Are jet* pay and conditions that bad?
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"How do they get away with that? That's peanuts for a pilot with that level of experience! I believe a VB 737 driver starts on a little over 100K, after 5yrs it's about 115K. I wonder how many ppl pull out when they find this out cos I'm seriously considering it 
"
This information is not correct. Well under.
"This information is not correct. Well under.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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What a load of utter crap.....
here are the j* figures
base for a 1st yr fo $85k + o/t around $10k + retention bonus $6k + day off payment (if you want to work them) $3-6k per yr + o/n allowances if you want to add them
after first yr $94k + add on's (see above)
most captains are making around mid $180k and with ones who chase the work around $200-220k
the A330 you can add another 15-20% to all numbers.
now, please no more bullsh1t numbers.
here are the j* figures
base for a 1st yr fo $85k + o/t around $10k + retention bonus $6k + day off payment (if you want to work them) $3-6k per yr + o/n allowances if you want to add them
after first yr $94k + add on's (see above)
most captains are making around mid $180k and with ones who chase the work around $200-220k
the A330 you can add another 15-20% to all numbers.
now, please no more bullsh1t numbers.
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tank...
it's a disgrace I know!...
unfortunately the whole industry is farked! and as long as the company's we all work for go on their merry way and keep dividing the pilot groups we will never see t&c's like you posted again.
it's a disgrace I know!...
unfortunately the whole industry is farked! and as long as the company's we all work for go on their merry way and keep dividing the pilot groups we will never see t&c's like you posted again.
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unfortunately you're talking about the forces of supply and demand here. Remember, supply and demand influence price (or in this case, T&C's). As long as there's a steady supply of pilots eager to sign up for F/O slots at $84k (and paying for their endo's), you won't see companies voluntarily bumping up their T&C's. Therefore the T&C's stays low.
But here's also where supply/demand works both ways....if the supply of new pilots (who meet the min reqs) suddenly dwindles or stops (heaven forbid!) through pilots taking up slots at legacy airlines or airlines paying more, the demand then increases which in turn increases T&C's. Airlines like Jet* will then have to offer more to get pilots....etc etc etc. If we had 2008 again, then you'd see T&C's inc.
However, keep in mind also that, whilst QF has some of the best T&C's around, there's a reason why they didn't make $$ last year and Jet* did. Salaries & related oncosts along with fuel are two of the biggest cost drivers for QF. Yes its nice to be an S/O on $150k but is this sustainable for QF? not in the long run, esp if they don't inc sales.
Hypothetically**, in order to make $1 in profit, QF has to sell a ticket for $10 which could be:
Sale $10
Fuel - $4
Salaries - $4
Overheads $1
Profit = $1
Now think Jetstar....
Sale $7 (being low cost to fly the same route)
Fuel $4
Salaries $1
Overheads $1.5
Profit = $0.5
LCC's make their money from quantity rather than quality. The moment you try to change the above variables (eg salaries), you directly affect the bottom line. However, its not all roses for QF - lower sales means the bottom line decreases given the high fixed costs (salaries and overheads). A QF captain still gets paid $220k to fly an empty B763 between YSSY-YBBN as against a full one.
Morale of the story: everything is relative. Its unfortunate that Jet* pays what it pays but it does so to keep profitable. In the above Jet* hypothetical example, if you swap the salaries from $1 to $4 (like QF), what does that do to the bottom line? --> ($2.5).
Now I'm in no way defending airlines or justifying it....just trying to put things into perspective.
Pharoah
** - there are no facts behind this...just my way of looking at it. (now I shall run and hide to avoid the flames
)
But here's also where supply/demand works both ways....if the supply of new pilots (who meet the min reqs) suddenly dwindles or stops (heaven forbid!) through pilots taking up slots at legacy airlines or airlines paying more, the demand then increases which in turn increases T&C's. Airlines like Jet* will then have to offer more to get pilots....etc etc etc. If we had 2008 again, then you'd see T&C's inc.
However, keep in mind also that, whilst QF has some of the best T&C's around, there's a reason why they didn't make $$ last year and Jet* did. Salaries & related oncosts along with fuel are two of the biggest cost drivers for QF. Yes its nice to be an S/O on $150k but is this sustainable for QF? not in the long run, esp if they don't inc sales.
Hypothetically**, in order to make $1 in profit, QF has to sell a ticket for $10 which could be:
Sale $10
Fuel - $4
Salaries - $4
Overheads $1
Profit = $1
Now think Jetstar....
Sale $7 (being low cost to fly the same route)
Fuel $4
Salaries $1
Overheads $1.5
Profit = $0.5
LCC's make their money from quantity rather than quality. The moment you try to change the above variables (eg salaries), you directly affect the bottom line. However, its not all roses for QF - lower sales means the bottom line decreases given the high fixed costs (salaries and overheads). A QF captain still gets paid $220k to fly an empty B763 between YSSY-YBBN as against a full one.
Morale of the story: everything is relative. Its unfortunate that Jet* pays what it pays but it does so to keep profitable. In the above Jet* hypothetical example, if you swap the salaries from $1 to $4 (like QF), what does that do to the bottom line? --> ($2.5).
Now I'm in no way defending airlines or justifying it....just trying to put things into perspective.
Pharoah
** - there are no facts behind this...just my way of looking at it. (now I shall run and hide to avoid the flames
)
I just don't get that you can be paid close to 200k to drive a hundred or so tonnes of dirt in the back of a truck yet you earn less than half that to fly a hundred or so tonnes of flesh. A dump truck is worth a few mill, a new airliner can be worth hundreds!
Someone is laughing out there.......
Someone is laughing out there.......
Join Date: Oct 2008
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I can tell you now, if Jet* and/or Tiger (heaven forbid) decide to go down the route of Flybe or Ryanair or whoever that offer zero to RHS of an A320 for $95k with 500 hrs thrown in (no guarantee at the end ofcourse)...exactly how many people do you think would line up for that? 
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unfortunately you're talking about the forces of supply and demand here. Remember, supply and demand influence price (or in this case, T&C's).
No it doesn't. Supply & demand in Australian airlines only results in varying entry requirements. In some overseas Airlines that require specific experience - YES; In some GA companies in Australia that require specific experience levels - YES; In Australian Airlines - NEVER. I'd love to be proven wrong but I've never seen the ideology work in practice in the OZ airline scene.
IMHO T&C's are not good in Australian Airlines, Largely because our union, association, gathering or whatever it wants to be called spent many years neither pursuing GA membership nor offering any real protection / influence in GA. The nett result is that there are generations of GA pilots who learnt to look after number 1 so well that they don't see any value in group cohesion when they make it to an airline. And why would they? The concept of group dynamics & the greater good (ie Do no harm) is a foreign concept for many, & one that needs to be explained early & readily supported by a higher power.
Seasonally Adjusted
I just don't get that you can be paid close to 200k to drive a hundred or so tonnes of dirt in the back of a truck
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NEWS UPDATE!!!
Germany and Japan have lost the war...and Robert Gordon Menzies is no longer the Prime Minister of Australia..............more later!
If someone was earning $3,000,000 per year 20 years ago as a QF 767 F/O then good luck to him, lucky bugger - right place, right time, ain't available now.
For those looking at entry airline positions in Australia today - look at what's on offer, apply, be processed, accept or reject as you see fit.
The good old days have gone - so has loyalty; if you see an advantage in paying/getting some time then f**king off overseas for money/adventure/whatever so be it - you've paid for your rating, you have no no obligations to your employer - and your employer is half expecting that.
Ignore (or maybe filter) the advice of the chest thumpers "...IN MY DAY..."; that was their day, this is your day, their desire for a return to the value of their service to airline XXX I appreciate and applaud, their mentality and logic I don't understand as it has no basis in the real world - as is not going to happen.
If airlines start cancelling flights because no-one wants to be a pilot anymore (so T&C's are forced up up) could someone please crawl across.. a hell frozen over.. to advise.
Cheers
galdian
Germany and Japan have lost the war...and Robert Gordon Menzies is no longer the Prime Minister of Australia..............more later!
If someone was earning $3,000,000 per year 20 years ago as a QF 767 F/O then good luck to him, lucky bugger - right place, right time, ain't available now.
For those looking at entry airline positions in Australia today - look at what's on offer, apply, be processed, accept or reject as you see fit.
The good old days have gone - so has loyalty; if you see an advantage in paying/getting some time then f**king off overseas for money/adventure/whatever so be it - you've paid for your rating, you have no no obligations to your employer - and your employer is half expecting that.
Ignore (or maybe filter) the advice of the chest thumpers "...IN MY DAY..."; that was their day, this is your day, their desire for a return to the value of their service to airline XXX I appreciate and applaud, their mentality and logic I don't understand as it has no basis in the real world - as is not going to happen.
If airlines start cancelling flights because no-one wants to be a pilot anymore (so T&C's are forced up up) could someone please crawl across.. a hell frozen over.. to advise.
Cheers
galdian
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and as a forgotted:
cut some slack, some have said the questions asked on this forum should have been addressed to pornstar directly - I assume at the interview.
for the rambo's who think their talents and abilities are so great that employment can't be denied - go for it.
personally I'll stick with something lesser, maybe that's just me - and one or two others in the universe.
cheers yet again
galdian
cut some slack, some have said the questions asked on this forum should have been addressed to pornstar directly - I assume at the interview.
for the rambo's who think their talents and abilities are so great that employment can't be denied - go for it.
personally I'll stick with something lesser, maybe that's just me - and one or two others in the universe.
cheers yet again
galdian
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Regarding the above post, Flybe do not do a pay to fly scheme. They pay your type rating (q400 - 3 year bond) and don't even charge you for the application! In fact they are one of the last remaining airlines that offer part sponsorships(region of £20k) for guys without a cpl.
Easyjet as far as I'm aware is the biggest offender when it comes to pay to fly, however I believe they are in need of around 200 fo's this year so hopefully all those guys will be getting jobs before end of financial year.
And when I say pay to fly I mean paying for type rating plus experience on type (150-500 hours)
Bear in mind that this practice has been going on for years at company's like astreus, even during the last upturn. There's always gonna be someone with money to burn and a desire to 'jump the queue'
Easyjet as far as I'm aware is the biggest offender when it comes to pay to fly, however I believe they are in need of around 200 fo's this year so hopefully all those guys will be getting jobs before end of financial year.
And when I say pay to fly I mean paying for type rating plus experience on type (150-500 hours)
Bear in mind that this practice has been going on for years at company's like astreus, even during the last upturn. There's always gonna be someone with money to burn and a desire to 'jump the queue'
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For current pilot's agreements check out www.fairwork.gov.au
VB, J*, QF but I couldn't find Tiger???
VB, J*, QF but I couldn't find Tiger???
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Galdian has it right, except for one point! The past pay was of the gravy train days. Have a look at the "Professional Engineers pay" thread. An engineer (not lame) with similar years experience will get around 180-220k if it's mining related, low 100s elsewhere.
If I was flying in Australia my base would have to be 160K pa as an F/O to have kept up with previous income from 2001/2, and a captain around 220K! Not likely anymore, except maybe QF!!
As to going OS, they are doing their best to drag the pay down there as well. The best that can be hoped for is to delay the decay!
You can argue as much as you like about perceived worth, but I'm sorry, if you compare against other professions and you're earning 180K+ pa, you should be pretty bloody happy(as a captain).
If I was flying in Australia my base would have to be 160K pa as an F/O to have kept up with previous income from 2001/2, and a captain around 220K! Not likely anymore, except maybe QF!!
As to going OS, they are doing their best to drag the pay down there as well. The best that can be hoped for is to delay the decay!
You can argue as much as you like about perceived worth, but I'm sorry, if you compare against other professions and you're earning 180K+ pa, you should be pretty bloody happy(as a captain).
No it doesn't. Supply & demand in Australian airlines only results in varying entry requirements.
Unfortunately the airlines still have a massive pool of people willing to pay their way to the top. This will cap sallaries until it is fixed because the net cost to an airline of a new hire is zero as they have paid to train themselves. Your value to the company is zero, they can replace you with the next person willing to pay for the privilege of being worth nothing. The pay is only set to provide a level of turnover and pilot experience base that is managable for the training department. If the airlines are forced to provide training at a cost to maintain a workforce then they will pay more to retain those that do the job best.
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What I've never understood is why such a large proportion of a pilot's salary is related to the size of the aircraft. Sure - bigger aircraft, more people, bigger hole in the ground, but worth 4 times more salary for doing fundamentally the same job?
If you could redesign the whole industry pay structure from scratch wouldn't it make more sense to have the majority of your salary for "doing your job" - since all airline pilots pretty much do the same thing, just with different numbers of people sitting behind us? Then a smaller percentage on top of that towards aircraft size/complexity (which normally gets better/easier as they get bigger!), people onboard, and years in the industry/company...
Even more contentious would be to pay according to risk profile - old complicated turboprop going OCTA to marginal airstrips would get paid more than a 737 that slides from ILS to ILS...
RR
If you could redesign the whole industry pay structure from scratch wouldn't it make more sense to have the majority of your salary for "doing your job" - since all airline pilots pretty much do the same thing, just with different numbers of people sitting behind us? Then a smaller percentage on top of that towards aircraft size/complexity (which normally gets better/easier as they get bigger!), people onboard, and years in the industry/company...
Even more contentious would be to pay according to risk profile - old complicated turboprop going OCTA to marginal airstrips would get paid more than a 737 that slides from ILS to ILS...
RR
