c152 missing between Hamilton and New Plymouth NZ POB1

[Hughesy]

"To be fair he wasn't a 'fresh CPL'. Still the choice to go in those conditions will no doubt be a focus of the accident report."

Kiwichick: Cheers for PM

Massey058: Anyone who has a just got his CPL and then about to sit their Instructors still makes anyone (fixed or rotary) a pretty green pilot.
I am sorry for your loss, the longer your in this game......the more mates you may see go. I have been to several funerals ranging from super low time to very experienced.

For everyone here, especially newbies, guys/gals getting upto 500-700 hrs and everyone else. Perhaps having the occasional gander at the CAA Fatal Accident reports is a good idea. They are actually a good learning tool and you may learn somthing that could help you avoid an accident later on.

Cheers

Hughesy

[Big Kahuna]

I am sure this was an un-authorised night VFR flight. I very much doubt that the CFI at NP Aero Club would have given the ok for this flight given the weather conditions.

Just because the law does not restrict the distance between lighted aerodromes anymore does not make it a good idea to fly long distance cross country at night VFR.

Night cross country flight should be flown at or above the relevant MSA.

Solid ground can be very unforgiving.

[Massey058]

Fair call Hughesy.

I have flown a few hundred hours in one of the most dangerous flying environments in the world where death is a far too regular occurrence. Death here is not taken nearly seriously enough.

Reading accident reports is just good airmanship, something I hope is instilled in all pilots from the beginning of training.

[Water Wings]

Night cross country flight should be flown at or above the relevant MSA.

Absolutely agree. Places I have worked have always had this rule. If you couldn't go VFR above the applicable area MSA then you didn't go at all.

[riseagainst]

Condolences to Ben's family.
Can't work out why he choose to fly in those weather conditions between Northshore and Np, 40minutes from raglan to tairoa pt.
Rip Ben

[conflict alert]

Can't work out why he choose to fly in those weather conditions between Northshore and Np, 40minutes from raglan to tairoa pt

but the media from the onset said he was "an experienced pilot", surely that is why the decision was made to fly in such conditions.

shudder the thought if it was someone who went through one of these sausage schools who won't let their pilots fly in vis less than 20km and cloud base below 3000ft thereby teaching them NO experience except they have a commercial licence at the end of it, therefore must be experienced, because their licence says so!!! For f##ks sake.

[ZK-NSN]

Conflict - As most people within the aviation industry are aware, the media dont know ass from elbow.

shudder the thought if it was someone who went through one of these sausage schools who won't let their pilots fly in vis less than 20km and cloud base below 3000ft thereby teaching them NO experience except they have a commercial licence at the end of it, therefore must be experienced, because their licence says so!!!

Im a little confused as to what your trying to say here mate. So a pilot from a sausage factory wouldnt have made it as far as this unfortunate chap did before he / she crashed too?
To an extent, especially with CPL's, experience cant be taught, its gained once your out in the big bad world. A CPL is after-all a licence to learn.
This may sound harsh to those who knew him and premature before a full investigation is completed but it looks as though decision making before he even left the ground is where the wheels came off in this situation. Im not saying he was a bad pilot, but he may have just made some bad decisions in the heat of the moment, someting I have done many times in my GA career but was lucky enough to get away with.
My only hope is that any appropriate lessons are learnt, so that the same thing doesnt happen again.

[remoak]

My only hope is that any appropriate lessons are learnt, so that the same thing doesnt happen again.

That's a pretty forlorn hope, as these types of accidents happen with depressing regularity.

It is really very simple - if you are going to fly VFR at night (or during the day for that matter), be very sure about the weather and your ability to navigate effectively with the tools that you have, if there is ANY doubt, DON'T DO IT. If you MUST do it, stay above MSA until you have positively identified your destination. If you get lost, CALL SOMEONE.

If the flight was approved, then the CFI or whoever approved it should answer some stern questions. If not, well, unless there was a major mechanical failure, it's yet another case of ego/over-confidence/stupidity.

I know that is harsh, and I'm sure the pilot was a nice guy, but until we start calling these accidents what they are, safety will forever be compromised.

[Three Blader]

no a 13000 hr fosil

[riseagainst]

Not approved

[ZK-NSN]

Remoak - sad but true.

[donkey123]

[QUOTE]
but the media from the onset said he was "an experienced pilot", surely that is why the decision was made to fly in such conditions.


This is an interesting statement conflict. Like ZK- NSN, I am not too sure where you are coming from with this one.

Maybe the "sausage factories" are doing something right if one of thier own pilots was presented with that same situation and decided to stay on the ground that night because, like you said it wasn't 3000ft 20kms +???

Something about using your superior knowledge and judgement to not have to use your superior skill.

Remoak - couldn't agree more

There were jets and turboprops diverting everywhere around weather in the vc of pokom that night.

[Water Wings]

I have been told this fellows training up to CPL was done at another training establishment. He moved to NP to do his 'C' Cat.

[conflict alert]

This is an interesting statement conflict

I was being sacarastic. The idea that someone would make a decision to fly a single engine aircraft, at night, VFR, on a x/country into forcast ****e stuns me and can only assume the decision to fly was because he was, as the media lablelled him, "experienced". Hence my sacarasm. My point (perhapes badly written) was that an experienced pilot would in my view have spent the night on the ground. My point about the sausage factories is that because of the self imposed school minima's it is likely that students with their instructors are not flown into adverse conditions and therefore are not shown any techniques in the live enviroment so that when a student PPL or CPL unwittingly gets themselves in trouble at least they have a fighting chance using some of the options available. I think half the trouble is that there are very few career instructors left. Most instructors are hour builders who have been taught by hour builders who have been taught by hour builders and so on. As we all know I could quite easily go from no hours to a CCat in 1 year or less and be teaching with only a few hundred hours under my belt. Where's the experience in that?

[HardCorePawn]

It would appear that his CPL/MEIR was indeed completed elsewhere...

[The Pilot] completed his commercial pilot's licence and multi-engine instrument rating at Massey University's school of aviation earlier this year and was well known to many staff and students according to its general manager.

[remoak]

Conflict Alert

Absolutely right, it is usually the blind leading the blind when it comes to instructors these days. There are a few older, wiser heads around but not nearly enough of them. It is one of my pet gripes that when those of us that have many years experience, including airline-level check and training, seek to get back into some instructing, we are greeted with a bureaucratic nightmare that not only costs a fortune and takes a long time, but is completely unnecessary. And this at a time when the CAA admit that the experience pool in the instructor population is way too shallow. How about making it a bit easier for us to give something back into the system?

If you went to one of the sausage factories, it is perfectly possible, even likely, to be instructing other CPL hopefuls when you have never actually seen any bad weather up close and personal. That is just crazy.

I'm glad my own training was different - we used to head out to the LFA when the wx was down to 1000'/3km. Only way you ever really learn just what bad wx looks like.

[AutopilotEngage]

Rest In Peace

[Hughesy]

remoak

I fully agree with you on weather. It is much better to go out in a "controlled environment" and get used to bad weather rather then have no idea of what to do when you find yourself in the murk.

[NoseGear]

I agree with remoak....so Ill be off to whack my head against a wall shortly however, he is quite right with regards to the weather training, or lack thereof....in any event, DAY time bad weather avoidance is one thing, NIGHT time weather avoidance is at best total guesswork, and I can't fathom the decision making process that lead this CPL taking off at night, in a C152, over rough terrain into bad TS, rain and deteriorating wx condx. I cant imagine any school, regardless of minimums for bad wx training and reputations, not mentioning the above would be a pretty poor idea. Lets face it, this was nothing more than extremely poor decision making.

As for CAA being a hindrance remoak....surely you jest!!

Nosey

[conflict alert]

Remoak

I'm glad my own training was different - we used to head out to the LFA when the wx was down to 1000'/3km. Only way you ever really learn just what bad wx looks like.

I rest my case...you have endorsed what I am trying to say and I hope there are others out there that realise what we are saying.

and Hughesy