Jacobson Flare
I've seen some that can flare 'OK' without looking to the end of the runway, but I tell you what, they're all hopeless in a crosswind.
During the flare its all about controlling attitude - looking at the horizon is the best way to control the attitude and if you do what comes naturally to point the aircraft straight down the centreline i.e. nose straight then naturally you HAVE to give it a little bank, just a little, to stop it drifting.
Jacobsen is just an mathematical representation of the above.
Mach E Avelli's description on page one (motorcycles - look where your want to go) actually would work well for a carrier arrival I'd say
I prefer to look and go more or less parallel to the runway for the last couple of feet, not straight at it!
During the flare its all about controlling attitude - looking at the horizon is the best way to control the attitude and if you do what comes naturally to point the aircraft straight down the centreline i.e. nose straight then naturally you HAVE to give it a little bank, just a little, to stop it drifting.
Jacobsen is just an mathematical representation of the above.
Mach E Avelli's description on page one (motorcycles - look where your want to go) actually would work well for a carrier arrival I'd say
I prefer to look and go more or less parallel to the runway for the last couple of feet, not straight at it!
"I've seen some that can flare 'OK' without looking to the end of the runway, but I tell you what, they're all hopeless in a crosswind".
Seriously, why make such stupid comments?!
Somehow people have managed to land very successfully and smoothly for decades (yours included) in all manner of crosswinds and different aircraft types.
Making a statement as definitive as that above is foolish.
It's not that hard.
Go put some thought in how to land a manned vehicle on mars or something because this little mystery of aviation was adequately solved by Wilbur and Orville some time ago.
Seriously, why make such stupid comments?!
Somehow people have managed to land very successfully and smoothly for decades (yours included) in all manner of crosswinds and different aircraft types.
Making a statement as definitive as that above is foolish.
It's not that hard.
Go put some thought in how to land a manned vehicle on mars or something because this little mystery of aviation was adequately solved by Wilbur and Orville some time ago.
Last edited by Al E. Vator; 18th Nov 2015 at 12:12. Reason: addition
Just an honest observation.
I agree with you about not overcomplicating things; not advocating the mathematical flare at all. Just saying you've got to look, no, SEE, where the aircraft is going to control it in all 3 dimensions and that involves not staring at the aiming point or the ground just in front of it, but rather, the far end of the runway or the horizon.
AFAIK this is the way its been taught since pre WWII so that may explain why everybody has so many successful landings as you say!
I agree with you about not overcomplicating things; not advocating the mathematical flare at all. Just saying you've got to look, no, SEE, where the aircraft is going to control it in all 3 dimensions and that involves not staring at the aiming point or the ground just in front of it, but rather, the far end of the runway or the horizon.
AFAIK this is the way its been taught since pre WWII so that may explain why everybody has so many successful landings as you say!
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This thread reminds me of a poster I once saw on the wall of a Pilots Room somewhere. It read;
"There are three secrets in how to make a good Landing.
Unfortunately, no-one knows what they are!"
"There are three secrets in how to make a good Landing.
Unfortunately, no-one knows what they are!"
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You don't need to have the aim point in the centre of your vision to be looking at it!!! I thought it was common practice to transfer your focus to the far end of the runway when entering the flare - it's far easier to judge your round-out and touch down if you use peripheral vision.
Also, for those of you denigrating the Jacobson Flare (and some of you even the man himself) for being too academic - maybe you need to be reminded that different people learn differently. If you don't like a highly engineered approach like this, that's your prerogative, but there are some who prefer a more articulate description of what is both a beautifully simple and incredibly complex maneuver.
Also, for those of you denigrating the Jacobson Flare (and some of you even the man himself) for being too academic - maybe you need to be reminded that different people learn differently. If you don't like a highly engineered approach like this, that's your prerogative, but there are some who prefer a more articulate description of what is both a beautifully simple and incredibly complex maneuver.
Last edited by Cloud Cutter; 19th Nov 2015 at 02:30.
I'm going to add that to my approach brief this arvo... "I will be performing...
and therefore I won't predict the outcome!" 
what is both a beautifully simple and incredibly complex maneuver.
I bought the Jacobsen Flare article some years ago and it helped me improve my landings at the time - especially the "flying to the end of the runway" instruction. I had earlier had very effective help from an instructor regarding eye usage in the form of a A4 bit of paper and four globs of blue tack over the instruments to keep e looking outside. The aim point/airspeed mantra on approach. followed by flying to the horizon seems to work for me even in a crosswind. The time to flare? I learn that by braille
From my own experience landing is about muscle memory and sight picture. On a good day for me, everything is nice and smooth. A bad day, not so much. I have yet to determine exactly what critical personal judgements are stuffing up my landings or making them acceptable and I think my only hope is practice, practice, practice.
In a yacht, I can open a can for someone, scratch my ear and have a conversation while standing backward steering with my bum when docking in 30 knots without cracking the proverbial egg because Ive been doing it for Sixty years. I hope to attain similar capability in an aircraft one day like some of the posters here.
From my own experience landing is about muscle memory and sight picture. On a good day for me, everything is nice and smooth. A bad day, not so much. I have yet to determine exactly what critical personal judgements are stuffing up my landings or making them acceptable and I think my only hope is practice, practice, practice.
In a yacht, I can open a can for someone, scratch my ear and have a conversation while standing backward steering with my bum when docking in 30 knots without cracking the proverbial egg because Ive been doing it for Sixty years. I hope to attain similar capability in an aircraft one day like some of the posters here.
Glekichi, looking where you want to plant it may well work for carrier arrivals - I dunno because the closest I ever came to a carrier landing was watching 'Top Gun'.
But it definitely works a treat on rough, unmarked, irregular, one way bush strips and those with obstacles all around which can create illusions if you look anywhere other than where you want to go. Some PNG strips slope up so steeply that if you looked at the far end, chances are you would be flaring at 100 feet.
As for whether those of us who did our early few thousand hours on tailwheel Cessnas and DC3s and the like are "all hopeless in a crosswind" - we would not still be here if that were the case.
The Jacobsen Flare has its place, and we were taught more or less this technique (long before Jacobsen published it) for night landings on a flare path with no glideslope information at night.
But how about we accept that other techniques work better for some of us?
But it definitely works a treat on rough, unmarked, irregular, one way bush strips and those with obstacles all around which can create illusions if you look anywhere other than where you want to go. Some PNG strips slope up so steeply that if you looked at the far end, chances are you would be flaring at 100 feet.
As for whether those of us who did our early few thousand hours on tailwheel Cessnas and DC3s and the like are "all hopeless in a crosswind" - we would not still be here if that were the case.
The Jacobsen Flare has its place, and we were taught more or less this technique (long before Jacobsen published it) for night landings on a flare path with no glideslope information at night.
But how about we accept that other techniques work better for some of us?
I often think that landing is like making a golf stroke. They both require hand/eye co-ordination and timing. The best instruction I had from a golf coach was "Just hit the bl**dy thing".
I'm not very good at golf either
I'm not very good at golf either
This technique and variations of it has been taught in RAAF pilot training since Dicky Williams first lapped a box kite around the flagpole. Perhaps if he had thought it to name it the 'Dick Flare', the name might have caught on!
Many years ago at Avalon I was an observer on the jump seat of a Qantas 707 when the captain (I think his surname was Harding?) was conducting left seat training on a first officer. I remember it well because I have never seen a F/O physically sweat so profusely as he flew the circuit. He sure was tensed up.
As he flared for landing the instructor reached over and put his hand over the eyes of the "student" and said "hold it there and do nothing and the aircraft will land itself"
Sure enough it greased on and the instructor removed his hand and they did a touch and go. Maybe that was a Harding flare as distinct from a Jacobson Flare of another era.
As he flared for landing the instructor reached over and put his hand over the eyes of the "student" and said "hold it there and do nothing and the aircraft will land itself"
Sure enough it greased on and the instructor removed his hand and they did a touch and go. Maybe that was a Harding flare as distinct from a Jacobson Flare of another era.
Sorry Mach E, it's half tongue in cheek but I do find it interesting that you say look where you want to go, which I honestly believe works, like you, from a mix of aeroplane and motorcycle experience.
Thing is, to flare, you can't be looking at where the aircraft was going a moment before. The mains, assuming we are talking about tricycle aircraft, are going to be some way behind you, as should be your aiming point, at the moment of touch down. Should they not?
If one keeps a constant flight path towards an aiming point and keeps going where they're looking and that does not change for the flare, there is no flare, which would then equal a carrier arrival, although, like you I have no experience post Top Gun and for all I know there could even be a little flare involved in those too but lets not let the truth get in the way of an attempt at a good story.
Ive done my share of bush flying too but it's the number of transport category multi crew aircraft pilots that have average crosswind technique to which I refer. Seems to be an inability to see/read the aircraft trajectory well and very much related to where they're looking.
Thing is, to flare, you can't be looking at where the aircraft was going a moment before. The mains, assuming we are talking about tricycle aircraft, are going to be some way behind you, as should be your aiming point, at the moment of touch down. Should they not?
If one keeps a constant flight path towards an aiming point and keeps going where they're looking and that does not change for the flare, there is no flare, which would then equal a carrier arrival, although, like you I have no experience post Top Gun and for all I know there could even be a little flare involved in those too but lets not let the truth get in the way of an attempt at a good story.
Ive done my share of bush flying too but it's the number of transport category multi crew aircraft pilots that have average crosswind technique to which I refer. Seems to be an inability to see/read the aircraft trajectory well and very much related to where they're looking.
There was an occasion when a then young RAAF 36 Sqn C-130H Hercules copilot had a load of Army troops on board. After a couple of missed approaches into a very tight ALA, as handling pilot he heard a command to "Put the f*cker down". Thinking that the command came from his Captain, he did. Then only to find out later that an Army guy had a headset...
That's a true story.
That's a true story.
Last edited by gerry111; 20th Nov 2015 at 14:06.
Some pilots of large transport aircraft probably lose crosswind skills over time - if they ever had them in the first place. Depends on the type and whether it is tolerant to landing with drift on, and factors such as typical operating environment where crosswinds may be infrequent. Quite likely the latter is what causes crosswind skills to degrade.
Back in the day when simulators did not do the ground handling bit as well as some now do, it was common to have a period of base training circuits in the actual aircraft prior to going to line training.
Some pilots coming up from bugsmashers would have problems with the flare. A useful technique that worked when I was base training was to have them fly down the runway as close to the ground as they could get, all the while controlling speed at V approach and laying off drift to maintain the centreline. Occasionally the wheels would touch, which told them they were too low - "late on the round-out Hoskins". The aim was to get the wheels within a metre or two of the ground and just hold the aircraft at a constant height. The only way they could maintain height accurately so close to the ground was to look down and slightly ahead, certainly not at the far end of the runway which would be rapidly changing in aspect at over 100 knots of ground speed. After a few such passes, all they had to add to the skillset was to remove the drift and select idle thrust while holding the pitch attitude. As good as any autoland but more fun.
Back in the day when simulators did not do the ground handling bit as well as some now do, it was common to have a period of base training circuits in the actual aircraft prior to going to line training.
Some pilots coming up from bugsmashers would have problems with the flare. A useful technique that worked when I was base training was to have them fly down the runway as close to the ground as they could get, all the while controlling speed at V approach and laying off drift to maintain the centreline. Occasionally the wheels would touch, which told them they were too low - "late on the round-out Hoskins". The aim was to get the wheels within a metre or two of the ground and just hold the aircraft at a constant height. The only way they could maintain height accurately so close to the ground was to look down and slightly ahead, certainly not at the far end of the runway which would be rapidly changing in aspect at over 100 knots of ground speed. After a few such passes, all they had to add to the skillset was to remove the drift and select idle thrust while holding the pitch attitude. As good as any autoland but more fun.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 21st Nov 2015 at 20:37.
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The HDAg approach and flare:
At end of last top dressing run for the load, spreading lever to closed while hard descending turn back to strip keep MAP up, pull prop back a couple of 100 rpm
Keep speed for the 1 minute transit to strip, as wingtip just misses the funny shaped branch on the second tree up from the dam chop power, hard left descending turn, look through roof window at 300 m strip aim for the point beside the fence post with the old tyre hanging on it about 100 metres short of the loader check long grass out side window for local wind strength and direction, slip into cross wind, level wings full flap adjust aim point to the big thistle just up from the tyre clear hopper gate by slamming the dump handle once or twice hold slip right into flare boot straight just before touchdown look up hill at the loader truck dump flap as wheels hit the grass right beside the thistle hard brakes both feel right up to the loader take one brake off for 180 turn miss loader by at least one foot (30.5cm) stop exactly 45 degrees to truck, open hopper lid nod him to move in point one (index) finger in the air for extra hundredweight of fertiliser due to slight increase in tailwind for landing prop fine check fuel re trim set take off flap control check as truck backs out after dumping one and a quarter tons in the hopper close lid look ahead for stock full power 30 seconds after stopping release brakes point of no return down hill a bit more flap to break ground and jump fence accelerate and shallow turn toward next spreading run keep wingtip clear of ground clean up some flap look for the wires. Repeat a hundred times or more each day for a few years.
Sooner or later you get reasonably good at it.
3 degree stabilised approach
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HD
At end of last top dressing run for the load, spreading lever to closed while hard descending turn back to strip keep MAP up, pull prop back a couple of 100 rpm
Keep speed for the 1 minute transit to strip, as wingtip just misses the funny shaped branch on the second tree up from the dam chop power, hard left descending turn, look through roof window at 300 m strip aim for the point beside the fence post with the old tyre hanging on it about 100 metres short of the loader check long grass out side window for local wind strength and direction, slip into cross wind, level wings full flap adjust aim point to the big thistle just up from the tyre clear hopper gate by slamming the dump handle once or twice hold slip right into flare boot straight just before touchdown look up hill at the loader truck dump flap as wheels hit the grass right beside the thistle hard brakes both feel right up to the loader take one brake off for 180 turn miss loader by at least one foot (30.5cm) stop exactly 45 degrees to truck, open hopper lid nod him to move in point one (index) finger in the air for extra hundredweight of fertiliser due to slight increase in tailwind for landing prop fine check fuel re trim set take off flap control check as truck backs out after dumping one and a quarter tons in the hopper close lid look ahead for stock full power 30 seconds after stopping release brakes point of no return down hill a bit more flap to break ground and jump fence accelerate and shallow turn toward next spreading run keep wingtip clear of ground clean up some flap look for the wires. Repeat a hundred times or more each day for a few years.
Sooner or later you get reasonably good at it.
3 degree stabilised approach
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HD