Engine quit late downwind at Bankstown 6/6/09
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Remoak is a stirrer. Leave him alone.
My 2c worth -
Better that the pilot potentially crash and burn on the airfield at Bankstown (or surrounding open space) than into someone's house in Condell Park.
The areas north and east of bankstown a/p are quite hilly and developed. No chances there.
My 2c worth -
Better that the pilot potentially crash and burn on the airfield at Bankstown (or surrounding open space) than into someone's house in Condell Park.
The areas north and east of bankstown a/p are quite hilly and developed. No chances there.
Just revising for my CPL aerodynamics exam on Thursday, so this is applied theory at its best
Honestly, I'm not trying to put you down or anything, but there's clearly a deficiency in your training somewhere, and it'll bit you in the @ss sooner or later if you don't address it!
If you bank an aeroplane that steeply without power so close to the ground, you're tempting fate.
Unnecessarily too, because without that last bank (starting 1:21), he would have been over more or less level ground and could have washed off any remaining energy in a flare and landed the thing in control.
..and to some of the others here -- you know who you are -- if people are supposed to learn from this (and it's clear from the responses there's a need for it!), stop w@nking on about how to best analyse an incident and actually start doing it
It might look like a dramatic display of a forced landing and hell I would not want to be in the same situation myself, but sometimes you must play the hand you've been dealt and make the best of a bad situation.
GG
Last edited by The Green Goblin; 23rd Jun 2009 at 03:29.
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One of the easiest things in the world is an unqualified opinion on an aviation incident after the fact.
We can all learn from every incident, often as not the gritty bits are difficult to deal with because the incident claims victims and we all have emotion to cope with on top of the lessons that arise.
In this case we are at least not faced with ruling out difficult emotion, everyone involved is still with us.
The PIC was faced with a classic dilemma, where do I go???, and a very small time frame in which to perform the analysis.
So did he make errors of judgement ?? in fine detail analysis no doubt he did, in the big picture where everyone walked away from the incident No he didn't, and no one on the ground was involved.
There are real positive lessons in this, probably the most profound is the PIC has walked up to look disaster in the face and come away with a good result, he will carry that lesson for all his aviation career and be better for it.
We can all learn from every incident, often as not the gritty bits are difficult to deal with because the incident claims victims and we all have emotion to cope with on top of the lessons that arise.
In this case we are at least not faced with ruling out difficult emotion, everyone involved is still with us.
The PIC was faced with a classic dilemma, where do I go???, and a very small time frame in which to perform the analysis.
So did he make errors of judgement ?? in fine detail analysis no doubt he did, in the big picture where everyone walked away from the incident No he didn't, and no one on the ground was involved.
There are real positive lessons in this, probably the most profound is the PIC has walked up to look disaster in the face and come away with a good result, he will carry that lesson for all his aviation career and be better for it.
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Hey Goblin, you know nothing about me, so keep the accusations down 
I might 'only' hold a PPL but happen to have a multiple of the aeronautical experience necessary for CPL issue, not everyone needs or aspires for the next license with minimum hours
desmotronic purpotes to be an ATPL in his profile and if he can't tell a stall when it hits him in the face he does indeed require some training, give me an ATO that disagrees with that and I'll think about it again, otherwise crawl back to wherever you came from
! Proficiency in recognising a stall is prerequisite for issue of a PPL, so I think I'm in the green saying there's a deficiency in his training!!! Let me make it more precise for you, there's a deficiency in his basic training!!
There there, and here I was under the impression that learning as a pilot never stopped? Where would you in your apparent infinite wisdom put the 'end' of the training of a pilot? ATPL? ATPL with 10,000 hours of experience? ATPL and competitive aerobatics champion? 
Look at the video properly before you shoot your mouth off again, when he increased the bank he had level ground ahead of him, he was trying to turn for some strange reason, a hugely dangerous thing to do!
I might 'only' hold a PPL but happen to have a multiple of the aeronautical experience necessary for CPL issue, not everyone needs or aspires for the next license with minimum hours desmotronic purpotes to be an ATPL in his profile and if he can't tell a stall when it hits him in the face he does indeed require some training, give me an ATO that disagrees with that and I'll think about it again, otherwise crawl back to wherever you came from
! Proficiency in recognising a stall is prerequisite for issue of a PPL, so I think I'm in the green saying there's a deficiency in his training!!! Let me make it more precise for you, there's a deficiency in his basic training!!
How can you point out deficiencies in another pilots training when you are yet to finish your own?
Yep would have been nice to land the thing under control straight into a fence.........
PB,
settle petal.
Fact is hes not even 15 ft off the ground when he enters the frame at 1.20, touch down is 1.23, sure it stalls in the flare at about 2 feet. If he'd got some flap out it would have been a greaser.
good luck with the cpl and thanks for yr expert opinion.
settle petal.
Fact is hes not even 15 ft off the ground when he enters the frame at 1.20, touch down is 1.23, sure it stalls in the flare at about 2 feet. If he'd got some flap out it would have been a greaser.
good luck with the cpl and thanks for yr expert opinion.
Hey Goblin, you know nothing about me, so keep the accusations down I might 'only' hold a PPL but happen to have a multiple of the aeronautical experience necessary for CPL issue
Look at the video properly before you shoot your mouth off again, when he increased the bank he had level ground ahead of him, he was trying to turn for some strange reason, a hugely dangerous thing to do!
If this was a stall it would have impacted the ground in a pitch down attitude and been a far worse outcome for the pilot involved.
Also another thing/factor to think about is the pilot neglecting to use flaps, resulting in a higher nose attitude for the approach vis able to us short final. Then when the pilot has gone for the touch down he has looked for the attitude he is used to with flap resulting in a 3 pointer.
desmotronic purpotes to be an ATPL in his profile and if he can't tell a stall when it hits him in the face he does indeed require some training, give me an ATO that disagrees with that and I'll think about it again, otherwise crawl back to wherever you came from
(based on a 152)
Let me make it more precise for you, there's a deficiency in his basic training!!
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desmotronic, you really don't know your stalls:
The stall is fully developed by the time the wing starts to drop (early parts of 1:22), at which time he's more than a wing span away from the ground, a helluva lot more than 2 feet!!
The aircraft would have begun to stall as soon as he put it into the, again, very dangerous low steep bank (1:21), and the stall horn -- which in the Warrior is on the left wing which happens to be the high wing here in the right hand turn, with the greater AoA and therefore closer to the stall -- would have been blaring for several seconds before the wing drop.
Said stall warning should be an immediate cue in the absence of power to counteract the impending stall. The pilot in this case obviously didn't heed that warning or tried and failed to be effective again sluggish controls so close to the stall. It actually seems the aircraft pretty much lands itself because the timing of the stall, roll, and nose drop just happen to fit the height over the ground when it all happens
so kudos to the Piper engineers for designing such a resilient and docile airframe! 
Also, where do you see a flare? He banks, it stalls/rolls/drops, he's on the ground. No flare whatsoever.
Admittedly, the pilot didn't have a whole lot of time to play with here, but this discussion surely shows that the dissection of a mishap can teach a lot of things, including aerodynamical basics and what to do (and what not to do) if you find yourselves in a pickle!
Again, as an ATPL with (potential) responsibility for the travelling public, I urge you to revisit some of the basics! I just hope you never have to try to remember how to recognise a stall or incipient spin or the relevant recovery in a hurry, it might end in
I'll settle when you tell me you won't take unsuspecting passengers or try to teach others to fly until you know your basics
sure it stalls in the flare at about 2 feet.
The aircraft would have begun to stall as soon as he put it into the, again, very dangerous low steep bank (1:21), and the stall horn -- which in the Warrior is on the left wing which happens to be the high wing here in the right hand turn, with the greater AoA and therefore closer to the stall -- would have been blaring for several seconds before the wing drop.
Said stall warning should be an immediate cue in the absence of power to counteract the impending stall. The pilot in this case obviously didn't heed that warning or tried and failed to be effective again sluggish controls so close to the stall. It actually seems the aircraft pretty much lands itself because the timing of the stall, roll, and nose drop just happen to fit the height over the ground when it all happens
so kudos to the Piper engineers for designing such a resilient and docile airframe! Also, where do you see a flare? He banks, it stalls/rolls/drops, he's on the ground. No flare whatsoever.
Admittedly, the pilot didn't have a whole lot of time to play with here, but this discussion surely shows that the dissection of a mishap can teach a lot of things, including aerodynamical basics and what to do (and what not to do) if you find yourselves in a pickle!
Again, as an ATPL with (potential) responsibility for the travelling public, I urge you to revisit some of the basics! I just hope you never have to try to remember how to recognise a stall or incipient spin or the relevant recovery in a hurry, it might end in
I'll settle when you tell me you won't take unsuspecting passengers or try to teach others to fly until you know your basics
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Yet you still don't have one
. Not sure what you're insinuating, but I won't be drawn into a d!ck measuring contest
A typical Gen Y tantrum
what a stall looks like, just not here and I tend to agree.
Where do you differ from my explanation of the stall and ensuing 'landing'?
If this was a stall it would have impacted the ground in a pitch down attitude
And the nose doing down before he touches the ground isn't pitch down enough for you?
18 degrees is not the angle I taught for a stalling angle either but rather exceeding 15 (based on a 152)
Good point on why the turn when entering the field of view might have been steeper than possibly planned, a potential explanation and something we all can learn from!
Speaking of which how about you get back to yours
Last edited by PlankBlender; 23rd Jun 2009 at 05:55.
Again, as an ATPL with (potential) responsibility for the travelling public, I urge you to revisit some of the basics! I just hope you never have to try to remember how to recognise a stall or incipient spin or the relevant recovery in a hurry, it might end in
I'll settle when you tell me you won't take unsuspecting passengers or try to teach others to fly until you know your basics
I'll settle when you tell me you won't take unsuspecting passengers or try to teach others to fly until you know your basics
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yup, I sometimes have that effect on people when I want to know stuff and figure out whether I'm right or wrong.. just disappointing that a lot of people rather tune out than have a lively discussion.. a feature of Gen Y I hear, also affects some ageing Baby Boomers
Back to your flock of sheep mate
We were all having a heated, yet civilised debate about the video until you came along.
You have added nothing to this discussion whatsoever, other than your childish bickering.
Look you people....it's painfully simple.
Lose the donk in a single, put the fecker down as soon as possible in the LEAST worst place.
He chose the LEAST WORST PLACE, he put it down and he flew it all the way into the "crash".
Just land, don't bull****!
To borrow a BN CEN ATCO's phrase "NCD. Good outcome."
Lose the donk in a single, put the fecker down as soon as possible in the LEAST worst place.
He chose the LEAST WORST PLACE, he put it down and he flew it all the way into the "crash".
Just land, don't bull****!
To borrow a BN CEN ATCO's phrase "NCD. Good outcome."
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plankbender - your comments in the analysis of the video have been most useful - thanks. It would have been a sad reflection on aviation in this country if the forced landing had gone uncritiqued.
plankbender - your comments in the analysis of the video have been most useful - thanks. It would have been a sad reflection on aviation in this country if the forced landing had gone uncritiqued.
Being critiqued is something a flying instructor does with a student after a lesson along with positive comments on what the student is doing well. It is not something a Student Commercial Pilot does to another aviator who has successfully conducted a forced landing for real, and lived to tell the tale.
Congratulations Mr Cherokee!
Hey, a big thumbs up for the pilot who lived through this event, saving all on board. Please note that the following is NOT a criticism of your flying. I'm very happy for you.
Hopefully this amplifies a need for pilots to practise more PFL's. And after flying with a civilian pilot recently I was shocked by his lack of training and currency in stalls, steep turns, recovery from the resulting Unusual Attitudes, PFL's and the like, and my offer to get him up to speed was gratefully accepted. And I'm not criticising him, but the system in general that accepts this. During the resulting flights, he constantly advised me that he had 'never seen' this or that, only did 'one of those' about two years earlier, and wasn't sure if 'this' was even allowed. He even clarified with the CFI before we went flying, who confirmed that there was no reason we should even attempt stalling during a gliding turn. I mean, crikey - THAT's when it's most likely to bite ya! Consequently, said pilot's skills improved drastically in only a few short hours, with some new skills to boot.
If you suspect that you are also skills deficit, then please go out, find an instructor with some hands and feet skills, and brush up on these aspects. It might not only save your bacon, but also your pax's, and those on the ground underneath your flight path...
Hopefully this amplifies a need for pilots to practise more PFL's. And after flying with a civilian pilot recently I was shocked by his lack of training and currency in stalls, steep turns, recovery from the resulting Unusual Attitudes, PFL's and the like, and my offer to get him up to speed was gratefully accepted. And I'm not criticising him, but the system in general that accepts this. During the resulting flights, he constantly advised me that he had 'never seen' this or that, only did 'one of those' about two years earlier, and wasn't sure if 'this' was even allowed. He even clarified with the CFI before we went flying, who confirmed that there was no reason we should even attempt stalling during a gliding turn. I mean, crikey - THAT's when it's most likely to bite ya! Consequently, said pilot's skills improved drastically in only a few short hours, with some new skills to boot.
If you suspect that you are also skills deficit, then please go out, find an instructor with some hands and feet skills, and brush up on these aspects. It might not only save your bacon, but also your pax's, and those on the ground underneath your flight path...
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Well, Martin, thanks for your positive post, it's always a pleasure to see balanced analysis and wisdom from senior members of the industry -- surely they're lining up to call your good self their mentor! 
Anyway, I won't be drawn into a seniority p!ssing match, I've proved in my first career and certainly don't need to justify to you that I can hold my own when it comes to analysis of facts and theories, so I'll just keep stating my opinion as is my want here and exchanging with people who actually have something to contribute to the discussion more than a pathetic attempt to pull rank
One thing you might consider in your world of hours and bigger better kero burning toys is that not everyone is in this game to progress as fast as possible to the business end of a widebody to be stuck in jet leg land for the next thirty years, there are those of us who have travelled the world in a former life and are very content with flying hands-on, not always over the weather, and within a few time zones so we can enjoy life and our later years without bodies shot from abuse......
GG, I can assure you I only maintain one user name here.
Anyway, I won't be drawn into a seniority p!ssing match, I've proved in my first career and certainly don't need to justify to you that I can hold my own when it comes to analysis of facts and theories, so I'll just keep stating my opinion as is my want here and exchanging with people who actually have something to contribute to the discussion more than a pathetic attempt to pull rank
One thing you might consider in your world of hours and bigger better kero burning toys is that not everyone is in this game to progress as fast as possible to the business end of a widebody to be stuck in jet leg land for the next thirty years, there are those of us who have travelled the world in a former life and are very content with flying hands-on, not always over the weather, and within a few time zones so we can enjoy life and our later years without bodies shot from abuse......
GG, I can assure you I only maintain one user name here.