Log Book Forgery
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Yeah, we've learnt our lesson haha. But in regards to my question, even though technically only one pilot was required for the operation, considering equal work load was shared eg one guy took off flew first few hours then other pilot flew and landed, would one of us be able to log that as Co-Pilot time?
Also, is it legal to have whiteout on our logbooks?
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Also, is it legal to have whiteout on our logbooks?
Cool story Hansel!
FRQ CB
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An airline in Asia has the crew record instrument time (actual) for all of their IFR flights (which is every flight they do) except for about 10 minutes to allow for ground time. Every member of the crew logs this time, even the off-duty crew. So if the airplane was to fly Korea-JFK for 15 hours with a heavy crew of four pilots, there would be a total of 60 hours recorded, even if the airplane did not come close to a cloud the entire way. The crews would all get p1ssed at me when I would strike that out of the master airplane log and write in the actual instrument time (often zero). They still do it of course.
An electronic logbook is hard to start, since you often have a lot of flights to record but once up and running you don't have to worry about the totals. And finding out how many hours, landings or flights you have made on a multi engine amphibious biplane is as simple as clicking a button.
In the US you can be prosecuted even as a passenger after an accident or incident, if you are in the front seat and so much as touch the controls. Even if when you touched them was a couple of hours before the incident.
Also in the US I see students who do not yet have a licence logging PIC time when they are dual (they log both).
The logging of flight time is regulated in most countries but not in the US. It is not necessary to have a log book, any method of record-keeping is acceptable and you don't have to record any time except that needed to meet a requirement. They mainly go by what you put on your medical each 6 month/year/5 yr. And of course that is just a guess!
So if you are competing for a job at Emirates/Korean with a chap from the US, forgetaboutit. He will always trump your numbers.
(I hold US and Aus licences and have used them, as well as others, so I know the drill).
An electronic logbook is hard to start, since you often have a lot of flights to record but once up and running you don't have to worry about the totals. And finding out how many hours, landings or flights you have made on a multi engine amphibious biplane is as simple as clicking a button.
In the US you can be prosecuted even as a passenger after an accident or incident, if you are in the front seat and so much as touch the controls. Even if when you touched them was a couple of hours before the incident.
Also in the US I see students who do not yet have a licence logging PIC time when they are dual (they log both).
The logging of flight time is regulated in most countries but not in the US. It is not necessary to have a log book, any method of record-keeping is acceptable and you don't have to record any time except that needed to meet a requirement. They mainly go by what you put on your medical each 6 month/year/5 yr. And of course that is just a guess!
So if you are competing for a job at Emirates/Korean with a chap from the US, forgetaboutit. He will always trump your numbers.
(I hold US and Aus licences and have used them, as well as others, so I know the drill).
When you live....
amateur by name....
In this process we've all stumbled on maybe one or two flights where 2 pilots have gone up for single pilot ops in the 210 or 172 and both logged command time.
Answering your second post/question - excellent idea transferring PIC duties mid-flight. Make sure explain to CASA thats what you did and then, to help them out, direct them to CAR224. It would also be helpful to draw their attention to subregulation 1A so that they may appreciate that your offence is one of strict liability.
Finally, the guy sitting in the right hand seat should be ready to show the nice man from CASA the signoff in his logbook that says he's been assessed as able to operate PIC from the right hand seat.
Hope your audit goes smoothly!
UTR
assessed as able to operate PIC from the right hand seat
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Hmm yes i've been scouring the law books to see if PIC must be sitting in the left seat. I only just have a freshly printed FIR and want to know if im allowed to fly the a/c from the right as PIC on solo flights. I couldnt find anywhere saying you must be approved to fly RHS. Unless it states in the POH cant any nignog PIC from the right, even without being "approved"?
When you live....
I didn't know there was such a thing in a single pilot aircraft.
UTR
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Excuse my ignorance but in some a/c doesn't the tacho only start ticking above certain rpm's?
In this instance, what's the deal with adding 0.1 to flights to encompass taxiing, run ups etc....?
If you do this, does it give CASA grounds to give you a b0ll0cking?
In this instance, what's the deal with adding 0.1 to flights to encompass taxiing, run ups etc....?
If you do this, does it give CASA grounds to give you a b0ll0cking?
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I don't have a reference that I can give. All the 'experienced' instructors and organisations I've flown for have required a signoff to operate PIC from the RHS and for a note/signoff (similar to those used for GPS enroute navigation etc) in the logbook. Basically, it involves demonstrating that you can do all the emergency procedures from the RHS.
I reckon it takes about 30 seconds to get used to the RHS in a light piston single or twin.
No reference = no restrictions.
FRQ CB
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Whoops, my log book is almost painted in whiteout 
As for taking 30 secs in light piston to become familiriased with RHS? Hmm maybe you're far more skilled, but for the average pilot such as myself i know it took most of the people i know a few lessons to be able to performa nice RHS landing and be able to hold perfect height in steep turns. I wouldnt want to jump in the RHS solo without having done a few landings from the RHS with someone compotent sitting in the LHS first. Just my opinion though.
As for taking 30 secs in light piston to become familiriased with RHS? Hmm maybe you're far more skilled, but for the average pilot such as myself i know it took most of the people i know a few lessons to be able to performa nice RHS landing and be able to hold perfect height in steep turns. I wouldnt want to jump in the RHS solo without having done a few landings from the RHS with someone compotent sitting in the LHS first. Just my opinion though.
Excuse my ignorance but--
Posters on PPRUNE might forgive your ignorance, but the law will not!!
Read the rules for logging pilot flight time, and log accordingly, otherwise you are committing a strict liability criminal offense. "tacho" time has nothing to do with it, nor the proper recording of flight time for aircraft maintenance. If your instructor/great granny/girlfriend/local rabbitoh says any different to the law, they are wrong.
As I get tired of saying --- being charged with ANY criminal offense related to aviation will see you barred from an increasing number of countries, starting with the US and Canada. A driving criminal offense conviction can bar you from both of the above --- including (especially including) DUI.
If you are a professional pilot, any criminal charge (regardless of whether there was a conviction or just an administrative fine) will have serious employment consequences, being barred from one of more countries really hampers your usefulness.
See the Canadian and US Consular web sites, if you have any doubt. The number of Australian aviation industry persons barred from entry to the US is steadily climbing.
Increasingly, during CASA audits of AOC holders, inspectors are taking away all pilot log books, and matching them meticulously with company/Airservices records.
Tootle pip!!
Last two companies I worked for don't exist, so how do CASA determine that my logbook entries are legitimate? how can they prove that I flew XYZ on that route, on that day?
Posters on PPRUNE might forgive your ignorance, but the law will not!!
Commercial operations on the other hand are a different matter. Your Ops Manual is simply there to ensure you are tied up in paperwork knots so that, come audit time, CASA have you on a plate.
Despite your greatest efforts to meet or exceed compliance requirements, paperwork errors or mix-ups are an instant "gotcha".
amateur, when the boss sends you out to buy the Iced Vovos be a good lad and also buy your CP a jar of Vaseline.
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eg one guy took off flew first few hours then other pilot flew and landed, would one of us be able to log that as Co-Pilot time?
amateur, I think it's only legal to log co-pilot time on a recognized two crew aircraft. That would be the commonsense approach.
amateur, I think it's only legal to log co-pilot time on a recognized two crew aircraft. That would be the commonsense approach.
Not just themselves,
What about the guy/gal who has legitimately clocked up his/her hours and missed out on a job because some deadsh
t has written themselves into the required position?
F THAT!
What about the guy/gal who has legitimately clocked up his/her hours and missed out on a job because some deadsh
t has written themselves into the required position?F THAT!
No requirements whatsoever apart from the PIC ensuring that a qualified person is strapped into a command seat and the usual requirement that the PIC ensure that the operation is safe.
I reckon it takes about 30 seconds to get used to the RHS in a light piston single or twin.
I reckon it takes about 30 seconds to get used to the RHS in a light piston single or twin.
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No requirements whatsoever apart from the PIC ensuring that a qualified person is strapped into a command seat and the usual requirement that the PIC ensure that the operation is safe.
I reckon it takes about 30 seconds to get used to the RHS in a light piston single or twin.
I reckon it takes about 30 seconds to get used to the RHS in a light piston single or twin.
Ref CARs 176, 224 (Operator must designate 1 PIC), 243 and 225.
FRQ CB
Horatio Whistleblower,
Actually, I agree with most of your post, but the fact remains, if CASA does proceed in the case of falsified logbooks (which does happen, it's a gimme for CASA/DPP) it's far more than a minor embarrassment for the poor sod concerned.
The law simply does not recognize rules of thumb, add 0.1 to the tacho etc.
Tootle pip!!
Actually, I agree with most of your post, but the fact remains, if CASA does proceed in the case of falsified logbooks (which does happen, it's a gimme for CASA/DPP) it's far more than a minor embarrassment for the poor sod concerned.
The law simply does not recognize rules of thumb, add 0.1 to the tacho etc.
Tootle pip!!
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CAR 2 describes:
If I use the flight timer on my ADF (which simply starts counting the moment I turn on the Avionics Master and the ADF unless I reset it) and I begin movement at the same time then am I justified logging the time showing on the timer as I apply the parking brake for shutdown?
What if, in the interest of maximising the numbers in my logbook I endevour to:
Using the flight timer and the above methods can lead to some considerable differences between MR time and one's logbook, especially when conducting circuits in an aircraft with an "APPROVED METHOD" flight switch which runs by gear down time (thereby legally yielding a lower maintenance time than time actually spent aloft but not much of an issue as the aeroplane is rarely used in repetitive circuits).
This is provided mostly as food for thought but I'd also like to hear if anyone disagrees... basically, am I being dodgy
?
FRQ CB
PS Do astro/cosmonaut Commanders log 2,190 hours for a single flight at the end of a three month mission
?
flight time means:
(a) in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft — the total time
from the moment at which the aircraft first moves under
its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the
moment at which it comes to rest after landing;
(a) in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft — the total time
from the moment at which the aircraft first moves under
its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the
moment at which it comes to rest after landing;
What if, in the interest of maximising the numbers in my logbook I endevour to:
- Not do run-ups in the same place as engine start (think ALAs)
- when possible avoid stopping as long as possible (such as when clear of the runway and at intersections) after landing.
Using the flight timer and the above methods can lead to some considerable differences between MR time and one's logbook, especially when conducting circuits in an aircraft with an "APPROVED METHOD" flight switch which runs by gear down time (thereby legally yielding a lower maintenance time than time actually spent aloft but not much of an issue as the aeroplane is rarely used in repetitive circuits).
This is provided mostly as food for thought but I'd also like to hear if anyone disagrees... basically, am I being dodgy
?FRQ CB
PS Do astro/cosmonaut Commanders log 2,190 hours for a single flight at the end of a three month mission
?
Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo; 1st Apr 2010 at 22:04. Reason: punctuation