PPRuNe Forums - Four Corners ABC 27 Jul 09 and Aerospace Aviation

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)

- The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions-91/)

- - Four Corners ABC 27 Jul 09 and Aerospace Aviation (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/382520-four-corners-abc-27-jul-09-aerospace-aviation.html)

Four Corners ABC 27 Jul 09 and Aerospace Aviation

Watch four corners expose shonky colleges on monday at 8.30 EST on abc. Aerospace Aviation Bankstown will be in it.

For more information, Aerospace Aviation

ABC 4Corners

Very interesting, its so obvious its all true. Everyone hears these kind of stories emulating from flight schools which 'cater' for international students. All I can say is good luck to them and their law suit, as for the flying school who knows.....

Lets put aside the allegations that Aerospace has somehow ripped off these students (the programs allegations or ascertation ,not mine)
Lets also put aside the allegations that students were abused (thats putting it mildly if you believe the allegations put forward by the Australian student that refer to the Ops Manager!) in some way ,shape or form.
Lets ignore the allegations that instructors weren't properly qualified (re:Cert 4 in workplace training or an equivalent).
Why don't we politely ignore the allegations on this program and though other media outlets that there aren't enough aircraft to service the student base.
Not to forget the inference that students (up to 25 individuals at times according to old mate) were forced due to lack of adequate student facilities, to "sit under a tree with a few plastic chairs!"
What does that leave us?
I don't know really, but me thinks there's more to this story than Four Corners one sided mishmash of emotion.
Perhaps some of the company instructors would like to put forward their views here?

Cynical, If providing a course carries with it a minimum qualification for instructors then the company must provide suitably qualified staff. The Cert IV does seem to be a waste of time, however it is a very short course with many credits for instructors experience. If the company intended to handle large volumes of international or tertiary college students then it would have been a very simple matter to ensure all staff were qualified, it's not as if they had to complete a three year teaching degree.

If the company had an appropriate warning and discipline system for its students then there should be written evidence of this. When training any student the training records should have documented student progress and attitude, as well as non attendance, lack of interest and any warnings issued. The student should read, understand and sign all entries so when it does get ugly and disputes arise it is written in ink. Also if monies are involved from another party such as parents then copies of warnings should be forwarded to them ASAP.

If the company has been diligent in the above matters the court case will be very short.

A documented court brief was presented on the programe allegedly composed by aerospace accusing an Indian student of breaching CTA when his log book (which is stamped by Aerospace) clearly shows that he hadn't started his flying training on the date of the breach!!!! BODGY. If I was this guy, having my name slandered in a legal document, I would sue you know who!!!

And what made me wonder about the CTA breach was - so what?

If it happened to a student pilot flying solo then who sent him solo/GFPT/PPL not properly briefed? Sounds like a one-off (well a none-off given it seemingly wasn't him anyway) and these things happen often enough by accident (I've done it myself at Bankstown due to confusion in the circuit).

Fine, we all know that some foreign students (and plenty of locals too) have problems with dedication, ability and whatever but if someone pays for a 200 hour flying course and has somehow run out of credit with 100 hours (or whatever they quoted) in the logbook then they are being ripped off.

Get to 200 hours flying and don't meet the standard - well fine, that's your problem and not the schools.

UTR

With all that sitting around and waiting they where doing I wonder how many had all the exams completed? I bet they where under that tree chatting instead of having a textbook in there hand reading! :=

Indeed.... sitting under the tree discussing the greatest thing just come out of their country.........the movie "Slumdog Millionaire" :}

It's fascinating looking at the cycle of blame - student to school and vice versa. It is my suggestion that the whole system is rotten - it starts with agents in India making promises the school can't keep, the creation of an expectation that the mimimum hours is all that is required for a qualification, through to student and family pressure and finally through to the flying school.

No one party would be entirely to blame, they all contribute to the end result - dissatisfied students and their families feeling ripped off. The immediate touch point is the school providing the training, and there we are with a law suit.

In my view, the whole situation is more complex, and requires more than finger pointing and innuendo to fix. My first hand experience with AA is effectively nothing. Any comments I make are on the general situation, and are in no way a reflection of the school affected, just as I do not know the students and cannot comment on their relative dedication or situation. I comment as an outside observer, and the observation is that there is more than one failure at one point in the system, yet only one point is being pursued depending on which side of the fence you are on (schoolo vs student).

For those who missed it last night on ABC, you can watch it online here;

Four Corners - 27/07/2009: Holy Cash Cows

-- Holy Cash Cows goes to air at 8.30pm 27th July on ABC 1. It is repeated at 11.35pm 28th July

11pm Darwin time.

Was very interesting to see whilst driving past AA this arvo, the gates locked & a security guard on patrol :uhoh:

Whilst having nothing really to do with this whole mess, I feel argumentative and GADRIVR isnt around for me to bicker with :ok:

Quote:

SM227 way to slander them all much like a lot of people seem to do. Sure anyone would agree that with any large group of students you are going to get a 'few' that are going to slack off and have no interest in completing the training the alarm bells should be ringing when such large numbers of students are making the same accusations of what this school is doing.
So your point is that in a large group of people, you expect to get a small group who slack off and have no interest in training and will probably complain.... whiiiccchhh should then signal alarm bells to the training organization... because.... the expected just happened? Sorry what?

I don't know the numbers but I'm fairly sure being the second biggest school at bankstown that they probably put through quite a few students. Does anyone know the facts? Do we have any hard numbers on those that graduated vs those that took 3 years to go nowhere? I doubt you have the facts either, which would make your viewpoint 100% useless speculation. Thanks for your opinion

Do all Indian students move halfway around the world - generally remortage their family home to come over here to go home with no qualification?
At my school? Generally? Nope. But. Do a handful from every course come out here because Mommy wanted them to be a pilot? Do that handful then treat aviation like an annoying chore to be attended soley so that the money keeps flowing from home so they can get on the piss and muck up? Do they then complain after 2 years when mommy says time to come home and they haven't even gotten a GFPT because promises or not?

I bet they do mate.

Lets face it many of these schools get far larger numbers of students than they can cater for, take their money and hope for the best that they can get them through. Can you start to blame them if they sit at the airport for 10 days and don't fly that on the 11th they don't bother - then the school says well you weren't here yesterday you could of flown your not dedicated. Sadly it's not just this school Lets just stop you there. By saying 'its not just this school, you're saying thats exactly what they're doing! Mate how the hell should you know? Do you work there? Are you a student there? Or do you know a guy who knows a guy who robbed a guy who went there once?

I reckon you don't have the first clue. Watching that 4 corners garbage just reminded me of years of India dropkicks not showing up, not putting in any effort and then telling any bull**** story they could think of when Mommy called and said whats the story. Honesty isn't exactly #1 cultural priority back home mate, and if you know anything about the topic, you'd know thats 100% on the ball.

What do you think these students are going to do? 'Yeh mom, thanks for the 70 grand. I actually spent most of it on the piss. Yeh, no pilots license for me, after 2 years I never even managed to learn the line up checks. My bad! Had a great time though. Rolled 2 seperate cars! Awesome.'

and so many others the 'timeframes' quoted blow out to months and months over it and you are tied into staying because the schools have these pay upfront policies.
Which at my school is plainly worded in the contract. If you can't read a contract, don't whinge to me

If the allegations of the instructors not having Cert IVs are true - well despite everyones comments that the qualification is useless - it's a requirement under these programs that the instructors do have this qualification - no different to having an instructor rating. They elect to run the school and abide by this.
This proves you have not the faintest. Comparing a Cert IV to an instructor rating is RIDICULOUS. Legal requirement? Yes. Makes a difference to the quality of instructing you could give? No. I remember my Cert IV course. About as useful as a boat anchor on a hang glider.

Reality is the lack of professionalism in aviation starts right at the bottom and it doesn't improve the higher you go - most of these 'sausage factories' are nothing but money making enterprises that have no concern for the students or the quality of the education they provide to them - and the reality of the four corners program is pretty true - frankly no one gives a crap.
I put to you that professionalism starts with speaking when you know the facts. You obviously don't know any, but most likely have something against the company in question and hence want to believe the 4 corners story, so you'll trudge out a bunch of the above tripe and try to sell it as the truth.

The country is littered with hundreds of people that have been ripped off financially by bad flying schools both foreign and domestic students - yet most are too scared to speak up too much for fear as being labeled as a troublemaker in this small industry.

As for the ABC making 'us' look like racist bogans - sadly a percentage of the population does a pretty darn good job at that already.
Racist? Are you kidding? Have you ever even heard of the Caste system back in India?

Caste system in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a further aside, I enjoyed one of those being interviewed in that clip crying about racism. This wouldn't be the same bloke who beat the living crap out of a defenseless Aboriginal in Byron and proclaimed 'dont tell me about my country!'. Nah, doubt it.

ha!

I agree with Crescent. I'd say everyones at fault and everyone has room for improvement. I'd like to see students tested and selectively picked before commencing so that we don't get people who aren't motivated. I'd also like to see schools that are non compliant to get addressed.

Someone posted in a thread before about a scheme in NZ where you are awarded a certain number of fee help or whatever you call it places based on the number of successful graduates you had the year previous. That places strong motivation on the school to go out and find students who will work hard and then work hard themselves to deliver quality training and get them through.

Win win in my books.

AA shouldnt have taken on so many students and should have ensured that the instructors have all the qualifications. Now we will loose the International students to NZ / US etc. My messege to international students is to get out of the sausage factories and fly with an aero club. It might be more expensive but you will get the qualification in time.

I did notice you picked and chose what you wanted to respond to there das which is fair enough, but in GADRIVR's absense i'm more than happy to take his place for the bickering :)

No mention was made of the school making what were proven to be completely crap allegations about the students making violations of controlled airspace? Unfortunate error that one I believe.

Next of all my comparison with the Cert IV and instructor rating was nothing more than an example that despite the fact the Cert IV IS a useless qualification is is a REQUIREMENT that the instructors have it to teach the students. Breaching that is exactly that - a breach of the conditions of which the school is operating. The fact of the usefulness of the Cert IV is a completely different arguement. A school I was flying with had the same requirement and always ensured that the relevent students on these courses were only flown with the people with the qualification.(until all of them obtained it)

I completely agree that 'SOME' of the students are probably lazy bastards and partly to blame but at the numbers mentioned in this report? - if its such a widespread problem why was it only this one school that was mentioned? They are not the only one training large numbers of Indians? I think your putting your head in the sand and singing to the pixies if you think there is not a lot of rot at how 'some' flying schools operate.

I personally have never flown or operated out of BK and have personal axe to grind with the organisation in question.

I think some would agree under the context of the story - that error about the violation of controlled airspace did not come over very well !

End of the line is if AA is operating fairly and correctly the system will work and they have nothing to be concerned about...will they?

I will agree and say I think that either way - for students and the operators involved some reform is needed because I think whoever is in the right or the wrong in this situation - it shows more work is needed - for both the students involved and the organisations protection. Oils ain't Oils when it comes to all flying schools - and it's unfortunate for the better quality schools that their overall reputations can be tarnished with the poorer quality ones.

No need to get personal das - just some friendly debate eh :)

None of the complaints raised on Four Corners seemed unreasonable to me. The claims of only flying 40 odd hours in 16 months are incredible. If the students weren't cutting the mustard in terms of standards, there are processes in place to send them home just the same way a university would send home any student who wasn't performing in exams on repeated occasions.

As for the unqualified instructors, I think perhaps the reporter made it sound worse than it is, but nevertheless the Cert IV is a requirement with just as much weight as the instructor rating when you're bringing in students in under the VETAB/AQTF system.

Having said that, I reckon Four Corners could probably do a whole other program on the bureaucratic fund raising bull**** that surrounds the vocational education sector in Australia.

Indeed puff, good reply! :)

Quote:

I did notice you picked and chose what you wanted to respond to there das which is fair enough, but in GADRIVR's absense i'm more than happy to take his place for the bickering http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif
Sounds good

No mention was made of the school making what were proven to be completely crap allegations about the students making violations of controlled airspace? Unfortunate error that one I believe.
Yeh that was a fairly poor move. I'm sure someone got fired over that one

Next of all my comparison with the Cert IV and instructor rating was nothing more than an example that despite the fact the Cert IV IS a useless qualification is is a REQUIREMENT that the instructors have it to teach the students. Breaching that is exactly that - a breach of the conditions of which the school is operating. The fact of the usefulness of the Cert IV is a completely different arguement. A school I was flying with had the same requirement and always ensured that the relevent students on these courses were only flown with the people with the qualification.(until all of them obtained it)
I acknowledged that in the last post. Required, yes. I believed the program inferred however that the instructors themselves simply weren't qualified. Now, the size of some of their circuits aside (:}) I think thats a little unfair. But yes, they all need one fair enough

I completely agree that 'SOME' of the students are probably lazy bastards and partly to blame but at the numbers mentioned in this report? - if its such a widespread problem why was it only this one school that was mentioned? They are not the only one training large numbers of Indians? I think your putting your head in the sand and singing to the pixies if you think there is not a lot of rot at how 'some' flying schools operate.
I put it to you that they could have done this with almost any school. Across YSBK I see this problem happening at almost all the internationally catering schools. There are disgruntled students at every organization no matter how good and as I said, none of us know the facts about what percentage of students this is. It may be large, but it may also be fairly tiny. You're talking about a number in relation to the entire course throughput over a 3 year period.

Its your own argument that the school must put through a ridiculous number of students per year, far in excess of what it can handle, so that number must be pretty big. There are 9 listed members on the court case (that got thrown out). 9 vs how many over 3 years?

As for why this school, well its news isnt it. Indian punchons in Melbourne, it becomes a story. You believe this is the first time a group of Indians have left disgruntled from any flying school in the country? Doubt it. Was it news worthy back then? No. Is it now? Yes.

I personally have never flown or operated out of BK and have personal axe to grind with the organisation in question.
Ill take that as code for 'yes, I, like the legenday das, admit, I know 0 of the facts

I think some would agree under the context of the story - that error about the violation of controlled airspace did not come over very well !
Agreed. Though I think its a bit of a beat up. Its fairly easy to check that in court when it comes to it so I doubt its a malicious attempt.

End of the line is if AA is operating fairly and correctly the system will work and they have nothing to be concerned about...will they?
Well, apart from having their name now dragged through the mud, and everyone who ever had an axe to grind with the organization coming out of the woodwork to add their 2 cents (where is BKFI anyway?), yeh, why be concerned! The facts matter not to the media who are selling airtime. Dewa are on their side, the Supreme court is on their side. But who cares.

I will agree and say I think that either way - for students and the operators involved some reform is needed because I think whoever is in the right or the wrong in this situation - it shows more work is needed - for both the students involved and the organisations protection. Oils ain't Oils when it comes to all flying schools - and it's unfortunate for the better quality schools that their overall reputations can be tarnished with the poorer quality ones.

No need to get personal das - just some friendly debate eh http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif

So again, I fall into the trap of defending either other instructors or schools at YSBK. Heh, but at least its a fun argument. What I resent is that nobody is questioning the students actions. Nobody is actually asking what really happened. Has anyone looked at the numbers? Not a single person making comment actually has any evidence, proof or hard numbers (myself included).

Just 'yeh, thats probably right!' and plays it off as fact.

My position remains unchanged. I've seen this behaviour for years, I've seen the dishonesty. I hope they get bankrupted and have to row a boat home.

aannndddd thats my 2c :}

I am a flight instructor in bankstown and I am also conducting academic research on overseas students attending flight training in oz. It would be great to chat to some instructors or educators about their experience and contribute to this study.

anyone interested please let me know

cheers
joe
[email protected]

unqualified instructors

i would be very appreciative if someone could direct me to the legislative requirements for the Cert IV in workplace training requirements. although i do have the qualification, my understanding is that it only applied to Registered Training Organisations ( not all flying schools ), cheers.