Margin for 50 hourly/oil & filter change
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Margin for 50 hourly/oil & filter change
Quick question for the LAME's and insurance experts out there:
I have just over eight hours left until the MR for my Archer stipulates an oil/filter change, and I'm planning a trip that could get me very close or if I need to divert majorly, maybe over that figure.
My MR says 'Oil cx + filter insp IAW Lyc SB 480E' at '7339 (or F/SW 1889) or each 4 mths'.
How much leeway do I have insurance-wise and re. upsetting CASA with this, i.e. can I go over a couple of hours F/SW and if I have an engine failure and subsequent damage will the insurance company turn around and refuse to cover it (and CASA may fine me), or is it generally accepted that you can't hit the 50 hours spot on and can do it when it suits, assuming of course you don't stretch it too unreasonably (like 5-10 hours over)?
Same with the four month time limit, is it going to be a problem if I fly a couple of times after the four month period before I get the oil change done, or could that get me in trouble?
Cheers!
I have just over eight hours left until the MR for my Archer stipulates an oil/filter change, and I'm planning a trip that could get me very close or if I need to divert majorly, maybe over that figure.
My MR says 'Oil cx + filter insp IAW Lyc SB 480E' at '7339 (or F/SW 1889) or each 4 mths'.
How much leeway do I have insurance-wise and re. upsetting CASA with this, i.e. can I go over a couple of hours F/SW and if I have an engine failure and subsequent damage will the insurance company turn around and refuse to cover it (and CASA may fine me), or is it generally accepted that you can't hit the 50 hours spot on and can do it when it suits, assuming of course you don't stretch it too unreasonably (like 5-10 hours over)?
Same with the four month time limit, is it going to be a problem if I fly a couple of times after the four month period before I get the oil change done, or could that get me in trouble?
Cheers!
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With aircraft under a maintenance control system eg RPT and charter it is not unusual to get CASA approval to over run some checks by a few hours. In commercial operations I have certainly seen extensions approved up to 10%. I don't know the legal answer to your situation as a private operator but would strongly advise that you get some sort of approval in writing to cover yourself in case of an incident. In practical terms, if the engine has had regular use then running it 5 hours over the oil/filter interval is highly unlikely to cause it any harm. Maintenance intervals for aircraft are usually conservative.
Interesting question.
The Lycoming service bulletin is headed "Mandatory". However the S/B detail commences with "Lycoming recommends".
S/B can be found here http://www.lycoming.textron.com/supp...dfs/SB480E.pdf
I believe that the S/B is not mandatory so you are not breaking any rules if you fly beyond the 50 hours or 4 months.
It might also come down to how the entry is worded in your maintenance release ie. Oil change and filter required at xxxx as distinct from IAW Lycoming S/B Oil change and filter required at xxxx. Just my opinion.
I am keen to see what the engineers think about this.
The Lycoming service bulletin is headed "Mandatory". However the S/B detail commences with "Lycoming recommends".
S/B can be found here http://www.lycoming.textron.com/supp...dfs/SB480E.pdf
I believe that the S/B is not mandatory so you are not breaking any rules if you fly beyond the 50 hours or 4 months.
It might also come down to how the entry is worded in your maintenance release ie. Oil change and filter required at xxxx as distinct from IAW Lycoming S/B Oil change and filter required at xxxx. Just my opinion.
I am keen to see what the engineers think about this.
I'm not sure (and no doubt someone will point it out if I'm wrong!!) but there is/used to be provision somewhere in the regs for a flight "to maintenance" or something along those lines, so if you go 50 or slightly over and you are away from base, you still can "legally" fly the aircraft to the maintenance organisation, but the flight must only be for the purposes of repositioning the aircraft for maintenance.
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I would have thought that your LAME could allow this to occur if you asked them.
I have the same problem, I'm 10 hours from my 600 hourly and if I go on my proposed trip over easter I'll go over. It's a pain in the butt. Luckily I can just write myself a new maintenance release.
I remember talking with some guys who flew from Perth to Melbourne and planned to go back again. They didn't allow for such a headwind and needed to go over the MR in hours, so they rang home and got it approved by the LAME so I just always assumed that it could be done.
I have the same problem, I'm 10 hours from my 600 hourly and if I go on my proposed trip over easter I'll go over. It's a pain in the butt. Luckily I can just write myself a new maintenance release.
I remember talking with some guys who flew from Perth to Melbourne and planned to go back again. They didn't allow for such a headwind and needed to go over the MR in hours, so they rang home and got it approved by the LAME so I just always assumed that it could be done.
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Qnh1013.2
QNH says:
I have the same problem, I'm 10 hours from my 600 hourly and if I go on my proposed trip over easter I'll go over. It's a pain in the butt. Luckily I can just write myself a new maintenance release.
Or how about this, don't do any maintenance and fly it until it falls out of the sky.
Will save you lots of messing around.
Aviation has a perfect record - we've never left one up there
I have the same problem, I'm 10 hours from my 600 hourly and if I go on my proposed trip over easter I'll go over. It's a pain in the butt. Luckily I can just write myself a new maintenance release.
Or how about this, don't do any maintenance and fly it until it falls out of the sky.
Will save you lots of messing around.
Aviation has a perfect record - we've never left one up there
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PlankBlender
Hi Planky
To answer your question the 50 hour oil change is recommended for the longevity of the engine, is not really a safety issue.
If you are the aircraft owner you will want to keep the costs of your engine overhauls down, the oil change interval helps with this.
Just plan to be at an airport were you can carry it out, for private operations oil change is listed as pilot maintenance.
Don't be like one of my customers with a Bell 473B1, landed 30 minutes short of his destination in a paddock because his oil and filter change was due. Ended up with a screwdriver stuck through the filter and no way out.
Duty of care as a LAME prevents me from recommending anything other than the OEM continuing airworthiness data, but commonsense should prevail.
To answer your question the 50 hour oil change is recommended for the longevity of the engine, is not really a safety issue.
If you are the aircraft owner you will want to keep the costs of your engine overhauls down, the oil change interval helps with this.
Just plan to be at an airport were you can carry it out, for private operations oil change is listed as pilot maintenance.
Don't be like one of my customers with a Bell 473B1, landed 30 minutes short of his destination in a paddock because his oil and filter change was due. Ended up with a screwdriver stuck through the filter and no way out.
Duty of care as a LAME prevents me from recommending anything other than the OEM continuing airworthiness data, but commonsense should prevail.
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From my limited experience
I am of the practical belief that 10% is a good margin to allow.
I do follow the directions as laid out on the MR, and as this is a legal document I suggest you should to. No doubt some ambulance chaser somewhere would try and stick you for the replacement cost if anything was to go wrong.
I have been taught this rule by many experienced pilots and LAME's alike, but there is no reasoning for it - as per documents. I have only ever changed the oil and filter after a flight, as left to drain cold it takes for ever, and after runnning it in, the engine engine will not have scavenged the oil yet, and thus allowing a greater amount to be changed for clean - I think
As pr the insurnance company. Ask for thier reccomendation and make sure you get it in writing if you are becoming a little sceptical. Most insurers are happy to work with you, and usually have some very knowledgeble and experienced staff on their books.
But I still agree with 5 hrs or as it is in most cases (10%).
I do follow the directions as laid out on the MR, and as this is a legal document I suggest you should to. No doubt some ambulance chaser somewhere would try and stick you for the replacement cost if anything was to go wrong.
I have been taught this rule by many experienced pilots and LAME's alike, but there is no reasoning for it - as per documents. I have only ever changed the oil and filter after a flight, as left to drain cold it takes for ever, and after runnning it in, the engine engine will not have scavenged the oil yet, and thus allowing a greater amount to be changed for clean - I think
As pr the insurnance company. Ask for thier reccomendation and make sure you get it in writing if you are becoming a little sceptical. Most insurers are happy to work with you, and usually have some very knowledgeble and experienced staff on their books.
But I still agree with 5 hrs or as it is in most cases (10%).
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AD/ENG/4 Amd11 does not recommend oil changes, it requires them to be done. It has given a standard + or - 10% tolerance. Previous amendments allowed the tolerance only if the manufacturer gave one ( continental yes, lycoming mostly no). It also now requires a filter change, previous amendments allowed for long filters on continentals to go for 100 hours.
So in short, yes you have a tolerance of 10%, and you DO have to do one. I am sure amendment 12 will move the goal posts again.
So in short, yes you have a tolerance of 10%, and you DO have to do one. I am sure amendment 12 will move the goal posts again.
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AD/ENG/4 Amd11 does not recommend oil changes, it requires them to be done.
Hey Socket
Thanks for that update.
Been working out of country for a while.
That means it is mandatory - no way around it.
And Mr_Pilot - there is a very good reason for changing oil when it is at operating temperature, other than to annoy the LAME!! Think sludge, condensation etc.
Blackhand
Thanks for that update.
Been working out of country for a while.
That means it is mandatory - no way around it.
And Mr_Pilot - there is a very good reason for changing oil when it is at operating temperature, other than to annoy the LAME!! Think sludge, condensation etc.
Blackhand
I may be conservative but IMHO if the MR says OC by certain hours, in my opinion that's it - the flight that makes it go over that number is the last one without an OC. A phone call to the LAME may get you home, but I would prefer not to get into that situation. In the situation being discussed I would have the OC done before I go (or get the the LAME to extend the time requirement on the MR before leaving).
If the LAME has endorsed a + or - margin on the MR then no worries extending to that limit (but not beyond it).
If the LAME has endorsed a + or - margin on the MR then no worries extending to that limit (but not beyond it).
Some years ago our approved Maintenance System Manual permitted an existing flight to continue if a manitenance inspection became due. However a flight from a maintenance base could not be planned and undertaken if the planned flight hours exceeded the available MR hours to next inspection.
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Be very careful with this one. Agreed with contacting insurer and getting it in writing. Reason for this is your MR states 50hrs or 4 months. If the engineer didn't put +/-5hrs adjacent to the 50hrs I would stick to the 50hrs, especially if no letter comes from the insurer. Unlikely an engine failure will occur due to stretching the change of oil and filter an extra 5 hrs. But, murphy reckons it'll happen. Highly likely then the insurer is gonna 'say sorry pal you didn't stick to your MR requirement .... I don't care what AD/ENG/4 says, cos your MR says 50hrs'.
You could just save yourself the trouble and get the oil and filter changed before you go. It shouldn't take any longer than an hour or two and you'll have nothing to worry about.
You could just save yourself the trouble and get the oil and filter changed before you go. It shouldn't take any longer than an hour or two and you'll have nothing to worry about.
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Oil and filter is allowed pilot maintenance and not too difficult. Chuck a filter a few quarts of oil in the back and DIY when due.. Don't forget to sign it off on the MR. As for the +/-10%, I think it has to be written somewhere (MR, logbook?) for it to be valid.
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Do it early
Why not replace oil & filter before you go -save all the hassle & worry.Nothing in the regs to say it cant be changed early.Unless The a/c is used frequently it may not do another 50 hrs before the annual is due anyway - hence no real extra cost etc.
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I reaise bigger more complex machines require a bit more thought, but we are talking a Piper Single here.
Its about $80 for oil and bugger all for a filter so do it early!
Fresh oil and a happy engine!
Its about $80 for oil and bugger all for a filter so do it early!
Fresh oil and a happy engine!
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Plank, the first and only place you should look first to answer your question is your aircraft's logbook statement (LBS) Part 1.
This will indicate under what maintenance schedules the aircraft is bound by. The LBS should ideally be signed by the registered owner/operator as saying 'yep, I accept that'.
Further the AD/ENG/4 may not be applicable at all as it states that only if you are maintaining it IAW CASA schedules. Again, check the LBS first.
pcx has a good point, it also depends on how the 50 hrly is written up. Technically the Lyc SB mandates the filter to be opened up and inspected, which IS NOT covered under Schedule 8 - Pilot Maintenance - a small but important issue.
Do/get it done early and save the hassle!
This will indicate under what maintenance schedules the aircraft is bound by. The LBS should ideally be signed by the registered owner/operator as saying 'yep, I accept that'.
Further the AD/ENG/4 may not be applicable at all as it states that only if you are maintaining it IAW CASA schedules. Again, check the LBS first.
pcx has a good point, it also depends on how the 50 hrly is written up. Technically the Lyc SB mandates the filter to be opened up and inspected, which IS NOT covered under Schedule 8 - Pilot Maintenance - a small but important issue.
Do/get it done early and save the hassle!
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Great advice as usual here, thanks heaps!
My MR stipulates 'CASA maintenance sch 5 + PA18-181 mm', so I guess ENG4 applies and with that the 10% tolerance.
Oil and filter change are getting done today, the question was primarily one of liability and practice. In this country what the regs state and what is applicable practice often vary considerably. I'll still double check with the insurer for good measure, though, you never know, they will take any opportunity to wriggle themselves out of coughing up
ENG4 also states that filter inspection is not needed when the pilot does it, so I suppose that overrules the Lycoming SB (I wish there was some no-nonsense advice by CASA on this, both of their maintenance guides for owners and operators don't even mention owner oil changes
):
Follow-up question here: Where does one do a pilot oil and filter change these days? I'd be more than happy to do it myself rather than pay someone a couple of hundred bucks for the privilege, but I'm not sure it'll be looked at kindly if I put a can under my plane on the grass at Archerfield.. and I'd then just drive the old oil to the nearest depot or what? 
My MR stipulates 'CASA maintenance sch 5 + PA18-181 mm', so I guess ENG4 applies and with that the 10% tolerance.
Oil and filter change are getting done today, the question was primarily one of liability and practice. In this country what the regs state and what is applicable practice often vary considerably. I'll still double check with the insurer for good measure, though, you never know, they will take any opportunity to wriggle themselves out of coughing up
ENG4 also states that filter inspection is not needed when the pilot does it, so I suppose that overrules the Lycoming SB (I wish there was some no-nonsense advice by CASA on this, both of their maintenance guides for owners and operators don't even mention owner oil changes
):
A3(b) Engine oil filter, oil pressure screen and suction screen inspection
All engine oil and engine oil filter replacements, including those carried out in the period between the aircraft periodic inspections, unless carried out by a pilot, shall include inspecting the engine oil pressure filter, oil pressure screen and, if applicable, the oil suction screen, for evidence of metallic particles, shavings or flakes. Take corrective action, where necessary
All engine oil and engine oil filter replacements, including those carried out in the period between the aircraft periodic inspections, unless carried out by a pilot, shall include inspecting the engine oil pressure filter, oil pressure screen and, if applicable, the oil suction screen, for evidence of metallic particles, shavings or flakes. Take corrective action, where necessary