't setup for one engine climb? What if he thought that he could land straight ahead? What if he was disorientated by the dark and cloudy night? We Can all speculate until the cows come home but it won't change the fact the the aircraft is nearly 30+ years old. Lets just wait for the ATSB/Coroners report before we get onto the age V maintenace of old aircraft.I have flown it's sister ships on more than one occasion and they weren't much better. TBE being the better one.Some problems you can wear as your experience with the type accumilates. (450+hrs C310 in YPDN)
Yes a C310 will perform with 1 POB, but what if it was not clean? They tend to get about 100-150fpm if your lucky. Add gusting winds/Xwinds, a bit of wind shear at the north end of the runway? What if it wasn't setup for one engine climb? What if he thought that he could land straight ahead? What if he was disorientated by the dark and cloudy night? We Can all speculate until the cows come home but it won't change the fact the the aircraft is nearly 30+ years old. Lets just wait for the ATSB/Coroners report before we get onto the age V maintenace of old aircraft.I have flown it's sister ships on more than one occasion and they weren't much better. TBE being the better one.Some problems you can wear as your experience with the type accumilates. (450+hrs C310 in YPDN)
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JS was an exceptional young bloke. He had more maturity when he started flying at 16 than many people twice his age and was an exceptional student. I feel sure that if there had been any possible way to survive whatever happened to his aircraft, he would have.
RIP mate.
RIP mate.
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Mental case..
N you have hrs on this type??
QUOTE__
Yes a C310 will perform with 1 POB, but what if it was not clean? They tend to get about 100-150fpm if your lucky. Add gusting winds/Xwinds, a bit of wind shear at the north end of the runway? What if it wasn't setup for one engine climb? What if he thought that he could land straight ahead? What if he was disorientated by the dark and cloudy night?
What is all the training for???
N you have hrs on this type??
QUOTE__
Yes a C310 will perform with 1 POB, but what if it was not clean? They tend to get about 100-150fpm if your lucky. Add gusting winds/Xwinds, a bit of wind shear at the north end of the runway? What if it wasn't setup for one engine climb? What if he thought that he could land straight ahead? What if he was disorientated by the dark and cloudy night?
What is all the training for???
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non reflectave (sic) people
your (sic) an aboriginal vb drinking pilot???
You did not decide to leave but could not maintain employment
By all means keep up the debate with facts and speculation but damn it lay off the unprofessional and disrespectful banter; if your pointer hovers over the submit button and you wonder whether or not it's a good idea to click it... DON'T!
I sit here reading posts and awaiting a real report; anxious to hear about another way these damned machines can get me.
Safety always folks,
FRQ CB
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My condolences to family and friends of the deceased pilot.
My total respect to members of the Nguiu community for willingly spending a night in mangrove swamps to protect the body of the pilot from the numerous crocs that infest that area. In many ways, members of the Aboriginal community have more respect for the dead than we supposedly better educated lot.
My total respect to members of the Nguiu community for willingly spending a night in mangrove swamps to protect the body of the pilot from the numerous crocs that infest that area. In many ways, members of the Aboriginal community have more respect for the dead than we supposedly better educated lot.
Check Attitude
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I think Howard Hughes and Chuck are closer to the mark.
This has all the hallmarks of a classic "Black Hole Departure" .
Take off was at night, in an area devoid of ground lighting, with possible showers.
Somatogravic illusions can create a sensation of over rotating, causing a pilot to relax back pressure.
An empty C310, Baron, Chieftain or Shrike can accellerate quite rapidly, this is the intro to the somatogravic illusion,
with the vestibular senses reacting to the accelleration.
The typical Black Hole departure accident scenario is usually a gentle descent with a tendancy to veer slightly left.
Impact is typically around 1.4 km from rotation.
Recent examples are the Chieftain at Bathurst, and a while back, the C90 at Wondai, Qld.
Training can make the pilot aware of the somatogravic effect, and the defense is attitude flying.
After lift off the aircraft is set up for 8 degrees nose up while in the take off configuration and,
after gear / flap retraction, an attitude of 12 degrees nose up should be established.
These simple attitudes guarantee Blue Line (Vyse).
Performance is monitored against the VSI and altimeter, and slight attitude corrections ensure the desired airspeed.
Very few GA training outfits teach attitude flying, this can be verified by watching twins taking off and held in a level attitude to attain blue line.
Lester Neideck, Sunshine Coast Air Charter was probably one of the last to teach attitude flying.
When pilots finally get to airlines, that is usually their first intro to setting attitude flying.
This has all the hallmarks of a classic "Black Hole Departure" .
Take off was at night, in an area devoid of ground lighting, with possible showers.
Somatogravic illusions can create a sensation of over rotating, causing a pilot to relax back pressure.
An empty C310, Baron, Chieftain or Shrike can accellerate quite rapidly, this is the intro to the somatogravic illusion,
with the vestibular senses reacting to the accelleration.
The typical Black Hole departure accident scenario is usually a gentle descent with a tendancy to veer slightly left.
Impact is typically around 1.4 km from rotation.
Recent examples are the Chieftain at Bathurst, and a while back, the C90 at Wondai, Qld.
Training can make the pilot aware of the somatogravic effect, and the defense is attitude flying.
After lift off the aircraft is set up for 8 degrees nose up while in the take off configuration and,
after gear / flap retraction, an attitude of 12 degrees nose up should be established.
These simple attitudes guarantee Blue Line (Vyse).
Performance is monitored against the VSI and altimeter, and slight attitude corrections ensure the desired airspeed.
Very few GA training outfits teach attitude flying, this can be verified by watching twins taking off and held in a level attitude to attain blue line.
Lester Neideck, Sunshine Coast Air Charter was probably one of the last to teach attitude flying.
When pilots finally get to airlines, that is usually their first intro to setting attitude flying.
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Sad sad news about JS, a great guy!
I know that JS was a BA pilot, but isn't XGX a CA aircraft, they took it over from MPA and had it based in Tindal for a while. From memory I though that BA and CA lend each other pilots and aircraft when required. Although that might have changed over the years.
I guess in the end it doesn't really mater, a young life has been lost.
I know that JS was a BA pilot, but isn't XGX a CA aircraft, they took it over from MPA and had it based in Tindal for a while. From memory I though that BA and CA lend each other pilots and aircraft when required. Although that might have changed over the years.
I guess in the end it doesn't really mater, a young life has been lost.
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Mainframe, excellent post.
Whether or not this was the case it is something for all to think about.
A C310 was destroyed [pilot OK] on a night take-off at Longreach about 22-23 years ago exactly because of this. In talking to pilot later [I was his ex CP, then newly in airlines] he described his training and it was crap [by that ex real estate salesman at Coolangatta]
At night attitude flying after rotate until above 500' and on x-wind is the go!
Whether or not this was the case it is something for all to think about.
A C310 was destroyed [pilot OK] on a night take-off at Longreach about 22-23 years ago exactly because of this. In talking to pilot later [I was his ex CP, then newly in airlines] he described his training and it was crap [by that ex real estate salesman at Coolangatta]
At night attitude flying after rotate until above 500' and on x-wind is the go!