More Lack of Military Leadership
Thread Starter
More Lack of Military Leadership
I have started a new thread on this one as it is quite separate to the Williamtown issue, although it does lean towards the same problems.
Over twenty years ago, ICAO introduced airspace classifications for good, proven safety reasons, i.e. pilots would know what type of service they would get in a particular airspace – all just good commonsense.
In the USA, the FAA was one of the first to move to the ICAO classifications followed by Australia a little after 1991. How have the Australian military gone? I suggest you look at Richmond airspace on the current VTC. Yes, it says C lower level 4,500 feet, A lower level flight level 180” but when it comes to surface to 2,500 feet, it just says “Richmond Military Control”.
The military told me over fifteen years ago that they were going to move to the ICAO classifications like the USA, Canada and Europe, but they haven’t done this.
I don’t think there is any better example of the complete lack of decision-making ability within the military. Imagine – they can’t even show the leadership to force through some letter classifications for existing airspace!
Of course I say “force through” because there will be a huge band of people saying, “it’s done us well in the past, we must never change it”.
Over twenty years ago, ICAO introduced airspace classifications for good, proven safety reasons, i.e. pilots would know what type of service they would get in a particular airspace – all just good commonsense.
In the USA, the FAA was one of the first to move to the ICAO classifications followed by Australia a little after 1991. How have the Australian military gone? I suggest you look at Richmond airspace on the current VTC. Yes, it says C lower level 4,500 feet, A lower level flight level 180” but when it comes to surface to 2,500 feet, it just says “Richmond Military Control”.
The military told me over fifteen years ago that they were going to move to the ICAO classifications like the USA, Canada and Europe, but they haven’t done this.
I don’t think there is any better example of the complete lack of decision-making ability within the military. Imagine – they can’t even show the leadership to force through some letter classifications for existing airspace!
Of course I say “force through” because there will be a huge band of people saying, “it’s done us well in the past, we must never change it”.
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In line with the response to your erroneous claims made in the Williamtown thread:- http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post6213767
Seeing as both the US and Australia administer Class C as per ICAO, what Exactly do YOU think the US Military does differently in terminal areas (airspace dimensions and services) to that of the RAAF ?
Seeing as both the US and Australia administer Class C as per ICAO, what Exactly do YOU think the US Military does differently in terminal areas (airspace dimensions and services) to that of the RAAF ?
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Dick, isn't it all about cost these days? Just like a business case in any organisation.
Maybe if you can work out how much it costs you to hold, multiply that by the number of trips you make and the associated environmental impact, blah, blah, then multiply by everyone else that uses it and then use that as an argument. After that, add in safety issues, demonstrate the number of aircraft that have been lost due to the diversions etc.
The way it is at the moment it would seem that you have a holiday house just south of Willy and you are complaining because it increases your trip time to your Sydney offices each day by 10 minutes (hypothetical example of course).
Maybe if you can work out how much it costs you to hold, multiply that by the number of trips you make and the associated environmental impact, blah, blah, then multiply by everyone else that uses it and then use that as an argument. After that, add in safety issues, demonstrate the number of aircraft that have been lost due to the diversions etc.
The way it is at the moment it would seem that you have a holiday house just south of Willy and you are complaining because it increases your trip time to your Sydney offices each day by 10 minutes (hypothetical example of course).
ICAO introduced airspace classifications for good, proven safety reasons, i.e. pilots would know what type of service they would get in a particular airspace – all just good commonsense.
The ONLY reason alphabet soupspace was invented was to facilitate the "Free in GE" mob. Martha told me so! Alphabet soupspace does not improve safety one iota, nor in most part, does it save any flippin' money. Get off it Dick.
I don’t think there is any better example of the complete lack of decision-making ability within the military. Imagine – they can’t even show the leadership to force through some letter classifications for existing airspace!
Kind of ironic - all this consultation with industry when all thats really needed is leadership to force it through.
I don't think there is any better example of the complete lack of introspective ability within the private aeroplane-owning fraternity.
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Not only Richmond - the dreaded Defence Closed Mind fraternity do the same thing at ALL the Military Control Zones. 
I'd tell them Dick, but I left the military and they ignore my closed mind.
I know - get your EXPERT submariner to ring up good ole Gus and tell him off...that should work - don't you think?
I'd tell them Dick, but I left the military and they ignore my closed mind.
I know - get your EXPERT submariner to ring up good ole Gus and tell him off...that should work - don't you think?
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Hey Mods,
Can we change the name of this thread to;
" Dick didn't like hearing the truth about his stupid proposal in the Williamtown Procedures thread, so he started a new one".
People should have a read of the thread below, where people have provided factual information of how Dick confused Radar procedures, ATC procedures and lots more. He even managed to throw in the Sea Sprite and even some dribble on Nuclear Subs ! Even when it was proven that he had confused many procedures, he accussed all and sundry of having closed minds, just becasue we didn't agree with him. He even demands people answer "HIS" questions whilst dodging others.
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...rocedures.html
Dick,
we get it that you don't like the ADF in any form. Keep on bagging them mate, I hope you never require their assiatance.
If the RIC airspace and the Williamtown issue is pissing you so bad, take up SCRAN's offer to speak to Chief of Air Force.
If you carried on like this in your beloved USA and hacked on their Military like you do here, you would be considered to be a traitor !
Can we change the name of this thread to;
" Dick didn't like hearing the truth about his stupid proposal in the Williamtown Procedures thread, so he started a new one".
People should have a read of the thread below, where people have provided factual information of how Dick confused Radar procedures, ATC procedures and lots more. He even managed to throw in the Sea Sprite and even some dribble on Nuclear Subs ! Even when it was proven that he had confused many procedures, he accussed all and sundry of having closed minds, just becasue we didn't agree with him. He even demands people answer "HIS" questions whilst dodging others.
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...rocedures.html
Dick,
we get it that you don't like the ADF in any form. Keep on bagging them mate, I hope you never require their assiatance.
If the RIC airspace and the Williamtown issue is pissing you so bad, take up SCRAN's offer to speak to Chief of Air Force.
If you carried on like this in your beloved USA and hacked on their Military like you do here, you would be considered to be a traitor !
Oh FFS!
Don't you people listen to anything.
Stop feeding this fecking idiot!
Go back to the last thread (the one so convieniently deflected by Dick) and read, re read, re read and re read again, what SCRAN wrote.
Then go read it again.
Then go read what Dick wrote in this and other countless, pointless displays of abject misery in threads about the same thing. Use you brains, read between the lines, think about it, the re read it again.
Then tab down to the bottom of this page, yes THIS PAGE and every other fecking page on pPrune and read this "As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions."
Read the last 4 words.
THEN RE READ THEM, THEN RE READ THEM AGAIN.
IT IS IN BIG RED FECKING LETTERS!!!
Then go read what SCRAN wrote....again.
I care not whether I get banned from here (in fact I welcome it). I have been doing the same job for 32 years and I still LOVE going to work. I dont think that there are too many people who can say that, but really, with all of this pointless ranting and raving about nothing, I'm over it.....thanks Dick!!! No, really, thanks....
You want to put GA back where it was, then keep you mouth shut. Go away. Bugger off. Go over to the USA and tool about until your heart's content, if you like it so much. Just piss off....please. You are and have done, more harm than good.
I've had enough.
I will say though, that I have been flying BK-WLM-TRE-thence north of there DCT for about the past 11 years, sometimes several time a week and not once, EVER, NEVER NOT FECKING NEVER EVER ONCE (although the route out over Glouster at 10000 was an exception, but pleasant nonetheless), have I ever been held, nor ever refused clearance.....EVER!
What's your fecking problem???
You wanna fly the lane, then fly the fecking lane. If you don't then ASK FOR FECKING CLEARANCE. It's not hard. It's not rocket science. Just do it and stop whining on this forum about how hard done by you are.
I shall miss this place, not Dick's utter garbage, but honest writings from true AIRMEN like Chimbu Chuckles, Forky, the tales of PNG, and other places so brilliantly told, sixties relic and airsupport's recent stories and excellent photos on the other thread, tinpis (always makes me laugh). I don't know any of you guys but I really wish I had had the chance to fly with you back then...just once would have done. Wally (yes even for a King Air pilot, still ok in my book), binos (rip mate!), and of course those two idiot brothers plazbot and chrisby (where did they go by the way??)....probably got jack of it like me...oh and SN3 Guppy - always, ALWAYS a treat to read your posts in TechLog and bro. gaunty, still probably lurking around somewhere
and the lovely Rose!!
Thanks so much Dick.
POB if you see this before its deleted ring me please.....same number
Adios
Don't you people listen to anything.
Stop feeding this fecking idiot!
Go back to the last thread (the one so convieniently deflected by Dick) and read, re read, re read and re read again, what SCRAN wrote.
Then go read it again.
Then go read what Dick wrote in this and other countless, pointless displays of abject misery in threads about the same thing. Use you brains, read between the lines, think about it, the re read it again.
Then tab down to the bottom of this page, yes THIS PAGE and every other fecking page on pPrune and read this "As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions."
Read the last 4 words.
THEN RE READ THEM, THEN RE READ THEM AGAIN.
IT IS IN BIG RED FECKING LETTERS!!!
Then go read what SCRAN wrote....again.
I care not whether I get banned from here (in fact I welcome it). I have been doing the same job for 32 years and I still LOVE going to work. I dont think that there are too many people who can say that, but really, with all of this pointless ranting and raving about nothing, I'm over it.....thanks Dick!!! No, really, thanks....
You want to put GA back where it was, then keep you mouth shut. Go away. Bugger off. Go over to the USA and tool about until your heart's content, if you like it so much. Just piss off....please. You are and have done, more harm than good.
I've had enough.
I will say though, that I have been flying BK-WLM-TRE-thence north of there DCT for about the past 11 years, sometimes several time a week and not once, EVER, NEVER NOT FECKING NEVER EVER ONCE (although the route out over Glouster at 10000 was an exception, but pleasant nonetheless), have I ever been held, nor ever refused clearance.....EVER!
What's your fecking problem???
You wanna fly the lane, then fly the fecking lane. If you don't then ASK FOR FECKING CLEARANCE. It's not hard. It's not rocket science. Just do it and stop whining on this forum about how hard done by you are.
I shall miss this place, not Dick's utter garbage, but honest writings from true AIRMEN like Chimbu Chuckles, Forky, the tales of PNG, and other places so brilliantly told, sixties relic and airsupport's recent stories and excellent photos on the other thread, tinpis (always makes me laugh). I don't know any of you guys but I really wish I had had the chance to fly with you back then...just once would have done. Wally (yes even for a King Air pilot, still ok in my book), binos (rip mate!), and of course those two idiot brothers plazbot and chrisby (where did they go by the way??)....probably got jack of it like me...oh and SN3 Guppy - always, ALWAYS a treat to read your posts in TechLog and bro. gaunty, still probably lurking around somewhere
and the lovely Rose!!Thanks so much Dick.
POB if you see this before its deleted ring me please.....same number
Adios
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Wait, maybe
Dicks grown up. No great fan but, methinks, he has a point.
What if the system is now in a minor fashion, impacting on his daily operations. Same as ours = Reality fix.
Lets be honest, in Perth, Sydney and a couple of other places, the 'military' have been creating expensive, even dangerous diversions for 'commercial traffic' to deal with.
(We do, as tax payer fund the buggers after all).
PITA really. What is it they have - 14 serviceable aircraft now. Whoo Hooo !!!. ( Minority group I reckon)
I agree with the American Navy attitude; what boundaries ??. (12 miles was our fearless leaders call, remember ?).
Everywhere else seems to be able to manage a whole lot more 'flying critters' than we do, without any of the fuss.
Welcome to the real world Dick. 'They' don't care who they stuff up; 'thunderstorm, weather divert!!. What ??. Sod off - (read the flaming NOTAM) - declare an emergency, ya GA tosser (also applies to VA and Big Q as well).
Recommend : Maree/ Tibuburra/ Leigh Creek or Alice`Springs as alternative bases. But nothing, absolutely nothing beats Mt Isa as a preferred base, nothing. Except the poor Darling's may leave the service and take up teaching jobs, or whatever. Lead to Serve, I wonder.
What if the system is now in a minor fashion, impacting on his daily operations. Same as ours = Reality fix.
Lets be honest, in Perth, Sydney and a couple of other places, the 'military' have been creating expensive, even dangerous diversions for 'commercial traffic' to deal with.
(We do, as tax payer fund the buggers after all).
PITA really. What is it they have - 14 serviceable aircraft now. Whoo Hooo !!!. ( Minority group I reckon)
I agree with the American Navy attitude; what boundaries ??. (12 miles was our fearless leaders call, remember ?).
Everywhere else seems to be able to manage a whole lot more 'flying critters' than we do, without any of the fuss.
Welcome to the real world Dick. 'They' don't care who they stuff up; 'thunderstorm, weather divert!!. What ??. Sod off - (read the flaming NOTAM) - declare an emergency, ya GA tosser (also applies to VA and Big Q as well).
Recommend : Maree/ Tibuburra/ Leigh Creek or Alice`Springs as alternative bases. But nothing, absolutely nothing beats Mt Isa as a preferred base, nothing. Except the poor Darling's may leave the service and take up teaching jobs, or whatever. Lead to Serve, I wonder.
Why don't we simplify the ICAO airspace classification?
Let's just go for controlled airspace (IFR separated from all other acft and VFR get traffic info) and uncontrolled airspace (IFR get traffic info on all other known acft, VFR do whatever they want) It's simple to understand, cheaper to operate and proven to work - plus none of Dick's highly paid American consultants required.
Let's just go for controlled airspace (IFR separated from all other acft and VFR get traffic info) and uncontrolled airspace (IFR get traffic info on all other known acft, VFR do whatever they want) It's simple to understand, cheaper to operate and proven to work - plus none of Dick's highly paid American consultants required.
topdrop,
my thoughts exactly. Why don't we just go back to the way it was before "alphabet soupspace" and just apply the KISS principle. You're either being controlled or not.
As for the control steps, they should also be widened out as they used to be in the distant past. It would help me and countless other PPRuNers in our day to day travels.
Clark y.
my thoughts exactly. Why don't we just go back to the way it was before "alphabet soupspace" and just apply the KISS principle. You're either being controlled or not.
As for the control steps, they should also be widened out as they used to be in the distant past. It would help me and countless other PPRuNers in our day to day travels.
Clark y.