Tips and tricks for sector entry, holding patterns etc ...
This stuff ain't exactly secret squirrel business.
If someone asks for better ways to do the job, you don't make yourself look any better by making out they're stupid for asking.
Try to remember...
We were all there once.
If someone asks for better ways to do the job, you don't make yourself look any better by making out they're stupid for asking.
Try to remember...
We were all there once.
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I call a truce. This is developing into a s***fight.
Does anyone have any further constructive advice to efficiently and safely conducting IFR approach procedures? Thank you to all previous posters, especially the humorous.
Much obliged,
Two Dogs
Does anyone have any further constructive advice to efficiently and safely conducting IFR approach procedures? Thank you to all previous posters, especially the humorous.
Much obliged,
Two Dogs
Grandpa Aerotart
Hey look - its a bit hard to do without diagrams but here goes.
There was some really, REALLY weird **** written on Sector 1 entries on the last page which I cannot allow to pass unchallenged. Some crap about being too close to the inbound course and overshooting the turns and/or using max angles of banks?
Sector 1: After station passage turn to TRACK parallel to the inbound track. Timing begins wings level tracking outbound. When the time is up (1 minute +/- wind) carry out a rate 1 turn until on an intercept heading to establish inbound to the aid from inside the pattern.
Sector 2: After station passage turn to track 30 degrees off the reciprocal of inbound trk for 1 minute (+/- wind) carry out a rate 1 turn to intercept inbound track to aid.
Notice in both above examples we are joining the pattern from INSIDE the pattern?
Sector 3: Fly to fix and turn (rate 1) left or right.
With any modern GPS giving GS and TRK this stuff is now childs play really.
It really wasn't so long ago when we did handfly these on nothing but a fixed card ADF/DG and wrist watch - usually no DME - and it was fun
I thought all my xmas' had come at once when I finally flew something with a HSI and RMI
There was some really, REALLY weird **** written on Sector 1 entries on the last page which I cannot allow to pass unchallenged. Some crap about being too close to the inbound course and overshooting the turns and/or using max angles of banks?
Sector 1: After station passage turn to TRACK parallel to the inbound track. Timing begins wings level tracking outbound. When the time is up (1 minute +/- wind) carry out a rate 1 turn until on an intercept heading to establish inbound to the aid from inside the pattern.
Sector 2: After station passage turn to track 30 degrees off the reciprocal of inbound trk for 1 minute (+/- wind) carry out a rate 1 turn to intercept inbound track to aid.
Notice in both above examples we are joining the pattern from INSIDE the pattern?
Sector 3: Fly to fix and turn (rate 1) left or right.
With any modern GPS giving GS and TRK this stuff is now childs play really.
It really wasn't so long ago when we did handfly these on nothing but a fixed card ADF/DG and wrist watch - usually no DME - and it was fun
I thought all my xmas' had come at once when I finally flew something with a HSI and RMI
Old
People
Tend
To
Drive
To
Slowly
One
Parallel
Two
Teardrop
Three
Straight in
Always try to manouvre the aeroplane to be lined up on runway heading on a GPS/DME arrival by the FAF. In training, the school will have you fly your track all the way over head then circle to land. In commercial ops if possible try to intercept the runway heading to be established on runway heading by the FAF.
On an NDB/VOR maneuver to pick up a sector 3 if possible and track straight outbound in a continuous descent. Overhead the aid at around 4000 feet AGL works well for me. It also helps with not busting altitudes such as the MSA if you are single pilot with a high workload and gives you room to breathe. Watch the limiting height on the base turn of the reversal as this is where most guys mess up especially if assy as you need to be within 5 degrees before continuing the descent.
Always plan for the missed approach in your brief and have a clear plan in your head of what you will do. Through my IFR training you would conduct the missed approach, get a pat on the back and a well done son and never follow the scenario from that point on. The first time I got myself in that situation in a missed approach for real in poor weather I didn't really have a good plan of attack up my sleeve and fumbled around for a while working out what to do. When there is traffic in the hold it can get very messy especially if there is a mix of RPT and other aircraft all talking on the radio when you are in critical phases of flight requesting your position and intentions. Sometimes this is a hinderence so tell them clearly when you will call again such as on the ground or if conducting a missed approach you will climb to xxx and report your intentions.
Plan for the worst, expect the best
Oh and if there is forecast embedded cells remain visual if you don't have a radar. Nothing worse than breaking into an unexpected cell with your eyeballs bouncing in your head while trying to focus on the six pack. It can get very lonely very quickly in the pointy end and that sinking feeling is not very pleasant at all
(if this happens turn the autopilot off and slow down!!!)
People
Tend
To
Drive
To
Slowly
One
Parallel
Two
Teardrop
Three
Straight in
Always try to manouvre the aeroplane to be lined up on runway heading on a GPS/DME arrival by the FAF. In training, the school will have you fly your track all the way over head then circle to land. In commercial ops if possible try to intercept the runway heading to be established on runway heading by the FAF.
On an NDB/VOR maneuver to pick up a sector 3 if possible and track straight outbound in a continuous descent. Overhead the aid at around 4000 feet AGL works well for me. It also helps with not busting altitudes such as the MSA if you are single pilot with a high workload and gives you room to breathe. Watch the limiting height on the base turn of the reversal as this is where most guys mess up especially if assy as you need to be within 5 degrees before continuing the descent.
Always plan for the missed approach in your brief and have a clear plan in your head of what you will do. Through my IFR training you would conduct the missed approach, get a pat on the back and a well done son and never follow the scenario from that point on. The first time I got myself in that situation in a missed approach for real in poor weather I didn't really have a good plan of attack up my sleeve and fumbled around for a while working out what to do. When there is traffic in the hold it can get very messy especially if there is a mix of RPT and other aircraft all talking on the radio when you are in critical phases of flight requesting your position and intentions. Sometimes this is a hinderence so tell them clearly when you will call again such as on the ground or if conducting a missed approach you will climb to xxx and report your intentions.
Plan for the worst, expect the best
Oh and if there is forecast embedded cells remain visual if you don't have a radar. Nothing worse than breaking into an unexpected cell with your eyeballs bouncing in your head while trying to focus on the six pack. It can get very lonely very quickly in the pointy end and that sinking feeling is not very pleasant at all
(if this happens turn the autopilot off and slow down!!!)
Compressor Stall -thank you, thank you. I have been flying IFR for 45 years and always struggled with this sector 1, 2 and 3 nonsense. I simply disguised my inability (refusal?) to call the entries anything other than parallel, teardrop and direct entry. But Stallie, you have given me the key to be able to talk the talk in my briefings now. Seriously. One penis two tits - how will I ever forget that memonic?
As for how to fly 'em, the trick as Chimbu mentioned is to make an effort at TRACKING either the reciprocal (for the parallel entry - there I go again, can't help it) or 30 degrees offset for the teardrop. By tracking you get an appreciation of the wind, assuming it's not already nicely displayed as a neat little arrow somewhere like on a glass PFD or GPS screen. With the direct entry, if you are coming into it at right angles to the outbound, don't turn as you make station passage (common error) but hold a right angle heading for 10 seconds so as not to be too close in as you come around on to the inbound leg.
And do try to do the whole thing at constant speed and bank angles.
As for how to fly 'em, the trick as Chimbu mentioned is to make an effort at TRACKING either the reciprocal (for the parallel entry - there I go again, can't help it) or 30 degrees offset for the teardrop. By tracking you get an appreciation of the wind, assuming it's not already nicely displayed as a neat little arrow somewhere like on a glass PFD or GPS screen. With the direct entry, if you are coming into it at right angles to the outbound, don't turn as you make station passage (common error) but hold a right angle heading for 10 seconds so as not to be too close in as you come around on to the inbound leg.
And do try to do the whole thing at constant speed and bank angles.
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There was some really, REALLY weird **** written on Sector 1 entries on the last page which I cannot allow to pass unchallenged. Some crap about being too close to the inbound course and overshooting the turns and/or using max angles of banks?
Next time you do a Sector 1 use 10-15 Degrees AOB and let me know what happens k?
Put it this way you will way undershoot turning back inbound towards the aid as your intercept angle is extremely small on the sector 1- due to the fact you are paralleling the outbound track!!
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At the end of the outbound leg in the hold or sector entry, a quick glance at the tail of the ADF needle (or bearing pointer if you have one) will tell you roughly how the inbound turn is going to go. If it's showing about 30 deg offset from the inbound track you'll have no trouble, but if it's less than that, you'll need to steepen up the turn a bit to avoid overshooting. For this reason, the teardrop/sector 2 entry is brilliant because it'll always be 30 degrees.
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nkand
Next time you fly max angle of bank in the soup (or even worse, at night going in and out of the soup) consider carefully what you're asking yourself and the aircraft to do. Add a little bit of distraction - radio, passenger, other traffic, some real or imagined aircraft issue - retire to a safe distance and wait ... Sheer madness
Next time you fly max angle of bank in the soup (or even worse, at night going in and out of the soup) consider carefully what you're asking yourself and the aircraft to do. Add a little bit of distraction - radio, passenger, other traffic, some real or imagined aircraft issue - retire to a safe distance and wait ... Sheer madness
Hmmm.
Remember the PANS-OPS procedure is designed in 25° AoB or 3°/sec - whichever is the lesser - at the maximum speed for your category for that segment. If you fly a shallower angle of bank, your turn radius will be larger and you will very quickly find yourself outside the protection area.
However, if you are so concerned about maintaining a lesser AoB for reasons you describe you could calculate the radius of turn at the max speed, then using your slower speed work out the minimum AoB to maintain the same or lesser radius.
There are a few other complicating factors with this approach though.
There is also a school of thought (pushed by a large flying school at MB in the 90's) that for Sector 1/Parallel entries, after station passage you should hold heading for 15 seconds before turning parallel outbound. This is wrong. The procedure is NOT designed for this and you may soon be outside the protection area.
Mach - Glad to help. Its funny how something so simple is so hard to remember! I had the same trouble...
Chimbu - I wasn't so much thinking of Miriams, rather what fun can be had with both of them on different people. You've been in SE Asia too long methinks. 
Remember the PANS-OPS procedure is designed in 25° AoB or 3°/sec - whichever is the lesser - at the maximum speed for your category for that segment. If you fly a shallower angle of bank, your turn radius will be larger and you will very quickly find yourself outside the protection area.
However, if you are so concerned about maintaining a lesser AoB for reasons you describe you could calculate the radius of turn at the max speed, then using your slower speed work out the minimum AoB to maintain the same or lesser radius.
There are a few other complicating factors with this approach though.
There is also a school of thought (pushed by a large flying school at MB in the 90's) that for Sector 1/Parallel entries, after station passage you should hold heading for 15 seconds before turning parallel outbound. This is wrong. The procedure is NOT designed for this and you may soon be outside the protection area.
Mach - Glad to help. Its funny how something so simple is so hard to remember! I had the same trouble...
Chimbu - I wasn't so much thinking of Miriams, rather what fun can be had with both of them on different people.
You've been in SE Asia too long methinks.
Last edited by compressor stall; 11th Oct 2009 at 02:05.
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If you're above the 25Nm or 10Nm MSA I wouldn't stress too much about minimising the bank angle..in fact..make life safer for yourself and only hold above MSA if you can
Try and avoid holds in the USA. They do things differently here.
* Most missed approach holds don't have the hold's inbound track aligned with the arrival track/heading. It's nearly always a reciprocal so you have to do a sector 1 or 2 entry. Buggered if I know why when in most cases aligning the inbound of the hold with the arrival track could be done.
* Similarly many approach holds are also arse about so you have to do a reversal to establish on the approach outbound. Mind you, it's a normal procedure here to extend the hold's outbound leg and then turn to intercept the approach inbound track so that the normal, procedure turn type of approach becomes a sort of base turn from a parallel track type of thing.
* Timing outbound is done to make good the hold timing on the inbound, not outbound leg ie a 1 min hold is 1 min *inbound*. Of course the first lap around is guesswork but you're expected to adjust the outbound timing to make the inbound time work out.
* Hold entry sectors are never charted. You always have to calculate the sectors yourself. Surprised the Pommies haven't adopted the practice - anything to make things unnecessarily more awkward is always welcome there...
* Most missed approach holds don't have the hold's inbound track aligned with the arrival track/heading. It's nearly always a reciprocal so you have to do a sector 1 or 2 entry. Buggered if I know why when in most cases aligning the inbound of the hold with the arrival track could be done.
* Similarly many approach holds are also arse about so you have to do a reversal to establish on the approach outbound. Mind you, it's a normal procedure here to extend the hold's outbound leg and then turn to intercept the approach inbound track so that the normal, procedure turn type of approach becomes a sort of base turn from a parallel track type of thing.
* Timing outbound is done to make good the hold timing on the inbound, not outbound leg ie a 1 min hold is 1 min *inbound*. Of course the first lap around is guesswork but you're expected to adjust the outbound timing to make the inbound time work out.
* Hold entry sectors are never charted. You always have to calculate the sectors yourself. Surprised the Pommies haven't adopted the practice - anything to make things unnecessarily more awkward is always welcome there...
Grandpa Aerotart
Chimbu Chuckles,
Next time you do a Sector 1 use 10-15 Degrees AOB and let me know what happens k?
Put it this way you will way undershoot turning back inbound towards the aid as your intercept angle is extremely small on the sector 1- due to the fact you are paralleling the outbound track!!
Next time you do a Sector 1 use 10-15 Degrees AOB and let me know what happens k?
Put it this way you will way undershoot turning back inbound towards the aid as your intercept angle is extremely small on the sector 1- due to the fact you are paralleling the outbound track!!
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Easy method to determine sector entry on a terminal area chart etc.
Draw a line extending through the fix and the arrow head on the outbound leg of the pattern. Gives you a picture of the 70/110 line so you can easily determine which sector entry you will use.
In the days before the sectors were shown on approach plate holding diagrams, it was a very handy guide.
Draw a line extending through the fix and the arrow head on the outbound leg of the pattern. Gives you a picture of the 70/110 line so you can easily determine which sector entry you will use.
In the days before the sectors were shown on approach plate holding diagrams, it was a very handy guide.
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A little off topic, but does anyone have any tips for when you have the leans? I find that the problem is not that i dont trust the AH, but the second I look away to do other things, I automaticaly right myself with my head, no matter how hard I try!
It eventualy goes away, but is there a quicker way or a technique of getting rid of it? It makes approaches bloody hard!
It eventualy goes away, but is there a quicker way or a technique of getting rid of it? It makes approaches bloody hard!