Matt Hall loads his pants!
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Nobody is criticising the guy, he's obviously a skilled pilot and he chooses to use his skills in the way that he does. It is clearly dangerous, but then so is riding a bicycle in the city. I fully understand why he enjoys it, having been involved in racing cars and motorcycles in my youth. Plus he probably makes a few dollars as well...
Eventually one of these guys is going to die doing this stuff, but that's the nature of the game. As long as they understand the risks, let them get on with it with as little interference as possible.
I don't find it that interesting because the nuances that separate a good performance from a not so good one are hard to see. Having said that, it beats the crap out of at least half the sports out there in terms of entertainment value!
And if it gets a few youngsters into aviation...
Eventually one of these guys is going to die doing this stuff, but that's the nature of the game. As long as they understand the risks, let them get on with it with as little interference as possible.
I don't find it that interesting because the nuances that separate a good performance from a not so good one are hard to see. Having said that, it beats the crap out of at least half the sports out there in terms of entertainment value!
And if it gets a few youngsters into aviation...
I guess we all have opinions here & there's always room for healthy debate. But personally I wouldn't 'temp' fate as such & increase the risks of leaving my family fatherless, but that's just me. I agree with 'Forkie' after a few minutes of that stunt flying it's boring bit like watching race cars go round & round, boring! And as other/shave said here half (most likely more) go to see a crash, sadly.
Whether he (Matt)ought to be doing it? Well only he knows if it's 'worth' it. Got nothing to do with skill, he's the tip of the sword for sure.
I bet we would all be saying something quite different here had Matt been unlucky & bought the farm, the prime word here would be 'condolences'............but it wasn't so............this time!
Sure being older (wowsers) has it's benefits, wisdom like experience comes with age.
Wmk2
Whether he (Matt)ought to be doing it? Well only he knows if it's 'worth' it. Got nothing to do with skill, he's the tip of the sword for sure.
I bet we would all be saying something quite different here had Matt been unlucky & bought the farm, the prime word here would be 'condolences'............but it wasn't so............this time!
Sure being older (wowsers) has it's benefits, wisdom like experience comes with age.
Wmk2
Originally Posted by Mirage3
This is akin to allowing hoon-racing by young males in high powered aircraft but I think if you do it in your car, they take your licence and pulverise your car.
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These aren't your everyday weekend warriors. They're highly trained aerobatic professionals who have been specially picked to compete in the RBAR.
Happens to some of the best.
Matt was just bloody lucky to get away with it this time.
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His choice, his skill, his life.
Never been to one but can only guess that course and spectator positioning set to not involve public if it goes pear shaped.
My choice is to watch, enjoy and envy the skill, thrill and $.
Never been to one but can only guess that course and spectator positioning set to not involve public if it goes pear shaped.
My choice is to watch, enjoy and envy the skill, thrill and $.
Join Date: May 2007
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Australia is sooooo a nanny state and culture, with gross exceptions for sporting events ,of course. you can drive your F1 car at the speed of heat around albert park, but can get you family sedan impounded for a bit of a wheelie on a public road. the head copper of road traffic in Vic can preach about how bad it is to speed (in support of the revenue harvesting speed, errr sorry, 'safety' cameras) and then pass of his own speeding as being a bit of a slip attention and no biggie really, 'just a litte bit over'.
I just got back fron Europe and having flown into KL where there was a short announcement such as "drug importation is regarded as a serious offence in malaysia and is punished by a mandatory death sentence", on the way in to the UK, an announcement "due to health and quarantine requirements the aircarft will be sprayed before we arrive in London"
on arrival back into Aus is the obligatory 40 minute video about cunstoms, immigration, quarantine, passports and all other manner of tripe that made me miss the last bit of the crap movie that i was watching.
The Europeans have a much more relaxed attitude to speeding and the like. they even tolerate plane spotters muppets as a part of life's rich tapestry. I was in the office of the chief pilot of a Czech oeprator, on a privately owned rural bohemian airport, when a knock on the door and two heads, festooned with camera straps, poke around it and introduce themselves and ask to have the hangar opened so that they can note the tail numbers of some interesting aircraft that they had heard about at this airfield. our host very graciously summoned his cheif technician from poring over some ruski jet engine and tasked him to take these blokes on a guided tour, amazing..
RBAR will result in a fatality sooner or later, it is very difficult to mtigate risk greatly in this environment, unlike a race track where 2 dimensions can contain catastrophic events in most cases. add the third dimension, ballistics and very marginal protection for participants and spectators. risk Reduction is the remaining consideration and this is where the prime efforts for RBAR is directed, though it wouyld seem that more could be done. This is not such a thing as to be regarded in a blase manner, though pilot's ego's (and i know i am no exception) can lead one to make light of mistakes which can have very serious implications.
I were a ag pilot once and not without several 'close shaves' similar to that of Matty's. I did always try my best to confront the issue properly and put my hand up if it was a straight out
up on my behalf, which it usually was. With constant exposure to the high risk environment it is possible to operate with very small margins ( as ag pilopts do every day) but there must be a margin all the same, even when racing like these guys are, ignore that and you will see than 'bouncing' more often. this is not actually the way to win races as winners only are counted at the finish.
There is a limit to how many times you can 'touch the wall' and get away with it.
Don't stop RBAR, but it must, and surely is, subject to review and councelling etc by the organizers and stewards of the event.
That having been said I am sure that this will not make less people come and watch racing, a bit of inherent danger is a part of the thrill that draws crowds. occaisional incidents like this will bring the masses like a gladiator fight in the coloseum did.
It is still way safer that the Isle of Man TT races that have been on telly this week and where i saw Mike the Bike and Joey Dunlop race in the late 70's, nor did the sheer danger of the 'track' stop me from doing my best to emulate them on a 500cc triumph on 'Mad Sunday'. mea culpa. two germans killed themselves on their hondas on the mountain that day, but they just hosed the stone fences down and re-opened the road as soon as the ambo's left.
nothing wrong with blood sports, but don't pretend that it's all bright and shiney if your fliying suit has a big brown stain in the pants. F18 jockey or not, all that tax payers money that has been invested does not garantee that risks are always correctly balanced, and mistakes acknowledged. of course the press release can be very different from Matty's actual opinion on the subject. I (we) do not know the reality, only the hype.
HD
"The older I get the Better I was"
I just got back fron Europe and having flown into KL where there was a short announcement such as "drug importation is regarded as a serious offence in malaysia and is punished by a mandatory death sentence", on the way in to the UK, an announcement "due to health and quarantine requirements the aircarft will be sprayed before we arrive in London"
on arrival back into Aus is the obligatory 40 minute video about cunstoms, immigration, quarantine, passports and all other manner of tripe that made me miss the last bit of the crap movie that i was watching.
The Europeans have a much more relaxed attitude to speeding and the like. they even tolerate plane spotters muppets as a part of life's rich tapestry. I was in the office of the chief pilot of a Czech oeprator, on a privately owned rural bohemian airport, when a knock on the door and two heads, festooned with camera straps, poke around it and introduce themselves and ask to have the hangar opened so that they can note the tail numbers of some interesting aircraft that they had heard about at this airfield. our host very graciously summoned his cheif technician from poring over some ruski jet engine and tasked him to take these blokes on a guided tour, amazing..
RBAR will result in a fatality sooner or later, it is very difficult to mtigate risk greatly in this environment, unlike a race track where 2 dimensions can contain catastrophic events in most cases. add the third dimension, ballistics and very marginal protection for participants and spectators. risk Reduction is the remaining consideration and this is where the prime efforts for RBAR is directed, though it wouyld seem that more could be done. This is not such a thing as to be regarded in a blase manner, though pilot's ego's (and i know i am no exception) can lead one to make light of mistakes which can have very serious implications.
I were a ag pilot once and not without several 'close shaves' similar to that of Matty's. I did always try my best to confront the issue properly and put my hand up if it was a straight out
up on my behalf, which it usually was. With constant exposure to the high risk environment it is possible to operate with very small margins ( as ag pilopts do every day) but there must be a margin all the same, even when racing like these guys are, ignore that and you will see than 'bouncing' more often. this is not actually the way to win races as winners only are counted at the finish.There is a limit to how many times you can 'touch the wall' and get away with it.
Don't stop RBAR, but it must, and surely is, subject to review and councelling etc by the organizers and stewards of the event.
That having been said I am sure that this will not make less people come and watch racing, a bit of inherent danger is a part of the thrill that draws crowds. occaisional incidents like this will bring the masses like a gladiator fight in the coloseum did.
It is still way safer that the Isle of Man TT races that have been on telly this week and where i saw Mike the Bike and Joey Dunlop race in the late 70's, nor did the sheer danger of the 'track' stop me from doing my best to emulate them on a 500cc triumph on 'Mad Sunday'. mea culpa. two germans killed themselves on their hondas on the mountain that day, but they just hosed the stone fences down and re-opened the road as soon as the ambo's left.
nothing wrong with blood sports, but don't pretend that it's all bright and shiney if your fliying suit has a big brown stain in the pants. F18 jockey or not, all that tax payers money that has been invested does not garantee that risks are always correctly balanced, and mistakes acknowledged. of course the press release can be very different from Matty's actual opinion on the subject. I (we) do not know the reality, only the hype.
HD
"The older I get the Better I was"
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I wasn't for a minute suggesting that that RBAR be banned...I actually enjoyed watching the first few series, but it's gotten all a little "same ol' same ol' " now saved only by those that I know personally that have been or are currently involved...I've also been know to "depart from straight and level" on the odd occasion myself...and I also enjoy watching rallying, F1, V8Supercars, downhill, luge and bobsled, etc.
I was merely stating that there will be a death soon and it will be interesting then to see how many will be "up in arms" when it is so predictable. Some seem not to understand the risks that are involved. Those that participate obviously do!
Would much prefer some of the more aerobatic competitions (like El Ain etc) be televised or even the more spectacular pilon racing (like Nat Air Races in Reno)...but I guess the appeal isn't quite as widespread.
I was merely stating that there will be a death soon and it will be interesting then to see how many will be "up in arms" when it is so predictable. Some seem not to understand the risks that are involved. Those that participate obviously do!
Would much prefer some of the more aerobatic competitions (like El Ain etc) be televised or even the more spectacular pilon racing (like Nat Air Races in Reno)...but I guess the appeal isn't quite as widespread.
Last edited by slackie; 8th Jun 2010 at 08:28. Reason: speling
I don't know whats worse - doomsayers getting off on smug predictions of a crash/death, or losers who attend high risk sporting events hoping to see a crash/death.
I have no qualms about what these guys do, it is a sport which is dangerous and will take a life eventually, just like many other sports. What I do have a problem with is Mr Hall trying to pass it off as mitigated risk! I have never heard so much bullsht in my life.
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I’ll have a go…………
Like every other pilot who is invited to fly in a Red Bull Air Race, Mat Hall is a highly experienced and highly trained pilot who is well aware of the risks involved with what he is doing. If you are having difficulty in accepting his opinion on the subject, then that’s your problem. If you actually listened to what he had to say without filtering it through the chip you (don’t worry mate there’s lots of others, so you’re in good company!) have on your shoulder about ex-RAAF pilots, you may actually learn something. He was not trying to “pass it off” at all, but was quite up front about the fact that he mis-judged the wind.
Of course you may actually be more experienced and knowledgeable in the subject than Mr Hall, in which case I look forward to further enlightenment on the subject.
Like every other pilot who is invited to fly in a Red Bull Air Race, Mat Hall is a highly experienced and highly trained pilot who is well aware of the risks involved with what he is doing. If you are having difficulty in accepting his opinion on the subject, then that’s your problem. If you actually listened to what he had to say without filtering it through the chip you (don’t worry mate there’s lots of others, so you’re in good company!) have on your shoulder about ex-RAAF pilots, you may actually learn something. He was not trying to “pass it off” at all, but was quite up front about the fact that he mis-judged the wind.
Of course you may actually be more experienced and knowledgeable in the subject than Mr Hall, in which case I look forward to further enlightenment on the subject.
So, have you read my original post Sand Dune?
I was in no way calling his skill into question, his time as an FCI speaks to that.
I was in no way calling his knowledge into question, his re-writing of the 2FTS syllabus while he was still there speaks to that (That is the urban legend anyway).
I was referring to the Flight Safety Article last March/April. What he was saying in that article was bullsh1t in my opinion.
But as usual, the ex-RAAF brigade arrive and tell me that because I have an opinion contrary to them, that I must have a chip on my shoulder...
Yes, it is, and as a free thinking individual, I am allowed to have one...
You have no idea what I am talking about do you? I was not talking about what he said on the day. I saw the video about the debrief and yes he was up front. That wasn't what I was talking about. But jump in anyway...you twonk.
But, no I have to admit, you're right CSD, I am just all cut up inside that I didn't get into the airforce. I vent my frustrations at any and all current and ex-RAAF personell. I even dress my dog up in uniform just so I can kick it. Did something stunt your growth or were you a knuck?
j3
I was in no way calling his skill into question, his time as an FCI speaks to that.
I was in no way calling his knowledge into question, his re-writing of the 2FTS syllabus while he was still there speaks to that (That is the urban legend anyway).
I was referring to the Flight Safety Article last March/April. What he was saying in that article was bullsh1t in my opinion.
But as usual, the ex-RAAF brigade arrive and tell me that because I have an opinion contrary to them, that I must have a chip on my shoulder...
If you are having difficulty in accepting his opinion on the subject, then that’s your problem.
He was not trying to “pass it off” at all, but was quite up front about the fact that he mis-judged the wind.
But, no I have to admit, you're right CSD, I am just all cut up inside that I didn't get into the airforce. I vent my frustrations at any and all current and ex-RAAF personell. I even dress my dog up in uniform just so I can kick it. Did something stunt your growth or were you a knuck?
j3
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Here is a list of the most dangerous sports in the World.
Cheerleading comes in at No.1 ... Pylon Racing ... No. 52
Cheerleading comes in at No.1 ... Pylon Racing ... No. 52
Most Dangerous Sports - Top Ten List
Oddly, GOLF is listed at #40 and Jumping rope (skipping) is #50.
What I do have a problem with is Mr Hall trying to pass it off as mitigated risk! I have never heard so much bullsht in my life.
As I said to you earlier in this thread, the risks are mitigated to a point that MH (and others) accept them. The risks that are mitigated include - but are not limited to - training, experience, selection criteria, water rescue craft, divers, wind limits, speed limits etc etc etc.
In no way is there a suggestion that the risks are eliminated or reduced to a level that equates to charter flying. Hell, even in commercial operations for paying passengers CASA has determined different levels of risk that are acceptable. That's why you can't fly single piston engine IFR / night with pax, you need life rafts beyond XXnm, pilot experience requirements etc etc etc.
Risk in aviation is NEVER brought down to a standard minimum. It is brought back to what is acceptable - and in commercial ops that is what level of risk CASA's policy deem appropriate for the (assumed ignorant) fare paying pax.
What is acceptable here then? Well in this case RBAR and the pilots have determined it to be the standards that we see today. They have mitigated the risks to a level that they accept.
It is this acceptance of risk that you seem to have an issue with, and again I suggest you look further into it. In my past I have done some things on mountains, on cliffs and in caves that I would not consider doing now as I sit beside my toddler and about to pick the elder one up from kindy. But at 26 I didn't think twice about climbing a mountain that I had watched three Koreans get choppered off in body bags two days earlier.
I would still mitigate the risks in the same way (avalanche beacon, ropes, training, helmet, ice tools etc etc). My old climbing partner is now a mountain guide. He is still willing to accept the residual risks. With my 2 little boys, I'm not.
j3pipercub, what exactly was it in the article that you didn't like? You've already said you don't believe the risk mitigation angle and had someone politely explain to you what risk mitigation is. From there you should be able to see that everything those pilots do is mitigating the risk associated with low level aerobatics. The only additional thing they could do would be to not participate, but that wouldn't be risk mitigation, that would be risk avoidance. You are correct that you're entitled to an opinion, but an opinion can still be flat out wrong and an opinion based on ignorance is worthless. Many people have no interest in listening to worthless opinions.
Thanks for the lesson stallie...
I do feel that the level of risk has not been mitigated enough. The majority of locations have the local populace/spectators/city/buildings in quite close proximity and I don't feel this is acceptable residual or properly mitigated risk. I feel exactly the same way about F1/Indy/V8's etc. That though, is the spectator's choice, provided they are fully informed of the risk involved...
The race is a highly competitive, fast paced event where hundredths of seconds can decide the winner. All of these pilots are far far far superior to myself in their skill. And yet we have seen two errors of judgement in the last 2 months, both fortunately not ending in death. Furthermore, for Mr Hall to admit that he 'broke his golden rule and looked into the turn' whilst only during practice indicates that even though these guys are incredibly skilled, they are still trying to best one another. Lets hope that their competitiveness does not result in collateral damage.
In my opinion, as wrong as it may be Aerocat, is that this level of residual risk will be deemed acceptable until someone apart from the competitors is injured or killed in an accident involving a race aircraft. Just like at the Melbourne F1 a few years ago...
And as far as the article is concerned... The paragraphs below
He admited that he didn't fly the aircraft as he intended... that tells me that everything he stated above is filler.
Once again, I don't have a problem with them going out there and doing this stuff, just don't try and pass it off as something it's not. It's not safe and in my opinion, it is not properly mitigated. If it was safe, you wouldn't have crowds lining the boundaries hoping to see a crash.
j3
I do feel that the level of risk has not been mitigated enough. The majority of locations have the local populace/spectators/city/buildings in quite close proximity and I don't feel this is acceptable residual or properly mitigated risk. I feel exactly the same way about F1/Indy/V8's etc. That though, is the spectator's choice, provided they are fully informed of the risk involved...
The race is a highly competitive, fast paced event where hundredths of seconds can decide the winner. All of these pilots are far far far superior to myself in their skill. And yet we have seen two errors of judgement in the last 2 months, both fortunately not ending in death. Furthermore, for Mr Hall to admit that he 'broke his golden rule and looked into the turn' whilst only during practice indicates that even though these guys are incredibly skilled, they are still trying to best one another. Lets hope that their competitiveness does not result in collateral damage.
In my opinion, as wrong as it may be Aerocat, is that this level of residual risk will be deemed acceptable until someone apart from the competitors is injured or killed in an accident involving a race aircraft. Just like at the Melbourne F1 a few years ago...
And as far as the article is concerned... The paragraphs below
‘The main aim of Red Bull is to entertain people safely,’ he explains.
‘Safety is my first goal – I don’t want to injure myself, or other people, or
damage the aircraft. The second is professionalism – showing that people
can rely on me and my team, both for flying and administration. And
after that, there’s the results – they’re definitely my last priority, because
if they overtake safety or professionalism, there’s no future in it.’
‘Safety is my first goal – I don’t want to injure myself, or other people, or
damage the aircraft. The second is professionalism – showing that people
can rely on me and my team, both for flying and administration. And
after that, there’s the results – they’re definitely my last priority, because
if they overtake safety or professionalism, there’s no future in it.’
Being very clear on exactly what you’re going to do, an exact and detailed flight plan, Matt says, means that extraneous factors encountered in
various race venues, such as confi ned spaces, buildings etc do not
become an issue.
various race venues, such as confi ned spaces, buildings etc do not
become an issue.
Once again, I don't have a problem with them going out there and doing this stuff, just don't try and pass it off as something it's not. It's not safe and in my opinion, it is not properly mitigated. If it was safe, you wouldn't have crowds lining the boundaries hoping to see a crash.
j3
Well nothing is "safe", driving your car is not "safe". I'm curious as to whether you've been to an air race or are familiar with the areas they fly in? They seem to be further away from the crowd than aircraft are at an air show, in fact that's one of the complaints I've heard about the RBAR, not close enough for people to see the action properly.
As for his priorities, just because he got it wrong does not mean that he's full of BS when he talks about safety and mitigating risk. There's planning and preparation, and then there's the execution. His planning and preparation is absolutely designed to make his activity as safe as it can be, unfortunately on this occasion the execution of the plan fell short. That can and does happen in any activity including flying passengers from A to B.
The chances of a spectator being injured seems pretty slim, so far the incidents that have occurred have all been in the display area. Risk to spectators at air show type events normally comes from aerobatic manoeuvres done flying toward the crowd line which is why those types of manoeuvres are generally banned. The RBAR doesn't seem to be high risk in that sense.
As for his priorities, just because he got it wrong does not mean that he's full of BS when he talks about safety and mitigating risk. There's planning and preparation, and then there's the execution. His planning and preparation is absolutely designed to make his activity as safe as it can be, unfortunately on this occasion the execution of the plan fell short. That can and does happen in any activity including flying passengers from A to B.
The chances of a spectator being injured seems pretty slim, so far the incidents that have occurred have all been in the display area. Risk to spectators at air show type events normally comes from aerobatic manoeuvres done flying toward the crowd line which is why those types of manoeuvres are generally banned. The RBAR doesn't seem to be high risk in that sense.
