Is RACWA on finals? YOU WERE WARNED!!
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If they were realistic it would be $260/hr inc GST for a 30 yr old Cessna 172 and $450/hr inc GST for a new one. Perhaps even more.
If a for profit organisation can charge the prices below, I think it would be hard to justify $450 per hour
C172S Cessna 172 G1000 avionics (latest model) IFR 269.00
C182T Cessna 182 (latest model) IFR 363.00
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htran i agree. i joined RACWA 18 months ago to begin training for PPL. I was initially impressed by the Club and my instructor. I feel there is a big discord in the way the Club operates, specifically with reference to the WAAC fulltime students and its operations, and the weekend part-time private member (of which, I am the later).
In the 18 months since joining, my instructor fee's have been increased 3 times ($80p/h, $90p/h and now $110 p/h) and I know that my instuctor see's little of this increase. Whilst the increase is not a major concern (I was prepared for the cost of learning to fly and went in with my eyes open) it is difficult to see how a Club can operate this way with no communication to members and, what seems to be an ad-hoc approach to their own instructors. Are they increasing my costs to rectify poor financial management? It would appear so, as neither I nor my instructor benefit from the increase in charge (ie I still fly the same 30yr old aircraft and my instructor see's little increase in his hip pocket)
There are some fantastic people at the Club, but I fear their efforts are being let down by what appears to be a committee and/or management that appear to have little understanding of a non-for-profit members club.
Serious fundraising and member campaigns could see the Club get back on line, but I'm guessing they wouldn't want to hear about it.
As a member, I would quite happily volunteer time to assist in pulling the Club back in line.
In the 18 months since joining, my instructor fee's have been increased 3 times ($80p/h, $90p/h and now $110 p/h) and I know that my instuctor see's little of this increase. Whilst the increase is not a major concern (I was prepared for the cost of learning to fly and went in with my eyes open) it is difficult to see how a Club can operate this way with no communication to members and, what seems to be an ad-hoc approach to their own instructors. Are they increasing my costs to rectify poor financial management? It would appear so, as neither I nor my instructor benefit from the increase in charge (ie I still fly the same 30yr old aircraft and my instructor see's little increase in his hip pocket)
There are some fantastic people at the Club, but I fear their efforts are being let down by what appears to be a committee and/or management that appear to have little understanding of a non-for-profit members club.
Serious fundraising and member campaigns could see the Club get back on line, but I'm guessing they wouldn't want to hear about it.
As a member, I would quite happily volunteer time to assist in pulling the Club back in line.
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I haven't been there for a while &I just had a look at their price list. Wow.
non member 152 hourly rate - $217
instructor - $110
1 hour brief - $110
Landing fees (4 t&g and 1 full stop) - $38
So a 1 hour dual lesson of circuits & brief in a 30 year old beaten up 152 is $475 !
I wonder if they still charge the dual rate right up to GFPT even for the solo hours?
It should be obvious why the hours flown has dropped so much?
Also found this gem of wisdom on their website :
What an absolute and totally blatent lie....
...How can they possibly justify putting utter ****e like this on their website? Completely and utterly misleading....
non member 152 hourly rate - $217
instructor - $110
1 hour brief - $110
Landing fees (4 t&g and 1 full stop) - $38
So a 1 hour dual lesson of circuits & brief in a 30 year old beaten up 152 is $475 !
I wonder if they still charge the dual rate right up to GFPT even for the solo hours?
It should be obvious why the hours flown has dropped so much?
Also found this gem of wisdom on their website :
What are the Australian/Overseas job prospects for when I complete my licence?
At this stage the aviation industry (worldwide) is desperately short of pilots, there’s never been a better time to start your training towards your Commercial Pilot Licence.
At this stage the aviation industry (worldwide) is desperately short of pilots, there’s never been a better time to start your training towards your Commercial Pilot Licence.
...How can they possibly justify putting utter ****e like this on their website? Completely and utterly misleading....
Last edited by Van Gough; 22nd Jul 2010 at 07:45.
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TAC are a company which means it is their ultimate goal to make money for their shareholders and surely they must be making money off $297 per hour DA40 otherwise they would be out if business.
I agree that RACWA should be run by members for the benefit of members and should call for volunteers rather than having expensive management staff, I would like to see the club act like a non for profit organisation and aim to deliver a benefit to members rather than pursue commercial activities to make money.
I would like to see the instructors paid more, like some one said before instructor rates increased by over 25% but the instructor pay rises were more like 4%.
I also agree that the club do more fundraising activities and flying for fun activities.
I think way too much resources goes towards WAAC and whilst that makes $$$ it's not about making money it's about member benefits. I would rather see the club have 4 new planes that members want to and enjoy to fly rather than 20 old planes that are used primarily for makin money.
I agree that RACWA should be run by members for the benefit of members and should call for volunteers rather than having expensive management staff, I would like to see the club act like a non for profit organisation and aim to deliver a benefit to members rather than pursue commercial activities to make money.
I would like to see the instructors paid more, like some one said before instructor rates increased by over 25% but the instructor pay rises were more like 4%.
I also agree that the club do more fundraising activities and flying for fun activities.
I think way too much resources goes towards WAAC and whilst that makes $$$ it's not about making money it's about member benefits. I would rather see the club have 4 new planes that members want to and enjoy to fly rather than 20 old planes that are used primarily for makin money.
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Such pricing doesn't include any allowance for major/early/unexpected overhaults/repairs.
eg. Why do you see so many aircraft for sale with engines at or near TBO, or sitting without an engine either inside the hangar or parked outside them.
It's because the don't have the cash reserves and cashflow to finance them. Why? Because, in general, the chargeout rates are too cheap.
So let's increase rates, increase instructors' pay (so you get career instructors not hour builders).
And RACWA can get back to its roots and become a club not a company.
eg. Why do you see so many aircraft for sale with engines at or near TBO, or sitting without an engine either inside the hangar or parked outside them.
It's because the don't have the cash reserves and cashflow to finance them. Why? Because, in general, the chargeout rates are too cheap.
So let's increase rates, increase instructors' pay (so you get career instructors not hour builders).
And RACWA can get back to its roots and become a club not a company.
Last edited by FokkerInYour12; 30th Aug 2010 at 04:28.
It all started many years ago ..... Let's build a new clubhouse!
Good grief.
Good grief.
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If you all want to go back to it being simply an Aero Club, then it'll end up with 3 instructors and 4 or 5 aeroplanes.
When is AirSic going to get it through his or her thick skull that training is the only thing that really supports income to any aero club. AirSic seems to completely ignore that the GFC affected EVERY flying organisation across the county with some not even surviving.
Why aren't members flying? Why are club competition days so poorly supported - and don't blow sunshine up my arse by telling me that if there were better aeroplanes that'd fix the problem. Bull****!
Were that the case, The Aeroplane Company with 4 Diamonds and glass cockpits would be overun with panting pilots wanting to fly their aeroplanes - and they're not.
If you feel so strongly about it, nominate for Committee and DO something about it instead of sitting on the sidelines and sniping at people who are actually DOING something.
But I guess that'd mean you'd have to take some responsibility and make decisions and that would seem way beyond you.
When is AirSic going to get it through his or her thick skull that training is the only thing that really supports income to any aero club. AirSic seems to completely ignore that the GFC affected EVERY flying organisation across the county with some not even surviving.
Why aren't members flying? Why are club competition days so poorly supported - and don't blow sunshine up my arse by telling me that if there were better aeroplanes that'd fix the problem. Bull****!
Were that the case, The Aeroplane Company with 4 Diamonds and glass cockpits would be overun with panting pilots wanting to fly their aeroplanes - and they're not.
If you feel so strongly about it, nominate for Committee and DO something about it instead of sitting on the sidelines and sniping at people who are actually DOING something.
But I guess that'd mean you'd have to take some responsibility and make decisions and that would seem way beyond you.
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Since you seem to be so 'in-the-loop' , then maybe you can inform us of what the committee ARE doing about the situation.....? The thread so far seems to indicate that people are generally unsure of what direction the club is taking.....
AirSic seems to completely ignore that the GFC affected EVERY flying organisation across the county with some not even surviving.
To add to what YPJT said, I understand there have been a LOT of disgruntled students leaving RACWA in the last couple of years, especially since the aquisition of WAAC; this has kept some of the other schools very busy and not seeing any effects of the so-called GFC.
RACWA - I was there, Sunday arvo, expecting the place to be chockers - it was deserted, apart from the bar staff.
Where are all the members?
Certainly not flying, judging by the rows of parked aircraft.
Club, it ain't....
Where are all the members?
Certainly not flying, judging by the rows of parked aircraft.
Club, it ain't....
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RACWA - I was there, Sunday arvo, expecting the place to be chockers - it was deserted, apart from the bar staff.
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Oh Dear - Precious
MooneyManiac.......
Which committee member are you? (rhetorical)
How precious...I suggest your comments have given you away as a committee member (one who has their head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich) or at least very close to the committee.
I have been at RACWA, in the foyer, being told by other members that "you can get better service and a/c down the road". They do!
Down the road...you can get people to return phone calls promptly.
Down the road...you can arrange for Night Flying without being told "we are not allowed to night fly because it is not a good use of resources".
Down the road...you can enter a building, conduct a brief, fly a modern plane, pay for the SERVICE, and not get caught up in the shallow politics of someones wet dream of "we are a leading international training organisation", or "a large multi national company". You are not!
Down the road...you don't have to do a 3 hour navex for an AFR.
Down the road...you can talk to any instructor in relation to theory training and review of said theory. You can't at RACWA...try it and see what response you get. I am sick of hearing, we don't do theory, you will have to go to WAAC. What did the members buy? Some computer on-line training module system.
Down the road...The a/c may not always be available (because they are being used) but they are SERVICABLE when required.
Thats why members aren't flying. I completely agree with other PPruners here that organisations up and down the strip have done very well because of the debacle at RACWA. Most of the operators don't want RACWA to change as their business may suffer!
Maybe RACWA NEEDS to go back to 3-4 instructors and 3-4 a/c. Lets face it....that's where it is at now efficiency wise, only with massive overheads and debt.
Don't get angry at the members for not turning up to fly an aircraft for 15 minutes on a competition day.
Don't blame the GFC....that's a load of bull**** (to quote you) as demonstrated by many other organisations.
I would suggest - Get angry at yourself for allowing the problem to become so dire that conceivably the end is nigh for RACWA.
As for being on the committee....we tried to get rid of you before all this happened....you ambushed the meeting with your lawyer and nothing got achieved. JG, AH and PL should all be taken to task personally but we know that won't happen as you hide behind the Inc. side of the business.
How much was Murrayfield to buy? What are the repayments? More importantly what is the utilisation?
How much was WAAC to buy back? What are the repayments? How the hell a training organisation can agree to "not teach theory" in the first place astounds me and then have to buy back the right to.
Why enter into a 30 year lease with JAH if Murrayfield is the answer to everything and JAH are a bunch of thie^ing bastar^s charging everyone too much?
How many years and how many funded trips overseas to "look at other operations" and "qualify potential a/c replacements".....please, give us a break.
You can't keep trying to sell off very old 152's at twice their market price to pay for your mistakes! What are they up for now?....that's right $55k each.....tell 'im he's dreamin'.
Every time the "new aircraft" are held up...."here is the perfect opportunity to re-assess the purchase"....Wa%k Wa%k Wa%k
AH is gone and I suspect the sooner the current committee is gone, the better!
Of course at the end of the day....who really cares?!
AIRSIC - former RACWA member
Which committee member are you? (rhetorical)
How precious...I suggest your comments have given you away as a committee member (one who has their head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich) or at least very close to the committee.
I have been at RACWA, in the foyer, being told by other members that "you can get better service and a/c down the road". They do!
Down the road...you can get people to return phone calls promptly.
Down the road...you can arrange for Night Flying without being told "we are not allowed to night fly because it is not a good use of resources".
Down the road...you can enter a building, conduct a brief, fly a modern plane, pay for the SERVICE, and not get caught up in the shallow politics of someones wet dream of "we are a leading international training organisation", or "a large multi national company". You are not!
Down the road...you don't have to do a 3 hour navex for an AFR.
Down the road...you can talk to any instructor in relation to theory training and review of said theory. You can't at RACWA...try it and see what response you get. I am sick of hearing, we don't do theory, you will have to go to WAAC. What did the members buy? Some computer on-line training module system.
Down the road...The a/c may not always be available (because they are being used) but they are SERVICABLE when required.
Thats why members aren't flying. I completely agree with other PPruners here that organisations up and down the strip have done very well because of the debacle at RACWA. Most of the operators don't want RACWA to change as their business may suffer!
Maybe RACWA NEEDS to go back to 3-4 instructors and 3-4 a/c. Lets face it....that's where it is at now efficiency wise, only with massive overheads and debt.
Don't get angry at the members for not turning up to fly an aircraft for 15 minutes on a competition day.
Don't blame the GFC....that's a load of bull**** (to quote you) as demonstrated by many other organisations.
I would suggest - Get angry at yourself for allowing the problem to become so dire that conceivably the end is nigh for RACWA.
As for being on the committee....we tried to get rid of you before all this happened....you ambushed the meeting with your lawyer and nothing got achieved. JG, AH and PL should all be taken to task personally but we know that won't happen as you hide behind the Inc. side of the business.
How much was Murrayfield to buy? What are the repayments? More importantly what is the utilisation?
How much was WAAC to buy back? What are the repayments? How the hell a training organisation can agree to "not teach theory" in the first place astounds me and then have to buy back the right to.
Why enter into a 30 year lease with JAH if Murrayfield is the answer to everything and JAH are a bunch of thie^ing bastar^s charging everyone too much?
How many years and how many funded trips overseas to "look at other operations" and "qualify potential a/c replacements".....please, give us a break.
You can't keep trying to sell off very old 152's at twice their market price to pay for your mistakes! What are they up for now?....that's right $55k each.....tell 'im he's dreamin'.
Every time the "new aircraft" are held up...."here is the perfect opportunity to re-assess the purchase"....Wa%k Wa%k Wa%k
AH is gone and I suspect the sooner the current committee is gone, the better!
Of course at the end of the day....who really cares?!
AIRSIC - former RACWA member
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latest in Tarmac Topics
Sitting in an airline lounge overseas, I look up to see the latest edition (septemeber 2010) of Tarmac Topics being read by a well known member. I borrow his copy and comment as follows:
well it appears that the end is just around the corner.
JG's latest note to all is that despite his and the committees best efforts, everyone in OZ in GA has fallen victim to the GFC.
Ironically, his page in the magazine is titled "Future directions". JG outlines what he thinks is required as a "10 point GA rescue package" in conjunction with other associations as "GA position is so grim".
Same edition re-comfirms that club captain Mick Harcourt is resigning, and he mentions that "a well done is required, club attendances at the monthly competitions both at Jandakot and Murrayfield have increased"
I have a lot of time for people like Mick and Trevor Jones (Manager of Club Flying) as well as Trent Robinson (manager flying Operations).
What I don't have a lot of time for is self serving, arrogant jerks who push their own agenda's at the expense of others.
There is an AGM announced to occur on September 29th 2010 at 7pm at RACWA offices.
It will be interesting to see the outcome of the meeting as the committee is required to stand down by constitutional requirement.
Could it be said that the words of JG in his article, are the beginning of his "way out"? Don't blame me! Blame the GFC / CASA / Members etc etc etc
Lets see RACWA get back to it's former glory and let the members benefit rather than suffer from what has been a very expensive and exhausting exercise for all........It may be worth re-joining - RACWA - The CLUB!
well it appears that the end is just around the corner.
JG's latest note to all is that despite his and the committees best efforts, everyone in OZ in GA has fallen victim to the GFC.
Ironically, his page in the magazine is titled "Future directions". JG outlines what he thinks is required as a "10 point GA rescue package" in conjunction with other associations as "GA position is so grim".
Same edition re-comfirms that club captain Mick Harcourt is resigning, and he mentions that "a well done is required, club attendances at the monthly competitions both at Jandakot and Murrayfield have increased"
I have a lot of time for people like Mick and Trevor Jones (Manager of Club Flying) as well as Trent Robinson (manager flying Operations).
What I don't have a lot of time for is self serving, arrogant jerks who push their own agenda's at the expense of others.
There is an AGM announced to occur on September 29th 2010 at 7pm at RACWA offices.
It will be interesting to see the outcome of the meeting as the committee is required to stand down by constitutional requirement.
Could it be said that the words of JG in his article, are the beginning of his "way out"? Don't blame me! Blame the GFC / CASA / Members etc etc etc
Lets see RACWA get back to it's former glory and let the members benefit rather than suffer from what has been a very expensive and exhausting exercise for all........It may be worth re-joining - RACWA - The CLUB!
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I've heard around the Jandakot traps that August was an extremely slow month for all on the strip.
Perhaps the reality is that only 3 or 4 flying schools can survive anyway?
I'd sure prefer to learn during winter months than summer months. I still rememeber the first low level nav practice many years ago - 39 degrees OAT and humid to boot.
Perhaps the reality is that only 3 or 4 flying schools can survive anyway?
I'd sure prefer to learn during winter months than summer months. I still rememeber the first low level nav practice many years ago - 39 degrees OAT and humid to boot.
short flights long nights
As a very very long time member of thre RACWA, I can say that the rot set in as soon as they built the new building. All sense of "club" went and "money grabbing buissness" stareted.
Saturday nights at the old club..infact most nights used to be packed..with members and staff alike. But for some reason that new building changed everything.
Saturday nights at the old club..infact most nights used to be packed..with members and staff alike. But for some reason that new building changed everything.