School options at Moorabbin
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Aus
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do agree with many of your points there, i wish i knew how to quote things but im still new to this so bare with me.
When I was talking about reliability, i mean simple things, like being conscious that fuel can leak out over night, even siphoned (happens more than I thought!) just because it had enough fuel last night doesn't mean its got enough the next morning. I've witnessed this be neglected countless times, along with not testing for dirty fuel (even after drum refueling!!). Planes that DO need there plugs un-fouled during run-ups on occasion. Im not talking unsafe and dangerous planes. Its just these little things you learn with older aircraft, so when you are thrown in the deep end you dont completely s#it yourself when on runups you get the rough running!
In saying this, I am not generalizing all those learning at MMB, it only takes one junior pilot to call a plane U/S for no good reason, loose an operator a charter for him not to bother with that school / area anymore. because lets face it, they have all the choices in the world.
I STRONGLY believe all pilots should be able to complete all the items listed un schedule 8, we are LEGALY able to complete them so we should know how to do it!!
My Issues with these schools also include not letting student pilots land on grass and dirt strips! and not alowing marginal weather flying! all things which if not encountered under supervision are extremely dangerous once PIC with a load full of punters.
Also i have flown with some absolutley fantastic pilots that have come out of the "sausage factorys" which im generally having a dig at. But in my opinion the majority lack the experiance, knowledge and the ability to deal with high stress situations.
When I was talking about reliability, i mean simple things, like being conscious that fuel can leak out over night, even siphoned (happens more than I thought!) just because it had enough fuel last night doesn't mean its got enough the next morning. I've witnessed this be neglected countless times, along with not testing for dirty fuel (even after drum refueling!!). Planes that DO need there plugs un-fouled during run-ups on occasion. Im not talking unsafe and dangerous planes. Its just these little things you learn with older aircraft, so when you are thrown in the deep end you dont completely s#it yourself when on runups you get the rough running!
In saying this, I am not generalizing all those learning at MMB, it only takes one junior pilot to call a plane U/S for no good reason, loose an operator a charter for him not to bother with that school / area anymore. because lets face it, they have all the choices in the world.
I STRONGLY believe all pilots should be able to complete all the items listed un schedule 8, we are LEGALY able to complete them so we should know how to do it!!
My Issues with these schools also include not letting student pilots land on grass and dirt strips! and not alowing marginal weather flying! all things which if not encountered under supervision are extremely dangerous once PIC with a load full of punters.
Also i have flown with some absolutley fantastic pilots that have come out of the "sausage factorys" which im generally having a dig at. But in my opinion the majority lack the experiance, knowledge and the ability to deal with high stress situations.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
YMMB bashing
This whole YMMB-bashing is rubbish, to be honest.
There are a lot of student pilots who get their license at MB. Some of them will be great pilots, some will be crap. Anyone who thinks that certain schools or aerodromes have a monopoly on teaching good or bad future pilots is kidding themselves and, judging by the nonsense posted up here, others.
The basic learning framework is set by the school, of course. Some learning frameworks are better than others - it is true. However far more of the capability of the pilot that comes out depends on determination, hard work of the individual concerned and their relationship with their instructor.
I understand that there are concerns about the number of inexperienced instructors at the large city aerodromes. So to the original poster I would reiterate what many have already said: find yourself a good instructor (one that you get along with, who will give you time, inspire you to learn more), moreso than a 'good school', and then throw yourself into your training with passion and determination.
I learnt at moorabbin as well as some time at a small country flying school; I can think of several benefits the training at MB gave me particularly in the area of situational awareness and traffic lookout in the circuit.
There are a lot of student pilots who get their license at MB. Some of them will be great pilots, some will be crap. Anyone who thinks that certain schools or aerodromes have a monopoly on teaching good or bad future pilots is kidding themselves and, judging by the nonsense posted up here, others.
The basic learning framework is set by the school, of course. Some learning frameworks are better than others - it is true. However far more of the capability of the pilot that comes out depends on determination, hard work of the individual concerned and their relationship with their instructor.
I understand that there are concerns about the number of inexperienced instructors at the large city aerodromes. So to the original poster I would reiterate what many have already said: find yourself a good instructor (one that you get along with, who will give you time, inspire you to learn more), moreso than a 'good school', and then throw yourself into your training with passion and determination.
I learnt at moorabbin as well as some time at a small country flying school; I can think of several benefits the training at MB gave me particularly in the area of situational awareness and traffic lookout in the circuit.
The most important thing to do is start.
The single thing that will make it more appealing to go back each week for the next lesson is an instructor who has a teaching style that suits your learning style and who you enjoy flying with.
Please, please get off the forum and go and talk to schools at the airport that is easiest for you to get to. I soloed nearly before I had L plates to drive - 30 odd years ago. I chose Casey airfield at Berwick because it was cheaper than Moorabbin and took the train from Hawthorn for lessons. I ended up at Casey in a golden era by happenstance. Since then I've done various bits of training with over 10 schools in Australia and 2 overseas, but all the schools & instructors that I have admired over the years will welcome someone with a genuine interest turning up and asking questions.
Flying has always been a hobby, but one of the great adventures of my life. I've flown antique aircraft, aerobatic aircraft, homebuilts, twins, gliders, choppers. I have Aust, NZ & US licences and have flown privately in NZ, US & the UK. Through flying I've been places & met people that I could never have done otherwise.
Learning to fly for most of us is hard. As a student I'd work all of one weekend in a carwash to pay for an hour's training the following weekend. But its worth it. Come & join us.
The single thing that will make it more appealing to go back each week for the next lesson is an instructor who has a teaching style that suits your learning style and who you enjoy flying with.
Please, please get off the forum and go and talk to schools at the airport that is easiest for you to get to. I soloed nearly before I had L plates to drive - 30 odd years ago. I chose Casey airfield at Berwick because it was cheaper than Moorabbin and took the train from Hawthorn for lessons. I ended up at Casey in a golden era by happenstance. Since then I've done various bits of training with over 10 schools in Australia and 2 overseas, but all the schools & instructors that I have admired over the years will welcome someone with a genuine interest turning up and asking questions.
Flying has always been a hobby, but one of the great adventures of my life. I've flown antique aircraft, aerobatic aircraft, homebuilts, twins, gliders, choppers. I have Aust, NZ & US licences and have flown privately in NZ, US & the UK. Through flying I've been places & met people that I could never have done otherwise.
Learning to fly for most of us is hard. As a student I'd work all of one weekend in a carwash to pay for an hour's training the following weekend. But its worth it. Come & join us.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 37
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So i took Old Akro's advice and went to the airport and looked around at the school's.
I have narrowed it down to MFS and MFT these two were super helpful and nice people.
MFS are new aircraft and are $280 odd hire, MFT have older aircraft but cheaper rate for Cessna 152 $269 and these guys were super nice! (not that MFS weren't).
What to do!!!!!!!
New aircraft or basic cessna 152/172 for basic training?
I have narrowed it down to MFS and MFT these two were super helpful and nice people.
MFS are new aircraft and are $280 odd hire, MFT have older aircraft but cheaper rate for Cessna 152 $269 and these guys were super nice! (not that MFS weren't).
What to do!!!!!!!
New aircraft or basic cessna 152/172 for basic training?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which school in YMMB
Hey mate,
Firstly, Moorabbin is the best place for training cos you are exposed to the real environment rather than a clay strip in the middle of no where!!!
As far as I now, Tristar and RVAC are cheapest, RVAC got many Aircrafts while Tristar not so many. remember, biggest is not the best. although cheapest is not the best, but at least you can save huge money for your advanced training.
at the end, every things depend on you and your determination.
be ahead of your lessons and know what you gonna do in the next flight. the less hours you end up, the more money you save.
Generally, students of Tristar, ended up with less hours. this school is family business and the environment is pleasant.
I have no idea about MFT (they are pretty new school). MFS is luxury school with brand new fleet but I am sure you not gonna buy their aircrafts, you just need training, ultimately the training quality is same.
Peter BINI is famous with their Instrument training. at this stage it is not applicable to you.
Good Luck
Firstly, Moorabbin is the best place for training cos you are exposed to the real environment rather than a clay strip in the middle of no where!!!
As far as I now, Tristar and RVAC are cheapest, RVAC got many Aircrafts while Tristar not so many. remember, biggest is not the best. although cheapest is not the best, but at least you can save huge money for your advanced training.
at the end, every things depend on you and your determination.
be ahead of your lessons and know what you gonna do in the next flight. the less hours you end up, the more money you save.
Generally, students of Tristar, ended up with less hours. this school is family business and the environment is pleasant.
I have no idea about MFT (they are pretty new school). MFS is luxury school with brand new fleet but I am sure you not gonna buy their aircrafts, you just need training, ultimately the training quality is same.
Peter BINI is famous with their Instrument training. at this stage it is not applicable to you.
Good Luck
I was avoiding opinions on schools. I know MFS very well and I admire the guys who own it and what they have done with it. The flight simulator they have is outstanding and their early adoption of advanced simulators is quite innovative. The school has a warm welcoming feel and they have done me a number of favours over the years, but I haven't hired any of its aircraft in a number of years. They would be an excellent choice, but they are unashamedly toward the expensive end.
MFS have new aircraft, many with glass cockpits. Personally, I'm not fussed about glass. The instrument scan is different and it takes some training. My aeroplane has old gauges and I have no desire to change. If you are airline bound, or have ambitions of buying a post 2005-ish aeroplane, then glass might be a good thing.
I don't know MFT at all. But if there was an instructor you liked, and they were cheaper and cost is a factor, then I'd give them serious consideration.
I haven't flown with Bini, but have spent hours in the building doing theory lectures They have a great reputation and are nice guys, but I didn't think initial training was their thing.
Tristar is the other school that regularly seems to get good comments but I know absolutely nothing about them.
I learned on Pipers, prefer them and own one. I did part of my navigation work in a C152 and was never keen on then until I did some aerobatics in one (aerobat version and after lots of Pitts experience). It wasn't until then that I realised what a good training aircraft it is. I like Piper better for a string of reasons, but I'd probably recommend a C152 for initial training.
I think that learning to fly is about learning to fly, not operating an aircraft. So, variety is good. As soon as you are flying confidently (probably about GFPT) I'd be voting for getting experience with other aircraft.
For initial training, you are going to learn to fly visually. Looking at the wing angle to the horizon and recognising the feel of the aroplane whenat different speeds are the building blocks. Therefore the only instruments you really need is the minimum list for the aircraft. Probably Airspeed, altimeter, turn & bank, radio & transponder. The rest is for ego ( and later on with Navigation work). New & shiny is nice and may give you a more confident feel walking up to it. But for the early work, a basic well maintained old aeroplane will suit you fine. If you are on a budget I'd be at this end of the spectrum. If you need to placate nervous parents, girlfriends, etc; then newer & shinier might have advantage.
Once you are ready to start nav. exercises, potentially you could re-evaluate the school and move to one that has more sexy stuff. Although my best navigation learning was from ferrying Pitts where the only navigation instrument was the magnetic compass and even that was questionable. My most recent nav was in a turbine aircraft with 2 of everything you can imagine. The autopilot was engaged as we entered cloud at about 8,000ft on climb for 26,000ft and disengaged on descent through 3,000 ft on approach vectors. Its a completely different buzz and it all needs to be learned, but its easier to learn to fly with eyeballs then learn instruments than vice versa.
MFS have new aircraft, many with glass cockpits. Personally, I'm not fussed about glass. The instrument scan is different and it takes some training. My aeroplane has old gauges and I have no desire to change. If you are airline bound, or have ambitions of buying a post 2005-ish aeroplane, then glass might be a good thing.
I don't know MFT at all. But if there was an instructor you liked, and they were cheaper and cost is a factor, then I'd give them serious consideration.
I haven't flown with Bini, but have spent hours in the building doing theory lectures They have a great reputation and are nice guys, but I didn't think initial training was their thing.
Tristar is the other school that regularly seems to get good comments but I know absolutely nothing about them.
I learned on Pipers, prefer them and own one. I did part of my navigation work in a C152 and was never keen on then until I did some aerobatics in one (aerobat version and after lots of Pitts experience). It wasn't until then that I realised what a good training aircraft it is. I like Piper better for a string of reasons, but I'd probably recommend a C152 for initial training.
I think that learning to fly is about learning to fly, not operating an aircraft. So, variety is good. As soon as you are flying confidently (probably about GFPT) I'd be voting for getting experience with other aircraft.
For initial training, you are going to learn to fly visually. Looking at the wing angle to the horizon and recognising the feel of the aroplane whenat different speeds are the building blocks. Therefore the only instruments you really need is the minimum list for the aircraft. Probably Airspeed, altimeter, turn & bank, radio & transponder. The rest is for ego ( and later on with Navigation work). New & shiny is nice and may give you a more confident feel walking up to it. But for the early work, a basic well maintained old aeroplane will suit you fine. If you are on a budget I'd be at this end of the spectrum. If you need to placate nervous parents, girlfriends, etc; then newer & shinier might have advantage.
Once you are ready to start nav. exercises, potentially you could re-evaluate the school and move to one that has more sexy stuff. Although my best navigation learning was from ferrying Pitts where the only navigation instrument was the magnetic compass and even that was questionable. My most recent nav was in a turbine aircraft with 2 of everything you can imagine. The autopilot was engaged as we entered cloud at about 8,000ft on climb for 26,000ft and disengaged on descent through 3,000 ft on approach vectors. Its a completely different buzz and it all needs to be learned, but its easier to learn to fly with eyeballs then learn instruments than vice versa.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Declaring an interest here, used to instruct at MFT.
The owners of MFT are very serious about the instructor standards. Grade Three's are monitored and mentored. The Grade Two's are of a high standard and like the One's are very experienced and come from a very wide experience base. (Airline, Charter, Instruction etc)
They have a great mix of aircraft, if you want steam, they have recent and older models with different cost bases. If you want glass, you pay for it (as it should be!) the owners of these aircraft deserve a decent return on them considering what they are put through. More Cessna's than Piper.
I've crosshired quite a few aircraft from MFS and have found them courteous and helpful. They pissed me off when a Seminole went US the day before I had it booked and no phone call to let me know that it wouldn't be available (live on the other side of town). They too have a great mix of aircraft but on the Piper side of things.
I learnt to fly in Bankstowns hey-day, when you found it difficult to find a park at the end of the day. You cetainly learnt circuit discipline, there were 10 or 12 of you at a time. If you flew wide or long you got a rocket from the controllers (as you should). Learning to fly at a bush aerodrome would have it's distinct advantages too though, GAAP/Bush Aerodrome? Choice really.
Time to make a decision bloke (that's what aviation is all about, decision making!)
Good luck with it.
The owners of MFT are very serious about the instructor standards. Grade Three's are monitored and mentored. The Grade Two's are of a high standard and like the One's are very experienced and come from a very wide experience base. (Airline, Charter, Instruction etc)
They have a great mix of aircraft, if you want steam, they have recent and older models with different cost bases. If you want glass, you pay for it (as it should be!) the owners of these aircraft deserve a decent return on them considering what they are put through. More Cessna's than Piper.
I've crosshired quite a few aircraft from MFS and have found them courteous and helpful. They pissed me off when a Seminole went US the day before I had it booked and no phone call to let me know that it wouldn't be available (live on the other side of town). They too have a great mix of aircraft but on the Piper side of things.
I learnt to fly in Bankstowns hey-day, when you found it difficult to find a park at the end of the day. You cetainly learnt circuit discipline, there were 10 or 12 of you at a time. If you flew wide or long you got a rocket from the controllers (as you should). Learning to fly at a bush aerodrome would have it's distinct advantages too though, GAAP/Bush Aerodrome? Choice really.
Time to make a decision bloke (that's what aviation is all about, decision making!)
Good luck with it.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MFS are new aircraft and are $280 odd hire, MFT have older aircraft but cheaper rate for Cessna 152 $269 and these guys were super nice! (not that MFS weren't).
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: At the minima
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cessna152pilot
You get what you pay for mostly. Reliability can be an issue, especially in Melbourne where you may have been waiting for an appropriate day weather wise to do your solo Nav only to find out on a lovely CAVOK day that your aeroplane broke the night before and there are no others and so on.
However, this is just part and parcel of aviation and can and might happen at ANY flying school - they are machines after all. As I could only fly on weekends I booked and waited for 6 weeks (short time now in the scheme of things) to do my first PPL flying lesson as the weather was just pox.
Then we had a drought and I got the CPL done much faster due good enough VMC conditions. Probably too good really.
Anyway, as others have said, pay them all a visit, you can get a good feel from the people you talk to, you may even be able to talk to your future instructor. I had a trial instructional/introductory (whatever) flight and was hooked and she taught me all the way through to her leaving (due marriage and kids). Had a big influence on me, great instructional technique and knew her stuff. Then I got another senior grade one instructor and I learnt even more.
Some grade three's are awesome instructors, some are rubbish. As are some grade 2's and 1's and senior grade 1's.This is the case all the way through, even to airlines. Remember though, if you're not happy then speak up as it's your cash you are spending.
I went to Bini's from TIF, to solo to ppl, cpl, nvfr and mecir and they are very very good. I may have been lucky, but they were good for what I needed. They may or may not suit you but you need to see them all.
PM for further info regarding this decision of yours if you like. As others have said - just start, oh and DO NOT PAY UP FRONT. Pay as you go always worked well for me. Others here may have more to say on the paying up front issue.
You get what you pay for mostly. Reliability can be an issue, especially in Melbourne where you may have been waiting for an appropriate day weather wise to do your solo Nav only to find out on a lovely CAVOK day that your aeroplane broke the night before and there are no others and so on.
However, this is just part and parcel of aviation and can and might happen at ANY flying school - they are machines after all. As I could only fly on weekends I booked and waited for 6 weeks (short time now in the scheme of things) to do my first PPL flying lesson as the weather was just pox.
Then we had a drought and I got the CPL done much faster due good enough VMC conditions. Probably too good really.
Anyway, as others have said, pay them all a visit, you can get a good feel from the people you talk to, you may even be able to talk to your future instructor. I had a trial instructional/introductory (whatever) flight and was hooked and she taught me all the way through to her leaving (due marriage and kids). Had a big influence on me, great instructional technique and knew her stuff. Then I got another senior grade one instructor and I learnt even more.
Some grade three's are awesome instructors, some are rubbish. As are some grade 2's and 1's and senior grade 1's.This is the case all the way through, even to airlines. Remember though, if you're not happy then speak up as it's your cash you are spending.
I went to Bini's from TIF, to solo to ppl, cpl, nvfr and mecir and they are very very good. I may have been lucky, but they were good for what I needed. They may or may not suit you but you need to see them all.
PM for further info regarding this decision of yours if you like. As others have said - just start, oh and DO NOT PAY UP FRONT. Pay as you go always worked well for me. Others here may have more to say on the paying up front issue.
