Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK
So what do we know?
The aircraft flew to a remote Island, carried out three approaches, then ditched. Island reserve should at least be two hours - which should be more than three approaches, and they should have had variable and fixed reserve on top of that.
The interview with the Airport Manager, who rescued them from the sea stated that they had no idea at what time they ditched, or where they were. He stated that they were found in the water about and hour and a half after the accident, by one of the boat crew managing to catch sight of a life jacket emergency light bobbing about about two kilometres off shore. Only three of the six were wearing life jackets - the two pilots, and the patient were the ones who had to go without.
So - if there isn't a question or two in that lot, I don't know what else people need! You have to at least question how "prepared" this ditching was!
The aircraft flew to a remote Island, carried out three approaches, then ditched. Island reserve should at least be two hours - which should be more than three approaches, and they should have had variable and fixed reserve on top of that.
The interview with the Airport Manager, who rescued them from the sea stated that they had no idea at what time they ditched, or where they were. He stated that they were found in the water about and hour and a half after the accident, by one of the boat crew managing to catch sight of a life jacket emergency light bobbing about about two kilometres off shore. Only three of the six were wearing life jackets - the two pilots, and the patient were the ones who had to go without.
So - if there isn't a question or two in that lot, I don't know what else people need! You have to at least question how "prepared" this ditching was!
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To those involved, we are glad to hear you are OK, well done.
The experts will investigate for many months, anything else is school yard speculation and has no place here.
The experts will investigate for many months, anything else is school yard speculation and has no place here.
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Checkboard, re "prepared ditching"...
Would it not be unreasonable to presume that whilst trying to 'get under' the weather and then pop it up onto NLKs runway, that the aircraft may have impacted the water; thus not quite being a 'prepared ditching' ? ? ?
Whilst it is being a bit speculative, the reliable reports of only 50% of the occupants wearing lifejackets and no raft deployed do throw a few interesting questions to the mix.
Whatever has happened, it is good that all occupants got out alive and are ok. Could have been worse, thankful that it isnt.
Have they left the Island, and if so, who with??
Would it not be unreasonable to presume that whilst trying to 'get under' the weather and then pop it up onto NLKs runway, that the aircraft may have impacted the water; thus not quite being a 'prepared ditching' ? ? ?
Whilst it is being a bit speculative, the reliable reports of only 50% of the occupants wearing lifejackets and no raft deployed do throw a few interesting questions to the mix.
Whatever has happened, it is good that all occupants got out alive and are ok. Could have been worse, thankful that it isnt.
Have they left the Island, and if so, who with??
The experts will investigate for many months, anything else is school yard speculation and has no place here.
The provisions of CAO 82.0 relating to "Remote Islands" were created specifically to prevent this sort of event from happening. The forecast weather conditions at the island do not come into the planning requirements of the CAO. It applies "whatever the weather conditions"
Simply, there should be enough fuel to fly from the departure point to Norfolk and onto an alternate that is not itself located on a remote island.
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Questions
Tio,
Don't fortget this is a forum for discussion about aviation issues. Just like in the crew room or instructors room at any flying organisation anywhere in the world, pilots tend to talk about other pilots' experiences in order to learn and develop their skills. Pprune is simply a virtual variation. If you'd prefer not to be involved in the discussion, there's news sites that will give you information without the discussion.
Having listened to the Airport Manager's interview, I agree with Checkboard - they were either the longest approaches ever made to NLK or he didn't have the 2 hrs reserves.
Another aspect that puzzles me is that if he had time to shoot 3 approaches, why didn't he take time to brief those on the island what his intentions were? After all, they're the ones who would come out to get him.
Finally, for such a long overwater flight, I'd have made damn sure I had my lifejacket within arms reach (if not on) - that goes for the rest of the crew & pax too. No good having them in the back - it's like fuel in the bowser.
There's no doubt he made the very best of a bad situation - keeping the pax together etc. But how did he end up in that situation to begin with? Was it Pel-Air's SOPs that let him down, px from base (perceived or otherwise), was it other outside agencies giving him duff gen or was it his command decisions?
Any of which will provide learning points for all of us.
I await the ATSB report with keen interest.
Edited addition: The Airport Manager also mentioned they did not hear a MayDay call. How planned was the ditching?
anything else is school yard speculation and has no place here
Having listened to the Airport Manager's interview, I agree with Checkboard - they were either the longest approaches ever made to NLK or he didn't have the 2 hrs reserves.
Another aspect that puzzles me is that if he had time to shoot 3 approaches, why didn't he take time to brief those on the island what his intentions were? After all, they're the ones who would come out to get him.
Finally, for such a long overwater flight, I'd have made damn sure I had my lifejacket within arms reach (if not on) - that goes for the rest of the crew & pax too. No good having them in the back - it's like fuel in the bowser.
There's no doubt he made the very best of a bad situation - keeping the pax together etc. But how did he end up in that situation to begin with? Was it Pel-Air's SOPs that let him down, px from base (perceived or otherwise), was it other outside agencies giving him duff gen or was it his command decisions?
Any of which will provide learning points for all of us.
I await the ATSB report with keen interest.
Edited addition: The Airport Manager also mentioned they did not hear a MayDay call. How planned was the ditching?
Last edited by Trash 'n' Navs; 19th Nov 2009 at 13:22.
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Kudos to the Careflight Crew
I think you will find it is the careflight crew that kept the passengers together not the pelair crew, and the survival training that Careflight crew are given in regard to water survival, rotating the survivors through the middle to keep body temperatures up. Maybe if pelair manage to keep the medivac contract they will now send their crew for water survival training........ but I doubt it
As for 3 approaches, my rumor mill (its a good sources) tells me more like 5 approaches before ditching. I have always lived by the rule give it a second go then head off, unless you have a very good reason for doing the 3rd attempt but no more than 3, its funny because I learnt that rule at pelair.
for the comment about accidental ditching trying to get below the cloud and pop up onto Norfolk from beneath the hills, you do realise it was at night with and overcast cloud base dont you, if thats how it happened the aircrew should be grounded for ever.
Out of all this the real heros, that no one has mentioned are the poor careflight crew who have been thrust into this situation, most probably did most of the work in the evacuation of the aircraft and kept the patient alive for 90 minutes in the water, and kept everyones body temperature reduction to a minimum. Great work guys, you deserve an award for your efforts and an apology for being put in this situation through no fault of your own. you are the true stars of this horrible situation.
Once again good work careflight crew you guys are the unsung heros once again
As for the comment about min fuel being carried, that was the freight fleet not the medivac Westwind fleet, going to the pacific you always carried as much fuel as you decided you wanted, in any case min fuel would have been full fuel which should have given NWWW as an alternate!
As for 3 approaches, my rumor mill (its a good sources) tells me more like 5 approaches before ditching. I have always lived by the rule give it a second go then head off, unless you have a very good reason for doing the 3rd attempt but no more than 3, its funny because I learnt that rule at pelair.
for the comment about accidental ditching trying to get below the cloud and pop up onto Norfolk from beneath the hills, you do realise it was at night with and overcast cloud base dont you, if thats how it happened the aircrew should be grounded for ever.
Out of all this the real heros, that no one has mentioned are the poor careflight crew who have been thrust into this situation, most probably did most of the work in the evacuation of the aircraft and kept the patient alive for 90 minutes in the water, and kept everyones body temperature reduction to a minimum. Great work guys, you deserve an award for your efforts and an apology for being put in this situation through no fault of your own. you are the true stars of this horrible situation.
Once again good work careflight crew you guys are the unsung heros once again
As for the comment about min fuel being carried, that was the freight fleet not the medivac Westwind fleet, going to the pacific you always carried as much fuel as you decided you wanted, in any case min fuel would have been full fuel which should have given NWWW as an alternate!
Last edited by Captain Kellogs; 19th Nov 2009 at 14:58.
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I have a quick question...anyone can answer..
Firstly well done to the crew for performing so well in the face of adversity...
BUT
why is it that Mr Sharp finds it necessary to praise the actions of the pilot after a suspected double flame out due to fuel exhaustion, my understanding is that there were 3 MApp's. but not sure. And at the same time Rex find it appropriate to silently crucify their own crew after every incident no matter what the outcome (usually a good one).
hmmmmmm.....sounds like someones in damage control
???????????????????? And personally I couldnt give a rats if the guy was Cleo whatever of the year....DONT STRAY FROM THE REAL ISSUE HERE....fuel exhaustion !!
Firstly well done to the crew for performing so well in the face of adversity...
BUT
why is it that Mr Sharp finds it necessary to praise the actions of the pilot after a suspected double flame out due to fuel exhaustion, my understanding is that there were 3 MApp's. but not sure. And at the same time Rex find it appropriate to silently crucify their own crew after every incident no matter what the outcome (usually a good one).
hmmmmmm.....sounds like someones in damage control ???????????????????? And personally I couldnt give a rats if the guy was Cleo whatever of the year....DONT STRAY FROM THE REAL ISSUE HERE....fuel exhaustion !!
Well, I for one would still like to know why he ran out of fuel...
In the meantime the successful ditching is a matter of public record.
A fuel leak for example
"We" are not driving a car down the road, and when we endup without fuel we call the........
"We" (normally) do not continue flying untill our tanks dried up!
"We" always (should) have a plan B or even C!
Calling this socalled Capt a "Hero" is b.s.
He AND his crew scr...up!
Lucky all survived!!
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A real hero would have landed the aircrafton the first attempt.
I must be the greatest hero ever as i have never run out of fuel and have thus far never had to land anywhere but on a runway.
I must be the greatest hero ever as i have never run out of fuel and have thus far never had to land anywhere but on a runway.
The online media seem to have gone very quiet on this. Nothing on the front pages of SMH, news.com.au or ninemsn.
Maybe they've realised it's best to sit and wait and see how they ended up in that predicament in the first place before any more 'hero' claims.
Maybe they've realised it's best to sit and wait and see how they ended up in that predicament in the first place before any more 'hero' claims.
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Speculation
Capt K,
Any info fm your sources as to what they think happened?
Not enugh fuel loaded at origin, fuel leak, mechanical/electric problem with fuel pumps??
Before I get howled down, can I say that I'm very aware of the investigation process and presumption of innocence etc. I'm just trying to get my head around how an aircraft on such an important task can end up ditching at night in rough seas due to fuel starvation and for the airfield staff not to know about a planned ditch. I say planned because it wasn't the result of catastrophic failure so he had time to at least get a mayday out.
Any info fm your sources as to what they think happened?
Not enugh fuel loaded at origin, fuel leak, mechanical/electric problem with fuel pumps??
Before I get howled down, can I say that I'm very aware of the investigation process and presumption of innocence etc. I'm just trying to get my head around how an aircraft on such an important task can end up ditching at night in rough seas due to fuel starvation and for the airfield staff not to know about a planned ditch. I say planned because it wasn't the result of catastrophic failure so he had time to at least get a mayday out.
When you live....
Mercy Flight
There has been talk here of a mercy flight - can anyone confirm that it was (or wasn't) a declared mercy flight?
Anyone had any luck finding the TAFs for the period?
UTR
Anyone had any luck finding the TAFs for the period?
UTR