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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4

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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4

Old 10th Feb 2014, 21:31
  #301 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: London, UK
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From the CVDPA news on fb.

CASA confirm that there are no accidents or incidents on record attributed to a pilot's CVD. Why then are they wasting so much taxpayer money fighting a case, when the only empirical evidence available is that CVD pilots continue to meet the highest standards of safety and proficiency?

Interesting read: http://cvdpa.com/images/pdf/Question...%20Answers.pdf
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Old 10th Feb 2014, 22:20
  #302 (permalink)  
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CASA confirm that there are no accidents or incidents on record attributed to a pilot's CVD.
Here's the original questions that were asked by Senator Fawcett during the Senate Estimates hearings late last year:

More info is available through the CVDPA Empire Strikes Back page. It's good to see that the Virgin Independent Pilots Association (VIPA) has also thrown their support behind the cause. There's no doubt the debate is heating up!

There's also another thread running in The Pacific GA & Questions section of PPRuNe.

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Old 11th Feb 2014, 21:46
  #303 (permalink)  
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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4
I put it down to the fact that the Lapl medical is done via your gp and not CAA so that the so called risk is on the gp to sign u off !!

The saying, "they're too scared to fart incase they themselves comes to mind....

They're scared to sign CVD pilots off so they'll pin it on the GPs. Who at the end of the day have nothing to worry about!

If they're that concerned why don't they let our own ophthalmologists sign off our colour testing for class 1 medicals?? Using the same 9/15 for the plates as the LAPL...
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 23:53
  #304 (permalink)  
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How can I book a CAD test in England?
Is there any place on Web I can find this test? (to test before go to England)?
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 08:40
  #305 (permalink)  
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Location: Australia
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More Info on CAD

Hi All,
The issue of the aviation colour perception standard is coming intensely under scrutiny, once again, in Australia. There is a great deal of political and aviation medical interest in the lead up to a new AAT (Administrative Appeals Tribunal) appeal by a colour vision defective professional pilot. The fact that this sort of scrutiny can happen at all says a great deal for the fairness of the Australian political and legal system. As part of this process, the nature of the CAD test is of particular interest to a number of people who have political influence. I have been able to provide a deal of basic information about this test, but I am looking for evidence that the CAD test outcome has little relevance to the piloting ability of individuals being tested. I have access to several instances where pilots with impressive and extensive airline experience have had to do the CAD, have failed it, and have then gone on to demonstrate there "safe" status by some other means. I invite statements from more such people to add to the weight of evidence on this topic. I assure anyone who contributes to this appeal that their anonymity will be totally assured. Please send details as a private message on this forum or directly to me at [email protected]
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 20:26
  #306 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Aberdeenshire
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Signal Gun Testing

Hi Folks,

Nice and simple. Do the CAA or EASA conduct practical lantern testing or signal gun testing?

Another thing also. What exactly does this statement mean:

Class 1 applicants who fail advanced colour vision testing can request individual assessment by the Authority under MED.B.001 (“issued by the Licensing Authority”) and consideration will be given to restriction of privileges to “valid by day only” and “no public Commercial Air Transport” (VCL + SSL-ILA + SSL-NCAT).

It's the last bit on the MED.B.075 Colour vision document.

Thanks again folks!!
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 21:24
  #307 (permalink)  
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CAA: Simple answer: NO

CAA: It means they will issue you with a class 1 medical but it will be stamped with restrictions 'day only' and 'no public transport'.

CAA: Appeal procedure? Internal to CAA (ha! As if they will decide anything different)

EASA? Can someone answer this?
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Old 24th Feb 2014, 09:22
  #308 (permalink)  
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CVD issues hotting up in Australia today!

VIDEO: Ex-military test pilot, Senator Fawcett, questions the CASA CEO in the Australian Senate over indications that CASA AVMED branch intend winding back the Ozzie colour vision regulations 25 years, ignoring the Denison case of 1989, and in so removing the careers of thousands of professional pilots with a CVD who have flown without incident for 25 years!

The CASA letter referred to effectively destroys the career of a current 6000 hour professional pilot on the grounds that he recently failed the newly introduced CAD Test in Australia.


N.b The AAT appeal case mentioned has not started because the applicant Mr. Obrien and the CVDPA have not yet found sufficient funds to fight the case which is estimated to be in excess of AUD$300k with the tax payer funding CASA's lawyers.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 00:53
  #309 (permalink)  
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Hi all

I won't bore you with the usual 'I've wanted to be a pilot since I was born' introduction - I'll cut straight to the chase.

From reading the entire 17 page thread all evening, I am incredibly concerned from a scientific standpoint as to the statistical validity of CAA's tests.

I'm just about to graduate in astrophysics and one thing that my degree has taught me is 'repeat, repeat, repeat'. Doing something once isn't scientifically valid: it has to be run multiple times to allow any 'kinks' to come to light in your test/test method. Moreover every repeat reading should be performed under the same conditions as their counterparts. If anything changes it must be noted and compensation applied.

From what I've read here, one simple run of the Ishihara test with a score of 100% is sufficient for the CAA to send you on your way with a medical certificate. Anything below that introduces CAD testing. Everybody that undergoes a medical should be permitted to sit every test method they would like too a minimum of 3 attempts, with each attempt under the same conditions as the last as well as under the same conditions that everybody else had to be tested under.

This may introduce some argument of 'the candidate could learn the plates and recognise the pattern'. This is already possible, thanks to the large number of free Ishihara tests online. Moreover it allows, to some degree, the candidate to take a second look at a plate he/she found particularly troublesome and either reaffirm their answer or disregard it and put forward a different one.

I cannot comprehend how, as the sole issuer of medical certificates in the UK, the CAA use antiquated and non-aviation specific CVD tests to assess pilots. I cannot imagine a pilot looking at PAPI lights, navigation lights or cockpit warnings for 3 seconds before turning away thinking 'nope, Ishihara said thats it now'. I do appreciate that on approach/take-off it is necessary to scan instruments and move quickly between say PFD and PAPI, but these use well established patterns/boundaries to distinguish themselves as opposed to their colour as the CAA would have you think (in the case of PAPI it would appear that distinguishing the angular resolutions is the most important aspect).

It also doesn't explain how an Australian pilot with CVD is legally allowed to fly into a British airport with a documented deficiency yet I, as a British citizen with a potentially smaller loss of colour acuity, can do no such thing in an airliner. Why? There needs to be some form of worldwide standardised test with which every pilot wishing to fly abroad should be tested against.

It is frustrating to say the least that so many great pilots have been denied a career on the back of what seems more of an old wife's tale than a medically sound procedure. I just hope that everybody that was denied this has since been able to find something else that they love doing for a career.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 19:42
  #310 (permalink)  
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Hi tomasjames,

I 100% see where you're coming from. I work in an oil field fluids laboratory in Aberdeen. We repeats tests 4, 5 sometimes even 6 times. One test is simply not representative. Like you say, conditions change all of the time.

The way the CAA test people for colour vision deficiency is completely wrong and in my opinion is very backwards.

It also has absolutely no significance to flying an aircraft safely in the dark. All the tests do are confirm that the individual is colour deficient, which we already know!! What we need is a test that shows we can properly execute flying operations in darkness!!

It's frustrating and very sad that today in the 21st century, ICAO haven't changed their standards and methods of testing CVD pilots.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 21:38
  #311 (permalink)  
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Colour blindness Glasses

Reading up on glasses to correct colour vision. Anyone know anything about these?
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Old 1st Mar 2014, 01:00
  #312 (permalink)  
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Hi WrongWayCorrigan,

To my knowledge the colour correction lenses are not approved for working or driving. They work on something like Ishihara Plates but when it comes to identifying light, they dim the light. They're more hassle than it's worth to be honest...
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 20:19
  #313 (permalink)  
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EASA adopting Austrailian standards

Hi Folks,

What are your thoughts on EASA adopting the compliance that Austrailia have when it comes to colour vision deficient pilots. When it comes to medical matters, a lot of ideas and procedures get copied from one aviation organisation to the next. For example look at the regulations that EASA now implement for type one diabetics (insulin injecting). That all started in Canada. Other regulators realised that there was no danger, so they realised they were in the wrong with grounding them.

Now that's it's clear that no apparent danger exists when a CVD pilot is flying thanks to Austrailia, when will other regulators realise that? And start adopting what's been successful in Austrailia.

Any thoughts would be excellent....
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Old 28th Mar 2014, 14:01
  #314 (permalink)  
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I may have missed this earlier in the thread but thought it worthwhile to point out that you can take the cad test at caledonia university in Glasgow....I just did it, cost £50 and saved me a train ride to london....didnt help me I failed it badly but hopefully it might help someone.
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Old 29th Mar 2014, 07:52
  #315 (permalink)  
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Reading up on glasses to correct colour vision. Anyone know anything about these?
I tried some of these. They're really strange. Yes you can pass an Ishihara test in them, but the world looks very different and I'm not remotely convinced they give the view of a person with perfect colour vision.

The problem with all these "tests" is that they are a solution to a problem which does not exist. Whilst everyone has an element of selfish about them to some extent and simply wants to get a clean medical and get on with their life, the ultimate aim should be to get rid of these tests completely.

Back in the day when I was busy being a thorn in the side of Sally/Adrian at the CAA the only incident they could reference in which CVD was a factor was Fedex/Tallahassee. Tenuous at best.

Fortunately for me (and at great expense) I managed to pass the Spectrolux test over in Dubendorf after getting 1 plate wrong on the Ishihara and 1 each wrong on the Banes and H/W at Gatwick. Apparently the scores I got at City Uni when the CAD was under development would constitute a pass, but I have it in writing that I will never be tested again and my medical status will remain colour safe so I'll probably never know.

Everyone stuck in the position I was has my greatest sympathy.
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Old 30th Mar 2014, 10:14
  #316 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
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I did the CAD test at Gatwick, having failed the Ishihara during the Class 2. I also failed the CAD test, but I was quite tired, and others who have done it I think would agree that it is mentally quite draining. I'm not convinced that it is purely a reflection of colour perception ability.

As the videos suggested, I think the CAD test is still somewhat irrelevant. The CAA (like most other British institutions) take pride in implementing everything to the letter of the law, therefore if medical experts have concluded that the CAD test is an accurate reflection of a person's colour perception ability, and some other expert has concluded that a certain drop in colour perception ability is hazardous to flying, that will pretty much be the end of the debate.
I'm not sure common sense frequently comes into British decision-making.

As the content of the videos suggested, the important question is not, whether these tests provide an accurate diagnosis of a CVD, but whether or not a CVD will prevent you operating an aircraft anymore safely than someone without.

The problem for CASA, is that ICAO standards are largely based on those established by both the FAA and CAA, who have both adopted this test, or at least the FAA are planning to adopt it.

If they continue without adopting it, they probably perceive themselves as risking their credibility, which might be crap, but they will probably submit to international pressure.
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Old 4th Apr 2014, 15:49
  #317 (permalink)  
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having heard on here about the CAD being offered, i contact Glasgow Caledonian university, and the offer the test for £25, i take it garethep you did all the clolour vision test at the eye clinic!!!

today being friday the 4 april, no more appointments are available till after the Easter break,

for me, i will try it again, as i scored 7.44 .44 over retest, so therefore that should not be used for scoring, if i get a clean pass on 6, or below, then even better,

plus they are supposed to test you for short initial screening and then the full test if a failure occurs!! makes sense!!!
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Old 20th Apr 2014, 21:57
  #318 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4

If anyone has been to the Glasgow caladonian eye clinic for the cad , please share your experience!!
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Old 23rd Apr 2014, 16:25
  #319 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nottingham
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I'm planning to take the Class 1 Medical - before I apply for training. I know I have a colour deficiency, but have seen the CAD test on YouTube and I can follow it all the way through. Should I try the medical or will it just be a waste of money?
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Old 23rd Apr 2014, 23:10
  #320 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4

The cad on utube is nothing like the real thing, the real thing is harder and time consuming. Either go to city uni or gcal eye clinic and do the test and if you pass take results to Gatwick
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