Pre-Flight Briefing Availability/Question
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Location: Western NSW
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Rotorblades
I suspect you've opened a can of worms here. I know from experience that there are many that do not check notams or weather properly. They watch the telly the night before for weather and can't be bothered about the rest. They probably haven't got a current set of maps to display the PRD areas mainly because they need to pay for them. Same goes for ERSA.
It is so easy to either log on to NAIPS or just phone flight briefing with a phone away card from just about anywhere. If your unsure then ask Centre for an update on the radio.
I agree with the other posts about the lack of good training and I have personally witnessed two VFR GA pilots checking weather where the destination had forecast deterioration to below VMC for their ETA but they went anyway despite several cautions from others. They outlanded on a road because the forecast dust storm was making things a bit difficult!!
As far as weather goes for IFR. There is not necessarily a TAF for every airport with an instrument approach. In fact there are quite a few in NSW with no TAF or a TAF that is not valid after hours. Then we use the area forecast. Possibly then we carry an alternate.
Keep up the good work.
I suspect you've opened a can of worms here. I know from experience that there are many that do not check notams or weather properly. They watch the telly the night before for weather and can't be bothered about the rest. They probably haven't got a current set of maps to display the PRD areas mainly because they need to pay for them. Same goes for ERSA.
It is so easy to either log on to NAIPS or just phone flight briefing with a phone away card from just about anywhere. If your unsure then ask Centre for an update on the radio.
I agree with the other posts about the lack of good training and I have personally witnessed two VFR GA pilots checking weather where the destination had forecast deterioration to below VMC for their ETA but they went anyway despite several cautions from others. They outlanded on a road because the forecast dust storm was making things a bit difficult!!
As far as weather goes for IFR. There is not necessarily a TAF for every airport with an instrument approach. In fact there are quite a few in NSW with no TAF or a TAF that is not valid after hours. Then we use the area forecast. Possibly then we carry an alternate.
Keep up the good work.
Motion Computing LS800 tablet + NAIPS + Telstra 3G 
(Chat with Briefing Office on the Sat Phone if all else fails!)
Dr
PS: Motion Computing LS800 tablet + NAIPS + Telstra 3G + Champagne Flightplanner + Weatherzone make flightplanning and submission of same no more that a 10 min job compared with much, much longer 30+ years ago.
(Chat with Briefing Office on the Sat Phone if all else fails!)
Dr
PS: Motion Computing LS800 tablet + NAIPS + Telstra 3G + Champagne Flightplanner + Weatherzone make flightplanning and submission of same no more that a 10 min job compared with much, much longer 30+ years ago.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Brisbane, QLD
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Hi All,
An interesting few points raised by everyone, thanks for your time.
It seems that the info is there & readily available, but a few (hopefully the minority) seem that it is too much work to read them, for the sake of 10mins or so astounds me.
In ATC we have to go throught the NOTAMs (3 times a day), TLIs, NICs, DIRs, SDs plus all the weather stuff - 99% of them not pertinent to our area of operations.
I find a highlighter pen works really well for sorting the seed from the chaff in NOTAMs. Highlight the ones pertinent to my airspace (or on your planned route). If you have to divert or cahnge route after airborne and go to a different airfield ask the area frequency for pertinent AD (aerodrome) Notams and whether any restricted airspace on your new route. You may have to wait a few minutes for ATC to request the relevant notams out of the system and then get a spare time to evaluate amnd then transmit them to you.
You may get a few groans/heavy sighs from the controller, but it is our job now that they've pretty much done away with flightwatch.
And I would rather pilots do that, its alot les hassle for me than if you plough through R564A/B (Singleton firing range) and I have to sweat for 5 mins waiting for the RSO to answer the phone so I can stop them firing missiles & other ordnance onto the range & into an unknown VFR)
On the weather I can see where plain english could be used, but I must admit most of the info is fairly easy to understand, even for a laymen like me.
I think this is a can of worms, but well worth exploring, but just maybe one pilot who didnt used to read the NOTAMs has seen this thread and will now on pre-brief better, and it may save a life or two.
CHeers
Alex
An interesting few points raised by everyone, thanks for your time.
It seems that the info is there & readily available, but a few (hopefully the minority) seem that it is too much work to read them, for the sake of 10mins or so astounds me.
In ATC we have to go throught the NOTAMs (3 times a day), TLIs, NICs, DIRs, SDs plus all the weather stuff - 99% of them not pertinent to our area of operations.
I find a highlighter pen works really well for sorting the seed from the chaff in NOTAMs. Highlight the ones pertinent to my airspace (or on your planned route). If you have to divert or cahnge route after airborne and go to a different airfield ask the area frequency for pertinent AD (aerodrome) Notams and whether any restricted airspace on your new route. You may have to wait a few minutes for ATC to request the relevant notams out of the system and then get a spare time to evaluate amnd then transmit them to you.
You may get a few groans/heavy sighs from the controller, but it is our job now that they've pretty much done away with flightwatch.
And I would rather pilots do that, its alot les hassle for me than if you plough through R564A/B (Singleton firing range) and I have to sweat for 5 mins waiting for the RSO to answer the phone so I can stop them firing missiles & other ordnance onto the range & into an unknown VFR)
On the weather I can see where plain english could be used, but I must admit most of the info is fairly easy to understand, even for a laymen like me.
I think this is a can of worms, but well worth exploring, but just maybe one pilot who didnt used to read the NOTAMs has seen this thread and will now on pre-brief better, and it may save a life or two.
CHeers
Alex
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Hey FTDK,
You're a Bonanza man, arent you?
You'd be pleased to know a Bonanza beat both a DH8D & E170 into Port friday,
I was well impressed I thought it was definately a likely candidate for the wooden spoon, in the end the Embraer (known as the 'womble' in the UK), got that (dis)honour
Alex
You're a Bonanza man, arent you?
You'd be pleased to know a Bonanza beat both a DH8D & E170 into Port friday,
I was well impressed I thought it was definately a likely candidate for the wooden spoon, in the end the Embraer (known as the 'womble' in the UK), got that (dis)honour
Alex
RB, as you can see here, you will need to sort through the **** that comes up to get what advice is useful to you.
Icarus and Nomad, not getting narky here, but the guy is just looking for general advice, not polishing off his ATPL law exams.
Don't really think he's gonna be ripping around an unfamiliar country on a joyflight at 3am either.
Let's keep it in context, eh?
Icarus and Nomad, not getting narky here, but the guy is just looking for general advice, not polishing off his ATPL law exams.
Don't really think he's gonna be ripping around an unfamiliar country on a joyflight at 3am either.
Let's keep it in context, eh?
Join Date: Jun 2001
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MakeItHappenCapt, sorry if you perceived my replies to be irrelevant. I don't want to get into an argument here but with all due respect I think they were relevent to RB's question:
My comment regarding Head Office NOTAM's was entirely relevant to the scenarios RB was frustrated with - especially the 'frequency out' one.
I replied to another poster regarding plain English and maybe that was a bit of a tangent but a response that I feel was relevant to the posts at the time. Plain English forecasts and NOTAMs possibly would have a negative effect to the scenarios presented as there would be even more material for people to be tempted to skip over before flying.
Icarus and I also responded to an INCORRECT statement regarding weather forecasts. Sorry if making a correction to an error got up your nose!
Good day
So, guys, enlighten me into your world...I've always got something to learn
I replied to another poster regarding plain English and maybe that was a bit of a tangent but a response that I feel was relevant to the posts at the time. Plain English forecasts and NOTAMs possibly would have a negative effect to the scenarios presented as there would be even more material for people to be tempted to skip over before flying.
Icarus and I also responded to an INCORRECT statement regarding weather forecasts. Sorry if making a correction to an error got up your nose!
Good day
After submitting a flight plan, how hard is it for Airservices to produce three sections of a document:
a) Forecasts/weather/NOTAMs for navigation points/aerodromes/waypoints/airspace traversed/with 30NM of track in flight plan with NOTAMs only with validity up to 4 after final ETA.
b) NOTAMs applicable within from 4-24 hours after final ETA
c) NOTAMs applicable 24+ hours after ETA.
a) Forecasts/weather/NOTAMs for navigation points/aerodromes/waypoints/airspace traversed/with 30NM of track in flight plan with NOTAMs only with validity up to 4 after final ETA.
b) NOTAMs applicable within from 4-24 hours after final ETA
c) NOTAMs applicable 24+ hours after ETA.
If you cannot be bothered spending a few hours learning how to read a forecast then choose another hobby.
How many of you here (who have flown lately, anyway) are aware that DAP and AIP have been amended via HO NOTAM? The T/O minima for IFR departures has changed...
Give yourself an extra point if you know when it happened (again, assuming of course that you've been out and about IFR, and should have been reading HO NOTAM)
With respect to the "plain language" argument, it is a valid point in a lot of ways to move toward that, but honestly I wouldn't hold my breath for it to happen! Personally I think that arse-covering has a bit of a hand in leaving it as it is. And it is after all, required of the pilot "prior to flight, to make a careful study of the information pertinent to the proposed flight" (or words pretty much to that effect).
I apologise if this sounds preachy, but my feeling is that it is not hard, and a point of professionalism, to do what is required - briefing yourself is required, and certainly possible in the current system. Professional pilots do it every day!
Cheers all, and that is not meant to be a dig at anyone, I can understand somewhat where you're coming from...
CR.
Give yourself an extra point if you know when it happened (again, assuming of course that you've been out and about IFR, and should have been reading HO NOTAM)
With respect to the "plain language" argument, it is a valid point in a lot of ways to move toward that, but honestly I wouldn't hold my breath for it to happen! Personally I think that arse-covering has a bit of a hand in leaving it as it is. And it is after all, required of the pilot "prior to flight, to make a careful study of the information pertinent to the proposed flight" (or words pretty much to that effect).
I apologise if this sounds preachy, but my feeling is that it is not hard, and a point of professionalism, to do what is required - briefing yourself is required, and certainly possible in the current system. Professional pilots do it every day!
Cheers all, and that is not meant to be a dig at anyone, I can understand somewhat where you're coming from...
CR.
As Icarus said, it is most certainly NOT the case that if there is an instrument approach there is a TAF - especially not in WA on the weekend or during the middle of the night
I think you missed my point. Just because a location has an instrument approach procedure does not mean it will have a forecast available at any time. Not just in the wee hours.
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Minesites are the best example of that Icarus. Plenty of mines with large dirt or sealed airstrips including PAPI lighting and jet capable with AWIS and instrument approaches (usually RNAV) yet no forecast at any time...
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Hey FTDK,
You're a Bonanza man, arent you?
You'd be pleased to know a Bonanza beat both a DH8D & E170 into Port friday,
I was well impressed I thought it was definately a likely candidate for the wooden spoon, in the end the Embraer (known as the 'womble' in the UK), got that (dis)honour
Alex
You're a Bonanza man, arent you?
You'd be pleased to know a Bonanza beat both a DH8D & E170 into Port friday,
I was well impressed I thought it was definately a likely candidate for the wooden spoon, in the end the Embraer (known as the 'womble' in the UK), got that (dis)honour
Alex
Do not say things like that, it only encourages him.... he tries racing -8's and things all the time up there in townsville and Cairns. If only he had a Retard Vehicle he may actually be a few knots closer to beating them too! 
now onto the serious stuff. Most of what you say is a clear indicator of dropping standards. I have been known to stuff up before, but never to the levels of these folk you talk about, and after hearing the other day about a guy who hired a plane (Jab) from the school at YCAB, flew down the coast, back through YBBN.... no map or ersa no idea what frequency and no Mode C on...
ATC phoned up the aero club and later no doubt the school as they found him. Turned out RAAus was onto him and had already cancelled his ticket. Throw the book.....I think a whole library was headed his way, but how on earth
.Now you will have heard me tell stories of the old farts at the local field who mostly do the Saturday jolly around the local area, but some venture out into the wilds of Aussie airspace, and have NONE of the following, Transponder, post 2007 ERSA / VTC's etc, No idea of what an ERC is, and lucky to have all the WAC's they need. As for appropriate frequency ...thats 126.7 or 123.45.
Now some VH driving folk are no better.
Bunkering down for the slagging from the RAAus ranks now!
J
PS And if anyone knows who the Moron is at the Redcliffe Aero Club (teaching I assume by the landings) in the BLUE Citabria this morning at 9am........READ YOUR EFFING ERSA. You operate from a local club and do not know the circuit directions of the neighboring field
. I just watched the RADAR traces of my arrival.....and yours!! RWY30 is RH CCTS That combined with the radio and flying display make me wonder what has happened over there of late .Dummy spat now!
Last edited by Jabawocky; 7th Oct 2010 at 05:53.
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Jaba, there is no use spitting the dummy or trying to keep teddy out of the dirt.
People out there don't care. I've seen pilots fly LH circuits when RH circuits are clearly prescribed in the ERSA, when it was pointed out to them "Oh, when did they change that?" It had been like that for 10 years.
And that wasn't RAA, a weekend warrior, or even a fresh CPL, that was a 2000+hr pilot in a Titan doing IFR charter.
Rotorblades, unfortunately that is what we are stuck with these days. The information is out there, quite simple to find and interpret (if you can't phone a friend). How can I say that.....it's my job to know that. Whether I'm flying for work or just taking friends up for burn around, it's my job to know exactly where I am, where I am going and what lay ahead. It's called Situational Awareness. Or to the older fraternity on here, Airmanship.
PPPPPPP <<<<< its all in there.
Note: The vast majority of fellow pilots are aware of their surroundings and do a good job. The others, well, thats a topc for other threads that get closed all to quickly sometimes.
People out there don't care. I've seen pilots fly LH circuits when RH circuits are clearly prescribed in the ERSA, when it was pointed out to them "Oh, when did they change that?" It had been like that for 10 years.
And that wasn't RAA, a weekend warrior, or even a fresh CPL, that was a 2000+hr pilot in a Titan doing IFR charter.
Rotorblades, unfortunately that is what we are stuck with these days. The information is out there, quite simple to find and interpret (if you can't phone a friend). How can I say that.....it's my job to know that. Whether I'm flying for work or just taking friends up for burn around, it's my job to know exactly where I am, where I am going and what lay ahead. It's called Situational Awareness. Or to the older fraternity on here, Airmanship.
PPPPPPP <<<<< its all in there.
Note: The vast majority of fellow pilots are aware of their surroundings and do a good job. The others, well, thats a topc for other threads that get closed all to quickly sometimes.
Last edited by propblast; 7th Oct 2010 at 06:16. Reason: changed words for to make better sense, it was even worse before
I'd agree that there is a lot of "noise" on the NOTAM lists which makes then very long.
My issue is that the whole system seems to expect that you have a PC connected high peed internet. Getting through the notams and making sense of them takes on a whole new dimension if you are: using a borrowed computer on the check in desk of a motel, using an iphone or worst still trying to get a briefing by phone. Phone briefings are further complicated by the arcane phone away card system.
A year or so back I went to return home from a strip with no mobile reception, no landline and no internet. With the closure of Flightwatch, I asked for a briefing and to submit an IFR plan on the area frequency and got a really bad response from ATC and never got all the details I really wanted. God help a VFR flight in the same circumstances.
I think that the system is really discouraging VFR pilots to make any radio calls on the area frequency. So now, out of practice and without flightwatch, it can be very intimidating to call to check on restricted areas, etc.
My issue is that the whole system seems to expect that you have a PC connected high peed internet. Getting through the notams and making sense of them takes on a whole new dimension if you are: using a borrowed computer on the check in desk of a motel, using an iphone or worst still trying to get a briefing by phone. Phone briefings are further complicated by the arcane phone away card system.
A year or so back I went to return home from a strip with no mobile reception, no landline and no internet. With the closure of Flightwatch, I asked for a briefing and to submit an IFR plan on the area frequency and got a really bad response from ATC and never got all the details I really wanted. God help a VFR flight in the same circumstances.
I think that the system is really discouraging VFR pilots to make any radio calls on the area frequency. So now, out of practice and without flightwatch, it can be very intimidating to call to check on restricted areas, etc.
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Pre-Flight Planning
Planning...you must be joking! It's just like driving a a car, surely. Why should a 'pilot' have to do something more than crank it up, point it in the general direction then suck it and see. There are more important things to do as a 'pilot' like strolling around in trendy clothes, impressing your partner, convincing the poor deluded passengers that the 'pilot' has actually done what he/she is legally and morally required to do. TAFs, ARFORs, METARs, SPECIs, Alternates, TAFRQs, NOTAMs, RESTD Area status, CTA boundaries, CTAF radio requirements and the like surely MUST be outside the responsibilities of the 'pilot'. Don't get me started as I'll only get upset.
Re Current Pubs: Went into Kingaroy a little while back.
RWY 34
L/H circuts for gliders/tow planes, R/h circuts for other traffic.
I saw at least 2 GA aircraft join L/H circut within an hour.
It is plainly laid out in the ERSA.
If this bush-pig can do it, anyone can and should be able to.
RWY 34
L/H circuts for gliders/tow planes, R/h circuts for other traffic.
I saw at least 2 GA aircraft join L/H circut within an hour.
It is plainly laid out in the ERSA.
If this bush-pig can do it, anyone can and should be able to.
