Violation of Controlled Airspace

[amberale]

Quote:
The Redcliff areoclub CFI wasa gobsmacked when he rang us back to inform us that the aircraft couldnt have responded to our radio transmissions as all four people on board were profoundly DEAF.
I have a volume control

Well done sir.
I assume you also have a frequency control and a map or publication to assist in selecting one of the 16 frequencies attempted in contacting the referenced VCA.

AA

[amberale]

Jaba, I'm not sure. I haven't read it yet.
I know Blackcloud was close to tears rcieving the phone call.

AA

[Bell_Flyer]

Most CTR and much CTA was revised a number of years ago, and with respect to CTR now generally they are where the limits of nav tolerance splays are for the various instrument approaches and to contain holding patterns within CTA.

Thanks for your perspective. I am looking at a Sydney VTC. The threshold of runway 34R is 5nm from Victor 1 say, to the south or anywhere along the purple dots. Why is it safe to fly at 500 feet under a A380 or 747 landing on 34R or L (with no clearance or even need to talk to tower) but you need a clearance to fly to within 22nm west or north of YSRI when you do the same? Surely the laws of physics apply to both A380's and say, the Globe Master? Why is the nav tolerance different to need approx 5-6 times the real estate of YSSY?

Also, the same applies to YSNW. Why are ALL Romeo airspace activated when they are active? I can't see why you would need 20 miles of real estate north of the airfield (used to be far bigger)? What type of aircraft would need this distance to do an IFR approach?

Would appreciate an angle on this.

[aditya104]

VH-XXX said
Is it 1 mile from the CTA boundary for day VFR and 3 for NVFR, or 2 perhaps...?

AVOIDING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (AIP ENR 1.1)
When operating VFR in E or G airspace, the following tolerances should be
applied to the planned tracks in order to avoid controlled airspace.

0-2000ftAGL +-1nm(day) +-2nm(night)
2001-5000AGL +-2nm +-3nm
5001-10000AGL +-4nm +-5nm
From 10001 to FL200 all acft VFR should apply +-8nm

i think these numbers are increasing with height because the accuracy of pin-pointing the position on the map decreases with increase in height. IS that the reason or something else contributes to these numbers?

[DBTW]

Regs

Bell_Flyer I reckon you are asking pertinent questions. It's a fact though that we simply love to be regulated!

There have been several threads discussing how large controlled airpsace is in Australia, and the huge size of restricted areas in our big wide (empty) land. The answers usually come back about how frightened you would be if you saw an F18 or a helicopter nearby because the sky is black with them in those special places. That is, of course, simply not true.

I think the answer is more about our desire to be told what to do than anything else. Somebody esle can therefore be responsible for what happens. Cue the horrified hoards who "like things the way they are and I am not bothered by all the airspace restrictions which make flying much harder than it needs to be."

No, Richmond doesn't need such a big zone, and Nowra does not need to be protected by such large restricted areas. The rate of flying that goes on in the airspace you have identified is very low. For the airpsace size to be reduced (at best) or released more frequently (at worst) would only be a benefit to everyone and a burden to none.

Yes, there would be fewer violations if airspace usage wasn't so regulated. In such a big country with such vast airspace available, the number of near misses and collisions wouldn't go up either...

[Bell_Flyer]

Real Estate

Thanks DBTW.

I wonder if there is a study somewhere by the old CAA or CASA or ASA or NTSB that co-relates size of CTA to VCA.

I looked carefully at the Jeppersen NDB approaches. At YSRI as an example, the NDB final approach course of the extended centreline is the 10nm arc but look at how much real estate they have taken east and west!!

If I were a very low time 152 or R22 pilot, my first instinct would be to avoid the airspace by way of skirting around it. But the space is so large I can see how easy it would be to incur into it accidentally.

Guess the uniforms will just say "Safety Requirement" and that's the end of the discussion. Kinda like ASICs at Thargomindah or Birdsville or Oodnadatta - it's all about the safety of Australia.

[CaptainMidnight]

Its clear to me now you are referring to restricted areas and military CTR rather than civil CTR/CTA. Entirely different activities can take place therein of course.

Mil CTR & restricted areas usually surround major bases and so in addition to containing instrument approaches and circling areas etc. can encompass other activities, which on their own might justify restricted areas if the CTR and restricted areas weren't there eg. firing ranges, ordinance disposal, approach to bombing range, heli training area etc.

It is a Defence issue to explain & justify military airspace lateral and vertical limits.

[Jabawocky]

Like Aero's in a Bou..... which I got to watch +/- 2000' from my level one day. Thanks for the clearance AMB!MIL CTR is excessive and in some cases excessively complicated. You would be surprised how Airline drivers with local and international experience give up on fathoming CTRin some places (threads previous). Sure if you take half an hour and a highlighter pen you can get them all sorted, by then its all changed!J

[C-change]

Just wondering C-change, on the converse, do you ever, as a controller, think sometimes that CTA boundaries are set way too large?

Bell flyer, yes and no. This will sound like a sitting on the fence answer but it depends on what is flying and what they are doing. In regards to MIL flying, you may be on freq and hear nothing but there could be several aircraft on freq doing all kinds of weird stuff. Slow and quick stuff, not talking (deliberately), doing the "war"ie stuff. As for capital city, I think it could be bigger. Seen too many clowns over the years getting too close to RPT etc. Stuffing up sequences etc, resulting in pissed off pax, crew etc, the list goes on.

I guess my original post was aimed at some unprofessional and lazy pilots (not you) that I had to deal with in one particular week. They just pissed me off. I have no problem with students etc making an error, a late call, that sort of thing but overflying an active airfeild without making a call, then landing and parking in front of the hangar, is a bit much.

At the end of the day I just keep em apart so they can all do their thing, whatever that may be. So long as they don't end up a smokin hole in the ground, I've had a good day.
Some of them out their make a good day a little bit harder to acheive.

[Bell_Flyer]

Wide Open Spaces

Thank-you C-change. On the "yes" part of your answer, would it be possible for controllers like yourself and your colleagues to raise at forums in your profession on why size ought to matter when it comes to VCA. The larger a MIL or civilian CTA area, the smaller the OCTA area for a pilot wanting to avoid CTR - hence they might intrude into “your” space. If you look at a Sydney VTC, the YSNW (and to an extent the YSRI area) space is not only disproportionate to the size of the map but IMHO, ridiculously large. Their practice of grabbing R space unnecessarily whenever CTR is active is also odious. On the "no" part of your answer, perhaps suggest Victor air spaces, education & literature, and finally fines for repeat wrong doings?

If a low time, interstate or overseas pilot flying a meandering route from say YPEC to YMRY to take in the beauty of the place, like Kangaroo Valley, Hawkesbury, Warragambah, etc there is a disproportionate lot of R and CTR that can cause problems for the inexperienced.

It is a Defence issue to explain & justify military airspace lateral and vertical limits.

A corollary to your sentence would be "It is a civilian issue to approve Defence's actions". DSD and the Chiefs stomping on the head of Joel Fitzgibbon is an anomaly. Thru Australia’s history the uniforms are always controlled by the civilian. However, you might see it differently.

The issue at hand then becomes, C-change, is how we can overcome a situation where a group of unreasonable people using the 'safety and defence of the realm is at stake' argument is overcome by a group of reasonable people in streamlining and harmonising CTA airspace to further reduce VCA.

[Clearedtoreenter]

If a low time, interstate or overseas pilot flying a meandering route from say YPEC to YMRY to take in the beauty of the place, like Kangaroo Valley, Hawkesbury, Warragambah, etc there is a disproportionate lot of R and CTR that can cause problems for the inexperienced.

I agree these areas are far too large and complicated to navigate around easily but I've rarely found it difficult to get a clearance to transit either Richmond or Nowra. Williamtown can be a bit stroppy. Getting a clearance is great way to aviod a VCA.

[werbil]

It's not just the boundaries that cause problems its also the operating hours of the part time towers and lack of ATIS on VHF.

YBHM is a classic example. The tower hours change everytime the airlines change their schedules. The tower closes for lunch, and sometimes for a second break during the day. The only ATIS is on the VOR frequency, yet nearly half the local commerical aircraft that are the most frequent users of the zone don't have a NAV receiver. When the tower is closed a different frequency is used for the CTAF. The AFRU is not triggered in a number of sectors until you are well in the area that the zone covers. Reading NOTAMS in the morning is no guarantee either - on occassions the tower stays open if there are a number of jets holding due weather.

If I can't check the ATIS I try and call the tower a couple of times before entering the zone even if I expect it to be closed - this has saved me from a couple of VCA's. Even the majors have been caught out entering the runway without a clearance.

[C-change]

Bell Flyer,
You ask good questions and I'll attempt to answer them.

I can see your point about the size of R and CTR airspace but I can't agree on reducing them. I used to believe that R airspace was too big when I learn't to fly out of YHOX many years ago, prior to ATC. I couldn't see why they needed so much airspace to train but when I got into ATC years later, both Mil and civil, I changed my opinion. Not because I was brainwashed, I was just seeing the whole picture for the first time. 20Nm may seem a lot of room but for an Approach controller with a sequence of a BE76 with C130 etc, add a LJ35 or an F18 and the room runs out real quick. I have to keep 3 nm between them and some days with closing speeds of 100-250 kts. Thats just an arrival sequence, add to that a few departures, a couple of local instrument aircraft, plus the training areas and there isn't a lot left over. Again you may only hear two or three aircraft but could actually have a lot more operating on silent freq's nocom etc. Yes, there will also be days when you may transit and your it. Too many factors to list, WX, serviceablity, squadron delpoyed, etc etc. I hope I have made sense.

On the vistor on a joy flight, go for it. If they get a good brief, plan properly and do the right thing they will have a lovely time. If all else fails they can ask for help. I've had heaps of vistors do just this. Some have called way early because the have been unsure. No problem at all. Even had one last week who called just inside the boundary and said they were unfamiliar with the place. We vectored them to the place they wanted to be and let them continue with their joy flight. I can't speak for all units but it is very rare that a clearance is not available. If it isn't, its only because of safety, ie bombing, live firing etc.

You mentioned Victor 1 but that type of lane wouldn't work too well at the majority of places because the airspace within R is cut up into smaller training areas. It may be parachuting, low level nax ex, live firing, fast jets etc. Most military training involves low level ops who like to (or must) remain IFR. It becames a nightmare to even try to seperate. Also, having additional lanes etc adds to cockpit workload during the sortie. Its just another thing to make it more complex.

You mentioned forums and yes it does get discussed but we don't have a lot of say in the end. It's the pilots that tell us what they need and we have to make it happen. Thats a simple version but I think you'll understand.

One point you made was education and thats were things can improve. I'm not sure what is taught these days but I was lucky enough to have a very experienced instructor that got the message across about how important planning was. He made me sit down with a map and check every bit of R airspace plus CTA and then go away and read each rest area for activation times. That was before I rang briefing. I thought some days he was just being anal but I had a great airspace picture in my head before each departure. Technology, used properly, can make it even easier today.

So I hope I have answered your questions well enough, whilst writing only one copy of war and peace.

[Bell_Flyer]

Leo Tolstoy and VCA

C-change, your post is good and gives the ATC viewpoint. Now I’d like to give you a pilot’s perspective borne of about 2,000 take-offs and landings within the YSRI and YSNW CTA space, over a long period of time.

However, before we start, can we first agree that we will always separate facts from bureaucracy. For example, a fact is say, a regular joy flight hot air balloon taking paying passengers at the northern edge of the entire Sydney basin. A bureaucracy is for example, the need to scramble 2xF-18’s or the police Squirrels or Citation to intercept this “fast” moving balloon during APEC.

Let’s begin with 3 small examples so I don’t infringe on your Leo Tolstoy concerns with posts.

On a CAVOK day when a Sea King (Very slow, large, ugly and easily spottable from the air) helicopter is practicing IFR at YSNW with NO OTHER Mil traffic (because I phoned them and asked), why do they have to activate ALL R airspace in excess of 25-40 miles away from the airstrip? In fact, I know that whenever YSNW is active ALL R space is active regardless of traffic or whether bona fide mil spook exercises are going on. Why? Who gives them this right?

On a YSRI CAVOK day (when there are NO other traffic), when an oil drenched Caribou or a Globe Master is 15nm west and landing on runway 10 why is traffic which is 13 miles east and wanting to land at 11 miles east kept holding? What kind of aircraft needs a 28-mile separation for safety? Remember my earlier posts where pilots regularly fly under A380 and B747 at 500 AGL on V1 regardless of duty runway dir at YSSY with no communications to TOWER, Approach or Syd Terminal. The laws of physics is the same – uniform or no uniform. To add insult to injury, look at their own military spec’d 10nm arc for their extended centreline for NDB final approach course. I fly in the USA and point out to you that B-52's and C-5 Galaxies take less real estate than what our uniforms need.

Lastly, a dead soldier is flown from one of our battlefields in Afghanistan or Iraq into YSRI on a weekend. The only traffic is the funeral plane landing (I know this because YSRI told me). Why is R space activated along with CTA? Remember, in this discussion, I ask for a separation of facts versus bureaucracy.

C-change, if a police patrol car follows you for 500 miles on the road there’s a good chance you will get a traffic infringement ticket. When CTA and R space is so big, a low time pilot or visitor will one day run into it. Pure and simple. We need a discipline to control size of Mil CTA and their practice of grabbing unreasonably R space. For this to work we need civilian control over our uniforms.

Oh oh, I’ve gone into Anna Karenina as well as finishing War and Peace – but they are both worthwhile readings – especially your last post.

[CaptainMidnight]

why do they have to activate ALL R airspace in excess of 25-40 miles away from the airstrip?

On the assumption you are referring to the restricted airspace east of NW, those areas are activated for Navy activity including firing and shore gunnery.

There may or may not be aircraft involved in the exercises - often not. NW ATC are usually not involved with those restricted areas, they are managed by Maritime HQ in SY.

[C-change]

BF,
I'll try again but I feel that you already have your veiws and they are rock solid and not about to change. Thats fine, we're all entitled to our opinions.

why do they have to activate ALL R airspace in excess of 25-40 miles away from the airstrip?

In regards to NW, as Capt Midnight pointed out, the airspace east of NW is controlled by Navy and ATC has nothing to do with it, including activation, control or separation. The same thing happens west of TVL and that airspace is controlled by Army, not ATC. There are other examples around the country also and these are all primarily weapons ranges.

In regards to RI, I cannot help on that one, I have never worked there as an ATC. Some of the others you have mentioned do exactly what you are describing ie only the CTR is activated for a departure or an arrival. This practice is usually only done on weekends or for out of hours moves. The reason that all R airsapce is activated say, Mon - Fri 0800-2300, is because ATC cannot project the flying and airspace requirements of the local squadrons. It is impossible. If we activated it bit by bit, it would be constantly changing. Too many variables. Taking your seaking example, it may have had several test flights in the circuit before being released as serviceable, to go and conduct the ILS. If I had to activate that extra airspace based on the servicability of the aircraft, it would be on and off, all day and thats only one aircraft. How can others expect to have any idea of what airspace is active or not. That would increase VCA's even more and make airspace even more complex.

Another point on airspace again, there are large portions of AMB and NWA R areas that are not activated very often at all, based on exactly what you're saying. The old A4 airspace South of NWA (R422) is hardly ever activated. The airspace above NWA FL130 to FL300 is released every day to Melb centre. The same happens West of AMB between 43 Nm to 120 Nm, F130-F600. It is there if required but rather than have fast areas active, they are deactivated or released every day.

On Victor 1, it works because the IFR aircraft arriving from the East of Syd are not at 1000', IFR and travelling at 350kts all the way home. The arrivals into Syd fly the same profile every day and the blue lines marking CTA are always active. Why, because AsA cannot possibly predict traffic to the point were they can reduce, deactivate airspace, based on traffic density.

if a police patrol car follows you for 500 miles on the road there’s a good chance you will get a traffic infringement ticket

Only if you break the law.

We need a discipline to control size of Mil CTA and their practice of grabbing unreasonably R space. For this to work we need civilian control over our uniforms.

We already do. The elected Govn. of the day has full control over the Military. The minister tells the Chief and he tells the troops what to do. At the end of the day, in regards to airspcae, it is the pilots of the nation that determine airspace, not ATC.

You may not think so, but I can see your point of view, I just don't agree on all your points. I guess we will have to "agree to disagree" but I hope I have provided some answers anyway.

[topdrop]

Must be the weekend for them. I've submitted ESIRs for 3 VCAs in two shifts.

[LeadSled]

Bell Flyer,
You can answer some of your own questions about size of "CTA" by looking at some US or UK (just as two examples) of military zones. You will be surprised how small they are, compared to Australia --- generally 5sm (US) or 5nm (RAF/NATO) radiuus, with an extension to 10 miles (dogbone) around an instrument approach, height to 3000ft, or 1500/3000 for the dogbone.

Likewise for civil CTA like YSSY. Download a copy of the London TMA, and see how small London EGLL or EGKK is compared to the CTA around YSSY.

Last time I looked, there were something like eight airfields around Los Angeles KLAX, in an area roughly comparable to the YSSY zone. Several of them, including on only aboy 1.5 nm from the threshold of KLAX 25L, have an ILS.

Further, outside Australia, various "controlled airspace) boundaries at low level tend to be regular shapes, making navigation around much easier, all this ignoring the fact that most places I fly outside Australia, particularly US and Canada, "flying around the edges" simply doesn't happen, as clearances are readily available, if needed at all. In fact, in US there is very little G airspace, most airspace outside terminal areas, up to 18,000, is E - transparent to VFR. Class D towers operate as true ICAO Class D, with VFR GA equal rights with everybody else, not the quasi/semi C with IFR preference, as in Australia,

In places like KLAX, there are simple lanes and procedures for VFR to fly right over the top. Excepting the occassional space launch from the Cape, or Vandenberg, Homeland Security limitations etc., you can fly VFR with no clearance, the length of the US east or west coast, H24/365, --without a clearance--, not something you can do in Australia.

Given our massive military aviation activity, compared to US or UK, I guess we need such huge areas. Last time I looked, there was more R airspace attached to Willi and Nowra, than the whole of the US.

Indeed, a summary of the military approach here, as quoted to me by a then senior RAAF officer was: "We won WW11, it all belongs to us". Sadly the legislation supports this, unlike the US/UK and many other western countries, where civil gets priority or it is even Stevens.

Bottom line, does this make midairs in Oz more unlikely ---- Sadly, an examination of like with like shows a slightly higher incidence of midairs and near hits here, than US.

Incidently, it is over ten years since Australia agreed to comply with sundry international treaties, and cease "publishing" purported R and P areas in international airspace, and convert them the the conventional/ ICAO compliant "warning" areas, but Australia has never complied.

Tootle pip!!

[Jabawocky]

Lead Sled

DBTW and I have discussed this exact problem of R in places like Willy on another thread.

I even recall much abuse on here some 4 or 5 years ago with the NAS and the issue of VFR lanes up and down the US coast.

Why are we so backward then? What does it take to change it?

[C-change]

Why are we so backward then?

Who is this question directed at, Willy ATC or Defence ATC as whole?



Well done to those that turned a thread about incompetent GA pilots into one about Mil airspace.