CTC wheels up ldg
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As needed...
In training we all do what the training school/instructor requires of us. In my day, this was invariably mnemonics; and, in my opinion, unnecessarily complicated ones at that. As a student in early days a long time ago, I too, used to run through this long list of letters, rattling it all out so the instructor could hear how diligent I was. But in doing so I realised that each individual item was not being attended to. Enter the real world (aka the workplace) and my training continued in a different line. Watch an agricultural pilot at work, he does everything that is needed but nothing unnecessary, particularly in landing cycles of only a few minutes. A quick glance at fuel quantities, apply flaps and trim, a note of wind direction for control input and not a whole lot else. No incessant "hatches/harness" or "magnetos both on" checks. For way too long I suspect the schools have focussed on the methodology of the checks and not the actual physical items themselves, notwithstanding students inexperience of course.
Here's a novel idea. Why not have a gear unsafe light with one throttle closed and the horn with both closed. This would seem to cover things nicely. If I recall correctly some Pipers have this set up.
As for the horn sounding during a clean stall, really, how much stalling does an aircraft like this actually do compared with the total flight it does?. Not much in my experience. You're not teaching stalling at this stage of the training process, it's more an exercise in getting the student used to handling the aircraft. In most cases two clean stalls during the type intro and one during the type check out. A horn going in this situation isn't that much of an issue.
As for the horn sounding during a clean stall, really, how much stalling does an aircraft like this actually do compared with the total flight it does?. Not much in my experience. You're not teaching stalling at this stage of the training process, it's more an exercise in getting the student used to handling the aircraft. In most cases two clean stalls during the type intro and one during the type check out. A horn going in this situation isn't that much of an issue.
Last edited by 27/09; 9th Nov 2010 at 22:55.
Since my earlier post about a higher "zero thrust" setting, I have found out that a higher "zero thrust" setting will silence the horn, BUT it is not standard procedure to do so. How dumb is that?
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Hmmm, maybe a little balance needed here....
As an ex-CTCer, I don't recall completing an asymmetric cct in the DA42 where the "dead" engine power lever wasn't advanced to the point that the gear warning stopped operating (simulated feathered setting) once the dead engine had been simulated switched off; the usual pratice was for the instructor to do this so as to avoid the obvious trap that seems to have been assumed in the above posts. (It's also pretty irritating to listen to so why wouldn't you cancel it as soon as is sensible?). Admittedly this was a couple of years ago but I'd be surprised if the procedure has changed.
Clearly, someone's dropped what we assume to be a perfectly servicable aeroplane on the runway with the gear up, but it seems a little premature to make a whole series of sweeping statements about the quality of CTC's training / procedures based on very little fact.
Just my 2 cents worth.....
As an ex-CTCer, I don't recall completing an asymmetric cct in the DA42 where the "dead" engine power lever wasn't advanced to the point that the gear warning stopped operating (simulated feathered setting) once the dead engine had been simulated switched off; the usual pratice was for the instructor to do this so as to avoid the obvious trap that seems to have been assumed in the above posts. (It's also pretty irritating to listen to so why wouldn't you cancel it as soon as is sensible?). Admittedly this was a couple of years ago but I'd be surprised if the procedure has changed.
Clearly, someone's dropped what we assume to be a perfectly servicable aeroplane on the runway with the gear up, but it seems a little premature to make a whole series of sweeping statements about the quality of CTC's training / procedures based on very little fact.
Just my 2 cents worth.....
MATT
From what I have heard some instructors used to (perhaps still do) this but it is not standard procedure from what I have heard. The power setting required to silence the horn is slightly above that which has been determined to be the "true zero thrust" setting.
Would agree with you 100% on this
Currently it would seem it is standard procedure is to use "true zero thrust", as is evidenced by the racket that can be heard every time a radio transmision is made while they are operating single engine.
I think there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show that the pilots had most likely been desensitised to the warning horn.
This excerpt from a previous post from the accident brief off the CAA website would prove this as well.
As an ex-CTCer, I don't recall completing an asymmetric cct in the DA42 where the "dead" engine power lever wasn't advanced to the point that the gear warning stopped operating (simulated feathered setting) once the dead engine had been simulated switched off; the usual pratice was for the instructor to do this so as to avoid the obvious trap that seems to have been assumed in the above posts
(It's also pretty irritating to listen to so why wouldn't you cancel it as soon as is sensible?).
Currently it would seem it is standard procedure is to use "true zero thrust", as is evidenced by the racket that can be heard every time a radio transmision is made while they are operating single engine.
but it seems a little premature to make a whole series of sweeping statements about the quality of CTC's training / procedures based on very little fact
Asymmetric circuits were being conducted at the time, which results in the gear warning sounding throughout the simulation.
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Gear Warning Horn
With the sole exception of the GPWS "Too Low Gear" warning (which is still far from perfect having also allowed wheels up landings to occur), all gear warnings that i have come across are nearly totally useless.
Sooooo many aircraft worldwide with sooo many differing types of warning have landed wheels up, many with very experianced and current pilots, including some in this country, most probably using thier so called fail safe proceedures, memoirs, checklists etc
Those warnings which operate continuosly get ignored, those that can be silenced are forgotten. In the heat of the moment checklists are rushed, memoirs are said without being actioned.
Dont get me wrong they are all an aid, Keep those ideas flowing, but rely totally on any of it at your peril.
Goodluck out there!
(and no i have never, yet, fingers crossed)
Sooooo many aircraft worldwide with sooo many differing types of warning have landed wheels up, many with very experianced and current pilots, including some in this country, most probably using thier so called fail safe proceedures, memoirs, checklists etc
Those warnings which operate continuosly get ignored, those that can be silenced are forgotten. In the heat of the moment checklists are rushed, memoirs are said without being actioned.
Dont get me wrong they are all an aid, Keep those ideas flowing, but rely totally on any of it at your peril.
Goodluck out there!
(and no i have never, yet, fingers crossed)
Last edited by BBMouse; 11th Nov 2010 at 05:40.
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I fly into HLZ and ROT quite regularly, and quite often hear the warning horn blaring away during CTC radio calls on the local freq. So often, I thought it was standard not to silence it.
S2K
S2K
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I take it the tower didnt look at the aircraft at any point short finals? that alone to me seems a little odd that they didnt see this at any point during the app phase..hmm..
and yes, i know its not their 'job' to check for GA, but, you get my point...
and yes, i know its not their 'job' to check for GA, but, you get my point...
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as in I know they have to check for the likes of airnz ifr a/c etc on finals, and its not their 'job' to have to check that with GA, but surely they dont issue the landing clearance while looking the other way?? or if its issued on say a 5 mile final or downwind, they glance at the aircraft before it touches down???
Of all the times ive been up the tower, for me anyway, its just a natural thing to do, once i've heard them issue the clearance, i'll look at the aircraft.
maybe im wrong i dont know. just a thought. and no, im not bagging atc..they do a mighty fine job in HN TWR. The guys (and girls) up there are awesome to deal with.
Of all the times ive been up the tower, for me anyway, its just a natural thing to do, once i've heard them issue the clearance, i'll look at the aircraft.
maybe im wrong i dont know. just a thought. and no, im not bagging atc..they do a mighty fine job in HN TWR. The guys (and girls) up there are awesome to deal with.
