Four Corners ABC 27 Jul 09 and Aerospace Aviation
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paplu, if the rant you're posting is indicative of the level of argument the students are having with the owners of the school, then IMHO you don't have a leg to stand on. Not a hard fact in sight that a court will take seriously in my view.
What exactly are you basing your claim on? If you still think you need an RMI, HSI or glass cockpit to be taught to CPL/MECIR level, you really haven't learned very much. Have a look at the syllabi and the legislation about minimum equipment. If you can't fly the hold and approaches with a simple VOR/ADF receiver, you don't have the required standard for the rating. The other arguments sound like a rant rather than you've got an actual case. Clearly you're p!issed off with the treatment you got, and I don't excuse racist comments or mistreatment, but as far as I can see that's a side show here at best, and doesn't constitute the case.
If you want sympathy and support, I suggest you lay out the hard facts about how the students have supposedly been cheated out of their money. So far nothing in this discussion has explained the fact how all that money has mysteriously vanished. From what I know about any training school in this country, you get charged when you fly and receive theory instruction, but not for simply being enrolled in the course or elapsed time. So unless you can explain where the money really went, you really have no case at all.
I'll also make a point about the law in this country: To be issued a license, you need to demonstrate to a delegate of the regulator that you have the standard required by law. There are no if's and but's, it's for the protection of the flying public and all in the industry, and the strict adherence of the ATO's and CFI's in this country to this law is one of the reasons that the Australian flying training industry is so attractive to foreign airlines, because they know that when someone rocks up with an Australian license, they know their stuff (or, more precisely, they can expect a certain minimum skill and knowledge).
So no matter how many hours it takes an individual student, unless he or she can demonstrate to the CFI the required standard, he or she will not be recommended for a flight test. And it shouldn't be any other way.
One last point: Delays are inevitable in aviation. If delays are excessive in one organisation due to lack of resources, nothing stops you from demanding monies paid upfront back and changing schools. If the school refuses, they have a case to answer and there is a legal system in this country that is as robust as the aviation regulation and you will get heard. In most cases a letter from a solicitor will be enough as costly legal battles are the last thing an entrepreneur needs. A judge might ask you why you paid large sums upfront in the first place, but if you can demonstrate that you didn't get what you signed up for, you'll more likely than not get remaining credit back and possibly even compensation of some kind. This is assuming you get proper legal advice and use the correct channels (legal advice being available for free in a lot of places, and the ABC report suggests the wrong legal avenues were used). The report suggests there was a requirement for monthly payments regardless of hours flown. Why on earth would any sane person keep paying when flying minimum hours, in effect just padding the school's bank accounts?
Throwing a big tantrum after the fact without some hard facts and good reasons won't get you much sympathy.. You either flew the hours and don't have the required standard for the rating (I'm sorry, but short of trying harder there's little you can do as the school will most likely be able to demonstrate they taught to CASA syllabus) or you have a credit with the school and thus have a valid case for a refund. Which is it?
What exactly are you basing your claim on? If you still think you need an RMI, HSI or glass cockpit to be taught to CPL/MECIR level, you really haven't learned very much. Have a look at the syllabi and the legislation about minimum equipment. If you can't fly the hold and approaches with a simple VOR/ADF receiver, you don't have the required standard for the rating. The other arguments sound like a rant rather than you've got an actual case. Clearly you're p!issed off with the treatment you got, and I don't excuse racist comments or mistreatment, but as far as I can see that's a side show here at best, and doesn't constitute the case.
If you want sympathy and support, I suggest you lay out the hard facts about how the students have supposedly been cheated out of their money. So far nothing in this discussion has explained the fact how all that money has mysteriously vanished. From what I know about any training school in this country, you get charged when you fly and receive theory instruction, but not for simply being enrolled in the course or elapsed time. So unless you can explain where the money really went, you really have no case at all.
I'll also make a point about the law in this country: To be issued a license, you need to demonstrate to a delegate of the regulator that you have the standard required by law. There are no if's and but's, it's for the protection of the flying public and all in the industry, and the strict adherence of the ATO's and CFI's in this country to this law is one of the reasons that the Australian flying training industry is so attractive to foreign airlines, because they know that when someone rocks up with an Australian license, they know their stuff (or, more precisely, they can expect a certain minimum skill and knowledge).
So no matter how many hours it takes an individual student, unless he or she can demonstrate to the CFI the required standard, he or she will not be recommended for a flight test. And it shouldn't be any other way.
One last point: Delays are inevitable in aviation. If delays are excessive in one organisation due to lack of resources, nothing stops you from demanding monies paid upfront back and changing schools. If the school refuses, they have a case to answer and there is a legal system in this country that is as robust as the aviation regulation and you will get heard. In most cases a letter from a solicitor will be enough as costly legal battles are the last thing an entrepreneur needs. A judge might ask you why you paid large sums upfront in the first place, but if you can demonstrate that you didn't get what you signed up for, you'll more likely than not get remaining credit back and possibly even compensation of some kind. This is assuming you get proper legal advice and use the correct channels (legal advice being available for free in a lot of places, and the ABC report suggests the wrong legal avenues were used). The report suggests there was a requirement for monthly payments regardless of hours flown. Why on earth would any sane person keep paying when flying minimum hours, in effect just padding the school's bank accounts?
Throwing a big tantrum after the fact without some hard facts and good reasons won't get you much sympathy.. You either flew the hours and don't have the required standard for the rating (I'm sorry, but short of trying harder there's little you can do as the school will most likely be able to demonstrate they taught to CASA syllabus) or you have a credit with the school and thus have a valid case for a refund. Which is it?
Last edited by PlankBlender; 1st Aug 2009 at 02:49.
Yeah Im a bit confused too. Whats the actual situation?
How many hours have you flown and how much have you paid? If you can tell us those two things then it will be pretty simple to work out.
ie: if you've paid $42000 or whatever and have only flown 50 hrs then you obviously have a good argument for being ripped off if they are refusing to give you your money
But if you have flown 150hrs or so then Im not sure what this whole thing is about.
Don't think Im taking AA's side but I would genuinely like to know the situation.
So Paplue, eesurendra if you could tell us the above details then that would help with understanding the problem.
How many hours have you flown and how much have you paid? If you can tell us those two things then it will be pretty simple to work out.
ie: if you've paid $42000 or whatever and have only flown 50 hrs then you obviously have a good argument for being ripped off if they are refusing to give you your money
But if you have flown 150hrs or so then Im not sure what this whole thing is about.
Don't think Im taking AA's side but I would genuinely like to know the situation.
So Paplue, eesurendra if you could tell us the above details then that would help with understanding the problem.
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course fee till feb 08 - Aud 43500
current course fee - Aud 50,000
course includes 200hrs(15hrs on multi included in 200) and 15hrs on sim books, test fee, etc.
after just doing abt 110hrs or even less in some cases.....AA asks extra amount to pay. These are some cases just go through the hrs and extra amount to be paid...
1. did 120hrs, 7hrs sim paid Aud43500- overflying charges Aud 145
2. did 98hrs, 4hrs sim paid Aud 43500- overflying charges Aud 230
3. did 175hrs, 15hrs sim paid Aud50,000 - overflying charges Aud 960
4. did 115hrs, 3hrs sim paid Aud 50,000- overflying charges Aud 320
just go through this is there any systematic in overflying charges and what they have did??
We never denied to pay extra, we just asked the account statement for what we hav paid, which they denied.
AA never charged extra for any student till feb 08. I know the students who passed out the school without paying anything extra except 1000 or 3000 for overflew charges. Later on students who ever passed they used to pay about 10,000 to 15,0000 to get their paper work.
80% of the students are Indians only. AA asks to pay 5000 every month wheather u fly or not. If u didnt pay, the booking are cancelled and threaten to cancell the visa. AA knows very well that we cannot do anything or dont hav guts. They are making money on this.
students per month
there are about 50 previous students who enrolled
june 07- 4
july 07- 15
aug 07- 9
sept 07- 12
oct 07- 16
nov 07- 10
jan 08 - 18
feb 08 - 20( only 1 is Indian)
april 08- 14
may 08- 11
aug 08- 2
later on no Indian batches only Aus are coming.
No. of students passed out from june 07 to jan-09 are abt only 20-30 studdents
AA fleet
10 c-152(all Indians are trained in this a/c only)
2 c-172rg
5 pipers
2 p-68 multi
1 duchess multi
Instructors at AA are good expect 3 or 4. There are abt 15 instructors.
Even instructors dont like the management of AA.
current course fee - Aud 50,000
course includes 200hrs(15hrs on multi included in 200) and 15hrs on sim books, test fee, etc.
after just doing abt 110hrs or even less in some cases.....AA asks extra amount to pay. These are some cases just go through the hrs and extra amount to be paid...
1. did 120hrs, 7hrs sim paid Aud43500- overflying charges Aud 145
2. did 98hrs, 4hrs sim paid Aud 43500- overflying charges Aud 230
3. did 175hrs, 15hrs sim paid Aud50,000 - overflying charges Aud 960
4. did 115hrs, 3hrs sim paid Aud 50,000- overflying charges Aud 320
just go through this is there any systematic in overflying charges and what they have did??
We never denied to pay extra, we just asked the account statement for what we hav paid, which they denied.
AA never charged extra for any student till feb 08. I know the students who passed out the school without paying anything extra except 1000 or 3000 for overflew charges. Later on students who ever passed they used to pay about 10,000 to 15,0000 to get their paper work.
80% of the students are Indians only. AA asks to pay 5000 every month wheather u fly or not. If u didnt pay, the booking are cancelled and threaten to cancell the visa. AA knows very well that we cannot do anything or dont hav guts. They are making money on this.
students per month
there are about 50 previous students who enrolled
june 07- 4
july 07- 15
aug 07- 9
sept 07- 12
oct 07- 16
nov 07- 10
jan 08 - 18
feb 08 - 20( only 1 is Indian)
april 08- 14
may 08- 11
aug 08- 2
later on no Indian batches only Aus are coming.
No. of students passed out from june 07 to jan-09 are abt only 20-30 studdents
AA fleet
10 c-152(all Indians are trained in this a/c only)
2 c-172rg
5 pipers
2 p-68 multi
1 duchess multi
Instructors at AA are good expect 3 or 4. There are abt 15 instructors.
Even instructors dont like the management of AA.
Its going to be very interesting indeed watching AA's counter claim when it comes to court. I think its going to be the only way this matter will settle because there has been no actual evidence by either side posted here.
Hence this will turn in a rather pointless circular argument rather rapidly, if it isn't already.
Hence this will turn in a rather pointless circular argument rather rapidly, if it isn't already.
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5000 is towards course fee only.
3500 is paid advance from India.
rest is paid in 8 monthly instalments each 5000
Now there is no court case going on AA. The case is striked off saying that its a wrong legal avenue.
This all can be proved from the enrollments each month and pass out students.
For accounts, the students can calculate from the price list.
Even there are students who left AA and did better in other flying schools.
3500 is paid advance from India.
rest is paid in 8 monthly instalments each 5000
Now there is no court case going on AA. The case is striked off saying that its a wrong legal avenue.
This all can be proved from the enrollments each month and pass out students.
For accounts, the students can calculate from the price list.
Even there are students who left AA and did better in other flying schools.
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I am one of the student from AA and in the court case as well.
AA asked us to pay extra course fee which we denied untill unless they hav shown the account statements for what we hav already paid.
Later on when we taken to court AA has send us notice from their lawyer that we hav to pay to AA which is given has overflown charges.
Even i dont understand by that because we didnt finish the full 200hrs( which i did 120hrs.)
AA asked us to pay extra course fee which we denied untill unless they hav shown the account statements for what we hav already paid.
Later on when we taken to court AA has send us notice from their lawyer that we hav to pay to AA which is given has overflown charges.
Even i dont understand by that because we didnt finish the full 200hrs( which i did 120hrs.)
The only thing I can connect "overfly" fees to is Enroute fees but that generally applies to IFR. Have you done much flying into towered aerodromes?
I agree that the instructors hate the management as well. having known a few of them who defected to other schools due to the horrid conditions.
I agree that the instructors hate the management as well. having known a few of them who defected to other schools due to the horrid conditions.
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eesurendra, you have every right to know what exactly you're being charged. A line by line account statement that matches the records in your log book is a start, you should demand it in no uncertain terms, best do it in writing. If you're refused, ask for reasons and get a lawyer. Don't try to sue yourself (that has gone wrong already, who advised you on that course of actions?! Steer clear of that person!), get professional advice. Use a reputable lawyer who knows their contract law (have a look at the Aviation Trader and Aviation Advertiser websites, aviation lawyers advertise there regularly) or if you can't afford that, get free legal advice, there are services in every capital city that are usually staffed by law students supervised by experienced lawyers, I have used such a service myself, they give you a good idea about your position and options, and are free, so you have nothing to lose, really.
You or your parents will have signed a contract. It should say in that how much each lesson is or how services and payments for those services are handled. Personally, I cannot believe you wouldn't know exactly how your education is financed, but that's another matter. Surely the school will have a charge sheet where they detail the cost of their lessons and other services?! Paying in installments is not uncommon assuming there is some sort of discount arrangement (I used to pay for helicopter lessons at a reputable school in 10 hour blocks and got a 10% discount which was hundreds of dollars every time), but of course you need to know how much you're paying for what!
The hours and charges you quote do sound excessive except maybe for the 50k for 174 hours, a C150 dual hour would be around $280 at YBAF, someone here can surely give you an idea about current local rates. Again, you need to ask yourself how you got this far and never found out what the market/competition was like.. that you're here and looking for advice and information is a first step, my advice would be to find out as much as you can about the market, the school, the contract, your rights, and take control of the situation. It'll teach you a lesson you'll never forget, and contract law is very similar pretty much everywhere in the developed/anglo-saxon world and you can never know enough about how contracts work as you'll have important contractual ties all your life (employment, mortgage, loans, etc...)
Get a statement, do the math, see if you're out by more than a few grand, get competent legal advice, then decide what to do. Go to another school and pay for a 'check flight' with a Grade 1 or 2 instructor and get a professional opinion on whether you're as competent as you should be for the hours you've flown..
You might also want to ask yourself if you loved the flying enough to finish your training and make it a career, or if you just want to book it under lessons learned and move on..
You or your parents will have signed a contract. It should say in that how much each lesson is or how services and payments for those services are handled. Personally, I cannot believe you wouldn't know exactly how your education is financed, but that's another matter. Surely the school will have a charge sheet where they detail the cost of their lessons and other services?! Paying in installments is not uncommon assuming there is some sort of discount arrangement (I used to pay for helicopter lessons at a reputable school in 10 hour blocks and got a 10% discount which was hundreds of dollars every time), but of course you need to know how much you're paying for what!
The hours and charges you quote do sound excessive except maybe for the 50k for 174 hours, a C150 dual hour would be around $280 at YBAF, someone here can surely give you an idea about current local rates. Again, you need to ask yourself how you got this far and never found out what the market/competition was like.. that you're here and looking for advice and information is a first step, my advice would be to find out as much as you can about the market, the school, the contract, your rights, and take control of the situation. It'll teach you a lesson you'll never forget, and contract law is very similar pretty much everywhere in the developed/anglo-saxon world and you can never know enough about how contracts work as you'll have important contractual ties all your life (employment, mortgage, loans, etc...)
Get a statement, do the math, see if you're out by more than a few grand, get competent legal advice, then decide what to do. Go to another school and pay for a 'check flight' with a Grade 1 or 2 instructor and get a professional opinion on whether you're as competent as you should be for the hours you've flown..
You might also want to ask yourself if you loved the flying enough to finish your training and make it a career, or if you just want to book it under lessons learned and move on..
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plankblender, thanks for your kind advice.
If someone says that the school is good evryone comes there without enquiring anything else. I came here in 07 aug, the school is good. I could progress well in first 4 months from then everything started. I could not go to another school with leaving all the money I paid here. From oct 08 we started complaining about AA, then in Jan09 she cancelled my visa saying that i am not performing well. I hav went to Immigration for my visa which they revoked. I am still continuing my course in other school. I came here for my licence thats it. I dont hav idea or any knowledge if the college bluffs. Here the main thing is money. I planned for my course finnance, and now after paying for course without the licence, where should i go? Now its a burden on me and my parents to pay the fee to finish of my licence which i am doing in other school.
This legal advice we got from cfi of some school who is also a 3yr law student. Even we met some other lawyers for the action what we hav taken, they said its fine and they said it will cost if we want them to fight.
We applied for pro-bano and they accepted it. They asked us to represent ourself till the hearing date and give information to them up to date. they said when hearing date comes they will fight. We agreed for it. Theres only one day time for hearing date which they said its very short time to prepare for the case. Now they are saying that they will appeal for the case. We are in taking with them.
We claculated the account statement from the price list of AA and AA is in debt to us. But AA is saying that we are in debt to them.
We complained to Vetab, education department, they said they will take serious action if they find problems with AA. But till date their is no response from them. Its been 9 months till now.
If someone says that the school is good evryone comes there without enquiring anything else. I came here in 07 aug, the school is good. I could progress well in first 4 months from then everything started. I could not go to another school with leaving all the money I paid here. From oct 08 we started complaining about AA, then in Jan09 she cancelled my visa saying that i am not performing well. I hav went to Immigration for my visa which they revoked. I am still continuing my course in other school. I came here for my licence thats it. I dont hav idea or any knowledge if the college bluffs. Here the main thing is money. I planned for my course finnance, and now after paying for course without the licence, where should i go? Now its a burden on me and my parents to pay the fee to finish of my licence which i am doing in other school.
This legal advice we got from cfi of some school who is also a 3yr law student. Even we met some other lawyers for the action what we hav taken, they said its fine and they said it will cost if we want them to fight.
We applied for pro-bano and they accepted it. They asked us to represent ourself till the hearing date and give information to them up to date. they said when hearing date comes they will fight. We agreed for it. Theres only one day time for hearing date which they said its very short time to prepare for the case. Now they are saying that they will appeal for the case. We are in taking with them.
We claculated the account statement from the price list of AA and AA is in debt to us. But AA is saying that we are in debt to them.
We complained to Vetab, education department, they said they will take serious action if they find problems with AA. But till date their is no response from them. Its been 9 months till now.
Call me intriqued.
You say AA told you that you were not progressing well. You say you were. Easy way to estabslish that fact.
How many dual hours did it take you to go 1st solo? T/A solo, GFPT and PPL?
edit: assuming you got as far as PPL or GFPT of course.
You say AA told you that you were not progressing well. You say you were. Easy way to estabslish that fact.
How many dual hours did it take you to go 1st solo? T/A solo, GFPT and PPL?
edit: assuming you got as far as PPL or GFPT of course.
das,
Not always an accurate indication of how good one's ability is. Ive known of another school where the students were made to fly more then necessary before being sent solo purely to get more $ out of them. Of course this is quite rare but can happen at an unscrupulous organisation.
Not always an accurate indication of how good one's ability is. Ive known of another school where the students were made to fly more then necessary before being sent solo purely to get more $ out of them. Of course this is quite rare but can happen at an unscrupulous organisation.
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So how many hours did you have when you stopped flying with AA?
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eesurendra check your pm.
It's probably not a fantastic idea to be discussing issues that are pending litigation.
It won't take a genius to figure out who you are, and to possibly use any information in your posts against you or your mates.
It's probably not a fantastic idea to be discussing issues that are pending litigation.
It won't take a genius to figure out who you are, and to possibly use any information in your posts against you or your mates.
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Pretty straight forward..
how many hours did you do? What was the hire rate?
How much did you pay?
Been through this with the other school run by a d.w. mind you that was fought over a cancellation fee and a nonconforming contract...
did you sign a contract regarding all this?
how many hours did you do? What was the hire rate?
How much did you pay?
Been through this with the other school run by a d.w. mind you that was fought over a cancellation fee and a nonconforming contract...
did you sign a contract regarding all this?