Navajo overshoot
Hahahaha pa31 at mtow level accelleration to blue line with a dead engine YOU ARE DREAMING old mate. Gear travelling, cowls open engine not yet fully secured.. snowballs in hell spring to mind.
ASDR nil wind is from experience more like 1200m @ 3342kg with vg's. From memory the book says ASDR is 1270m @ 3175kg so a bit conservative in many cases. Less than 900m you would probably need flap and 75kt rotate aswell so forget it.
Thanks Kharon/oldmate but if it's less than 106 I'll take my chances at min speed through the fence at the end of the runway.
ASDR nil wind is from experience more like 1200m @ 3342kg with vg's. From memory the book says ASDR is 1270m @ 3175kg so a bit conservative in many cases. Less than 900m you would probably need flap and 75kt rotate aswell so forget it.
Thanks Kharon/oldmate but if it's less than 106 I'll take my chances at min speed through the fence at the end of the runway.
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I see Chieftains operate easily from 950 metres all day, any day, in almost any weather. But, I guess if things go wrong, it might all end in tears as others have eluded to!
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QED
Desmo- Thanks Kharon/oldmate but if it's less than 106 I'll take my chances at min speed through the fence at the end of the runway.
Exactly, and well said; I believe that is the object of the exercise. An accurate appraisal (we're stuffed) a carefully constructed escape path (14th fairway Kickatinalong) and a well briefed take off plan (through the fence at 40 KIAS) worked out prior to commiting is much better than an "oh crap' Vmca related inverted landing.
XXX - I see Chieftains operate easily from 950 metres all day, any day, in almost any weather. But, I guess if things go wrong, it might all end in tears as others have eluded to!
No problem with 8 or 950 meters, provided you are aware of the risk element, the period of uncertainty with two good donks is very, very short; that period on one donk can last the rest of your life. No one is advocating 'nil ops' but everyone can agree that if you don't 'nut' it out before, there'll be precious little time during.
The poor old PA31, everytime one crashes everyone comes out with how an EFATO is going to kill you and the various ways of not flying to prevent this.
The reality is the aircraft has a long documented history of crashes and most have nothing to do with engine failure and the ones that are were not during the initial take-off period.
Around 80% of PA31 fatal accidents seem to be weather related, this encompasses;
- Loss of control in IMC
- Impact of high terrain whilst in IMC (most of the South American accidents have this as a common factor)
- Loss of control during instrument approach, there are far too many of these around the world where the pilot simply flew into the ground during an ILS
- Loss of control and inflight breakup in severe weather
- Terrain impact whilst circling to land
- Runway overruns/departures due to weather conditions
Many of these can be put down to poor training/currency/poorly maintained or lack of instrumentation.
The remaining 20% have a number of engine failures included however most are en route or during arrival. A common theme being extending gear or flap too early and losing control at low speed. In some cases a failed engine was not feathered at all. There have been many other successful landings with a properly handled failure and secured engine. It is hard to find many examples over the 40 year history of the aircraft of the engine failing at high speed during take-off. This is different to turbine based aircraft which tend to suck in things during takeoff to cause a failure around this critical time.
Another more type specific related cause of accident is departing on auxillaries or just simply running out of fuel due to poor fuel management.
Whilst dealing with an EFATO early on take-off is critical in the PA31 it is equally critical as to how the aircraft is managed if flight is continued especially when to introduce drag. There are many other things that will prove lethal if not thought out prior to the event.
Did JBI overshoot due to an engine failure during take-off?
The reality is the aircraft has a long documented history of crashes and most have nothing to do with engine failure and the ones that are were not during the initial take-off period.
Around 80% of PA31 fatal accidents seem to be weather related, this encompasses;
- Loss of control in IMC
- Impact of high terrain whilst in IMC (most of the South American accidents have this as a common factor)
- Loss of control during instrument approach, there are far too many of these around the world where the pilot simply flew into the ground during an ILS
- Loss of control and inflight breakup in severe weather
- Terrain impact whilst circling to land
- Runway overruns/departures due to weather conditions
Many of these can be put down to poor training/currency/poorly maintained or lack of instrumentation.
The remaining 20% have a number of engine failures included however most are en route or during arrival. A common theme being extending gear or flap too early and losing control at low speed. In some cases a failed engine was not feathered at all. There have been many other successful landings with a properly handled failure and secured engine. It is hard to find many examples over the 40 year history of the aircraft of the engine failing at high speed during take-off. This is different to turbine based aircraft which tend to suck in things during takeoff to cause a failure around this critical time.
Another more type specific related cause of accident is departing on auxillaries or just simply running out of fuel due to poor fuel management.
Whilst dealing with an EFATO early on take-off is critical in the PA31 it is equally critical as to how the aircraft is managed if flight is continued especially when to introduce drag. There are many other things that will prove lethal if not thought out prior to the event.
Did JBI overshoot due to an engine failure during take-off?
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Correct
43 " -
Could not agree more; I guess I was using the OEI scenario to highlight 'awaremess situation'. EFATO is always a great tool for producing thinking, where am I, where do I want to be, how do I get there and the two biggies, what have I got and what's in the way.
The old saw – "avoid high performance weather in low performance aircraft" always get 'em thinking.
Yep, the PA 31 does get a bit of stick, but it is an aircraft most can relate to and a classic POM numbers versus survival Touch wood, never met a really evil one yet, but some have, on occasion, tried my patience. -
Anyway - it's all in a good cause.
- Loss of control in IMC
- Impact of high terrain whilst in IMC (most of the South American accidents have this as a common factor)
- Loss of control during instrument approach, there are far too many of these around the world where the pilot simply flew into the ground during an ILS
- Loss of control and inflight breakup in severe weather
- Terrain impact whilst circling to land
- Runway overruns/departures due to weather conditions
Many of these can be put down to poor training/currency/poorly maintained or lack of instrumentation.
- Impact of high terrain whilst in IMC (most of the South American accidents have this as a common factor)
- Loss of control during instrument approach, there are far too many of these around the world where the pilot simply flew into the ground during an ILS
- Loss of control and inflight breakup in severe weather
- Terrain impact whilst circling to land
- Runway overruns/departures due to weather conditions
Many of these can be put down to poor training/currency/poorly maintained or lack of instrumentation.
Could not agree more; I guess I was using the OEI scenario to highlight 'awaremess situation'. EFATO is always a great tool for producing thinking, where am I, where do I want to be, how do I get there and the two biggies, what have I got and what's in the way.
The old saw – "avoid high performance weather in low performance aircraft" always get 'em thinking.
Yep, the PA 31 does get a bit of stick, but it is an aircraft most can relate to and a classic POM numbers versus survival Touch wood, never met a really evil one yet, but some have, on occasion, tried my patience. -
Anyway - it's all in a good cause.
You pussies would not have lasted 10 secs in PNG!
Aviation can be a dangerous business. Leaving the ground surrounded in aluminium is not without its dangers.
However, you can run with the safety aspect only so far. At some stage, you have to make a decision, and take off!
Get over it.... And get on with it. It's not that hard!
Aviation can be a dangerous business. Leaving the ground surrounded in aluminium is not without its dangers.
However, you can run with the safety aspect only so far. At some stage, you have to make a decision, and take off!
Get over it.... And get on with it. It's not that hard!
I was always under the impression that JBI was flown by a well known and longtime YMMB CPL, or has that changed over the last few years?
Used to operate an RFDS PA-31/310(no VG kit) into a 625m airstrip, all fitted on the P charts as per the Australian flight manual, must have been legal otherwise the CP wouldn't have allowed.
Promair used to operate their PA-31/310's in Cape Barren Island when it was under 600m in length, in the mid 1980's.
Used to operate an RFDS PA-31/310(no VG kit) into a 625m airstrip, all fitted on the P charts as per the Australian flight manual, must have been legal otherwise the CP wouldn't have allowed.
Promair used to operate their PA-31/310's in Cape Barren Island when it was under 600m in length, in the mid 1980's.
