Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK
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DD, I feel your pain..
Were the patient intubated, had fractures or was a spinal she would have been very unlikely to survive a ditching.
So how much fuel did they arrive with to shoot 3 approaches and ditch? You're not putting down in the water unless you're about to flame out..
and 2x pilots but no mayday, no CTAF/unicom broadcast "i'm ditching Xnm N/S/E/W of xyz", no "hey crew, get those jackets out and make sure that raft is ready to go" ??!
It doesn't add up, much like the fuel figure I imagine..
Were the patient intubated, had fractures or was a spinal she would have been very unlikely to survive a ditching.
So how much fuel did they arrive with to shoot 3 approaches and ditch? You're not putting down in the water unless you're about to flame out..
and 2x pilots but no mayday, no CTAF/unicom broadcast "i'm ditching Xnm N/S/E/W of xyz", no "hey crew, get those jackets out and make sure that raft is ready to go" ??!
It doesn't add up, much like the fuel figure I imagine..
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Haven't read the whole seven pages, so apologies if I'm not the first to say it, but in my experience, it's uncanny how often a pilot whose skill and daring are trumpheted in the press (along with that grossly overused 'hero' word) immediately after the incident, when the evidence is compiled and the final report tabled, turns out to be anything but.
Call me an old fart, but in my opinion, a professional pilot doesn't commit to an island destination, especially at night, unless the weather is gin clear.
The boss is backing up his pilot. Some may see that as admirable. Cynics might think that he's doing so while trembling at the thought of the litigation that is almost certainly heading his company's way when the final report comes out, to say nothing of what recommendations the regulator might come up with.
Having said all that, successfully dictching a jet at night in open water without killing or even injuring anyone on board was probably a better effort than many of us, if we were honest with ourselves, would expect we'd be able to do ourselves. I'm very glad I never found myself in such a position.
Call me an old fart, but in my opinion, a professional pilot doesn't commit to an island destination, especially at night, unless the weather is gin clear.
The boss is backing up his pilot. Some may see that as admirable. Cynics might think that he's doing so while trembling at the thought of the litigation that is almost certainly heading his company's way when the final report comes out, to say nothing of what recommendations the regulator might come up with.
Having said all that, successfully dictching a jet at night in open water without killing or even injuring anyone on board was probably a better effort than many of us, if we were honest with ourselves, would expect we'd be able to do ourselves. I'm very glad I never found myself in such a position.
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Australia's capt Sully.. good grief...
quotes in todays SMH from Christopher Newns of Concept Aviation Supplies who has been flying small planes since 1973.(apparently)
"It's unlike the Hudson River [ditching], which was done in good visual conditions, by a very experienced pilot and co-pilot, and they would have had training exercises in a simulator"
Two main differences..they had no engines... and fuel.
"Whether the weather was bad at the time of departure, I don't know, but as they approached Norfolk Island, the weather suddenly turned to custard."
If TAF's had been obtained on the way, you would know that the weather was bad...
"The better option was to have a controlled landing into water rather than an uncontrolled crash at the airfield."
Or divert before you ever get to that situation...
"Regardless of any bad decisions made in getting to that point, in the end he made a decision and got the aircraft down safely."
Regardless?
The great australian media.........
"It's unlike the Hudson River [ditching], which was done in good visual conditions, by a very experienced pilot and co-pilot, and they would have had training exercises in a simulator"
Two main differences..they had no engines... and fuel.
"Whether the weather was bad at the time of departure, I don't know, but as they approached Norfolk Island, the weather suddenly turned to custard."
If TAF's had been obtained on the way, you would know that the weather was bad...
"The better option was to have a controlled landing into water rather than an uncontrolled crash at the airfield."
Or divert before you ever get to that situation...
"Regardless of any bad decisions made in getting to that point, in the end he made a decision and got the aircraft down safely."
Regardless?
The great australian media.........
I had a funny feeling the thread/story would accelerate faster than a locomotive.
There are a lot of valid questions being asked here and no doubt some will be answered by the officials (CASA)some day.
But for now I'd like to add some answers in the mean time.
The life raft is often placed in the 'boot' of these small jets as there is no room within the main seating area, besides such an item needs to be stowed well & truly for a ditching, hence it was not accessed due the rapid nature of the A/'C sinking, better to get out with life jackets only than to go down with the hull whilst stuck inside trying to retrieve the bulky raft amongst amongst all the med equipment & believe me at times the plane of full of it!
Mercy flights under extraordinary circumstances can be conducted from at the flight planning stage where there are no other options at hand & it's a life threatening situation, obviously SOP need to be followed for this with any Co.This will be determined am sure whether this applied in this case.
One thing that I have not read here but may have missed is COMMERCIAL PRESSURE. It happens in ALL sectors of aviation. These tasks represent big money & we ALL live by money alone! It would be nice to make all flights perfectly safe but we don't live in a perfect world now do we? Airliners to ultralights crash & will continue to do so, that's the very nature of aviation, it's all about risks, calculated risks. Am not saying that the hapless pilot was under any commercial pressure other than to complete the mission & to stay alive when it went sour or even PelAir where making anybody do anything they didn't want to but now after the event perhaps we can all learn from it. Humans have only ever learnt from making mistakes, I have, we all have in life.
I think under the extreme duress this crew where facing when a ditching was imminent they did a good job but also remember everyone what was going thru their minds as they knew they was running out of fuel must have been terrifying!.
Can you perform yr duties flawlessly under that level of stress when perhaps training wasn't as good as at airline level? And even then that guarantees zip!
As for the Wx forecasts etc? Well half the flights planned to such places wouldn't even leave the ground if they where going strictly by the book without some human interpretation, humans make decisions & sometimes not good ones whether that applies here we or not we shall see.
My most steepest learning curve & most challenging times was when I was doing OS MediVacs, this is an area that few experience.
More to come am sure but lets be objective hey?
Wmk2
There are a lot of valid questions being asked here and no doubt some will be answered by the officials (CASA)some day.
But for now I'd like to add some answers in the mean time.
The life raft is often placed in the 'boot' of these small jets as there is no room within the main seating area, besides such an item needs to be stowed well & truly for a ditching, hence it was not accessed due the rapid nature of the A/'C sinking, better to get out with life jackets only than to go down with the hull whilst stuck inside trying to retrieve the bulky raft amongst amongst all the med equipment & believe me at times the plane of full of it!
Mercy flights under extraordinary circumstances can be conducted from at the flight planning stage where there are no other options at hand & it's a life threatening situation, obviously SOP need to be followed for this with any Co.This will be determined am sure whether this applied in this case.
One thing that I have not read here but may have missed is COMMERCIAL PRESSURE. It happens in ALL sectors of aviation. These tasks represent big money & we ALL live by money alone! It would be nice to make all flights perfectly safe but we don't live in a perfect world now do we? Airliners to ultralights crash & will continue to do so, that's the very nature of aviation, it's all about risks, calculated risks. Am not saying that the hapless pilot was under any commercial pressure other than to complete the mission & to stay alive when it went sour or even PelAir where making anybody do anything they didn't want to but now after the event perhaps we can all learn from it. Humans have only ever learnt from making mistakes, I have, we all have in life.
I think under the extreme duress this crew where facing when a ditching was imminent they did a good job but also remember everyone what was going thru their minds as they knew they was running out of fuel must have been terrifying!.
Can you perform yr duties flawlessly under that level of stress when perhaps training wasn't as good as at airline level? And even then that guarantees zip!
As for the Wx forecasts etc? Well half the flights planned to such places wouldn't even leave the ground if they where going strictly by the book without some human interpretation, humans make decisions & sometimes not good ones whether that applies here we or not we shall see.
My most steepest learning curve & most challenging times was when I was doing OS MediVacs, this is an area that few experience.
More to come am sure but lets be objective hey?
Wmk2
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Read this gushing testimonial from someone called Christopher Newns of Concept aviation supplies.
Norfolk Island crash pilot an instant celebrity | Stuff.co.nz
Norfolk Island crash pilot an instant celebrity | Stuff.co.nz
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Just wondering out aloud while awaiting the ATSB report. A lot has been said about this being an intention ditching, but might it not be an unfortunate outcome of an attempted duck under, there being no mayday or comms referring to an intentional ditching. Or even a replay of the King Air at Coffs with a worse outcome .Gear position might be an immediate give away.
Anybody else think there is something "Tom Cruise-ish" about his photo? Not a twin? Maybe why he got the Cleo gig.
Anybody else think there is something "Tom Cruise-ish" about his photo? Not a twin? Maybe why he got the Cleo gig.
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If this guy gets Max Markson to represent his interests and to make hundreds of thousands of dollars in endorsements because he put innocent people at risk like this, then it is time for me to shuffle off to another line of work.
I am EXTREMELY disappointed this pilot was NAMED in the Pel-Air press release. Leaving aside the opinions of the pilot's actions and decisions what gives the company the right to name him? When did this become OK? 
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Tiger35 - you, sir are an idiot. Last time I checked you're fine under normal circumstances to fly under DA. It's a DECISION altitude. You start your go around there (if required). I'm with Hongkongfooey. He's had a shocker to get into that position, but once he's there, it's time to trust the old navaids a little bit more than the rules and tolerences might allow, and take a speculator closer to the runway.
Old mate was very very lucky, and probably doesn't deserve the kudo's. He porked it big time getting in the situation he found himself in. If I were him, I'd be crawling under a rock and hoping people forgot about me as soon as possible, otherwise future employers might remember him for this....
Old mate was very very lucky, and probably doesn't deserve the kudo's. He porked it big time getting in the situation he found himself in. If I were him, I'd be crawling under a rock and hoping people forgot about me as soon as possible, otherwise future employers might remember him for this....
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Tiger 35 - Have to disagree, im not one who condones breaking rules, in particulars minimas, however to throw down a blanket response such as yours is a big call. Never ever break minimums? If you were caught in a situation and had to choose between a cat III landing in an approved a/c at a non approved airport or ditching would you still not break the cat I DA? Hypothetical and not apllicable to NLK but clearly a situation where breaking the minima is the safer option.
In saying this, have had exp at NLK in the past and it is not a place i would be willing to bust the minimas in blind hope. Each threshold has a steep hill/cliff immediately before it and at the minima the approach spits you out at quite a large angle to the runway requiring a fairly sharp and immediate turn onto RWY HDG (this is often exagerated by unfavourable and strong crosswinds. Any mistakes in the rate of turn or your calculations of the 3 degree profile would be disastorous at best .
As far as trying to duck under and climb up to the threshold...that is definately placing you life (and your PAX's) in the lap of the gods. The elev is about 370', ducking under would involve scud running under cloud at 200', at night, towards a steep cliff with no hope of seeing the RWY lights from your position below the cliffs. If it was this or ditching...id take the water.
As far as places to push your luck, NLK would be one of the worst around.
Fantastic that everone survived and congrats to the careflight crew.
In saying this, have had exp at NLK in the past and it is not a place i would be willing to bust the minimas in blind hope. Each threshold has a steep hill/cliff immediately before it and at the minima the approach spits you out at quite a large angle to the runway requiring a fairly sharp and immediate turn onto RWY HDG (this is often exagerated by unfavourable and strong crosswinds. Any mistakes in the rate of turn or your calculations of the 3 degree profile would be disastorous at best .
As far as trying to duck under and climb up to the threshold...that is definately placing you life (and your PAX's) in the lap of the gods. The elev is about 370', ducking under would involve scud running under cloud at 200', at night, towards a steep cliff with no hope of seeing the RWY lights from your position below the cliffs. If it was this or ditching...id take the water.
As far as places to push your luck, NLK would be one of the worst around.
Fantastic that everone survived and congrats to the careflight crew.
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Anybody else think there is something "Tom Cruise-ish" about his photo?
otherwise future employers might remember him for this....
Last edited by Dances With Dingoes; 20th Nov 2009 at 04:28.
In the bad old days, when men were men and barmaids ate their young, it was usual and legal to go out to NLK without an alternate if the weather forecast allowed. We always calculated a PNR to either return to the mainland or divert. By PNR we had to be reasonably assured by the latest weather observations at the island that we had a very good chance of landing. PNR was typically about top of descent. Even so, sometimes it went wrong in the last 30 minutes and, having committed to continue past PNR, we were forced to either land by busting minimums or to divert with less than legal reserves. Those of us that went there often enough probably did one or the other or both at some stage. What we did know was NOT to persist with multiple approaches until a ditching became imminent. Better to miss and go somewhere inconvenient even if it meant arriving with only 20 minutes fuel. Fuel could always be stretched by shutting an engine down in the cruise and relighting it on final (done that).
After a few good frights and close calls, CASA saw the light and the rules changed to always require a suitable alternate for so-called remote islands. The two hours 'island reserve' mentioned elsewhere here no longer became a choice. In any case, two hours would get most aeroplanes to either Auckland or Noumea.
So, either the rules have been broken or there was an un-detected fuel leak. For the 'hero' status of the pilot to remain intact, I hope for his sake that it was the latter.
After a few good frights and close calls, CASA saw the light and the rules changed to always require a suitable alternate for so-called remote islands. The two hours 'island reserve' mentioned elsewhere here no longer became a choice. In any case, two hours would get most aeroplanes to either Auckland or Noumea.
So, either the rules have been broken or there was an un-detected fuel leak. For the 'hero' status of the pilot to remain intact, I hope for his sake that it was the latter.
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Horatio, Touche' 
however I defy you to find the " wreck " 
I was told ( by a guy who's had a GFPT for 15 years ) that the nearest suitable is 1.5 hrs away, so thats 1 approach and then
off to Noumea, sounds fairly simple, maybe I missed something 
Will be interesting to see if the toothless Tiger, called CASA, bow to media pressure and let this guy ( and Pelair ) off the hook, and not ban him for life like they should.
The comparisons being drawn between this and the Hudson river are
at best, one guy was faced with the sudden loss of all thrust with absolutely no warning, the other deliberately ran out of fuel after several hours of flight, please explain to me the similarities ( OK, other than both A/C ending up in the drink )
however I defy you to find the " wreck " I was told ( by a guy who's had a GFPT for 15 years ) that the nearest suitable is 1.5 hrs away, so thats 1 approach and then
off to Noumea, sounds fairly simple, maybe I missed something Will be interesting to see if the toothless Tiger, called CASA, bow to media pressure and let this guy ( and Pelair ) off the hook, and not ban him for life like they should.
The comparisons being drawn between this and the Hudson river are
at best, one guy was faced with the sudden loss of all thrust with absolutely no warning, the other deliberately ran out of fuel after several hours of flight, please explain to me the similarities ( OK, other than both A/C ending up in the drink )
When you live....
24 hour media cycle
Channel 7 news Melbourne is currently asking why they ran out of fuel and has made the link to the Air Ambulance contract in Victoria. No mention of last nights story funnily enough nor any comment from PelAir!
Channel 10 in Brisbane just ran a story and Jim Davis was interviewed and stated that the flight had the correct fuel loaded. So the next question is was it a mercy flight ? If it was reading the rules of a Mercy flight, did it really qualify? If it did would the patients partner be considered essential? AIP ENR 81.1.6 d. limit the operating crew and other persons carried in the aircraft to the minimum number required to conduct the flight. If not a mercy flight does Pel have a dispo for not carrying of an alternate for NLK?
Norfolk Is news website states as well as Channel 9 who said that the PIC advised that the flight was low on fuel arriving at NLK due to heavier than expected headwinds from APW...The questions keep on coming !
Norfolk Is news website states as well as Channel 9 who said that the PIC advised that the flight was low on fuel arriving at NLK due to heavier than expected headwinds from APW...The questions keep on coming !
Last edited by puff; 20th Nov 2009 at 07:09.
I wouldn't worry too much about the media calling him a hero.
I n 3 days when newspaper sales drop, they will then turn their focus on calling him evil.
The first media organisation to do that will be the one who doesn't get the exclusive.
Then it will be a week of A Current Idiot Vs Today a hero Tonight a villian slagging off at each other.
And it doesn't matter which one you are. The media only care about selling the advertising.
I n 3 days when newspaper sales drop, they will then turn their focus on calling him evil.
The first media organisation to do that will be the one who doesn't get the exclusive.
Then it will be a week of A Current Idiot Vs Today a hero Tonight a villian slagging off at each other.
And it doesn't matter which one you are. The media only care about selling the advertising.