PPL Instructors - Myth or Eventuality?
OK all, take a deep breath and think this through.
IT IS A REALLY STUPID IDEA!
On the one hand we rabbit on about the lack of experienced career pilots in GA - and then some bunny proposes something that undermines GA as a career even more.
A CPL is the basic entry level qualification to a professional career as a pilot.
If you want to enhance your basic flying skills and discipline - do a CPL! I don't care how experienced a PPL you are. Don't do it with some baby faced 250 hr Grade 3 - go seek out one of the multi-thousand hour Grade 1 Instructors that you might actually learn something from.
If you are a PPL and you want to instruct - do a CPL and an Instructors rating.
Lobbying to facilitate experienced CPLs gaining an Instructors Rating makes more sense to me than allowing PPLs to instruct.
I haven't looked at it for a few years, but you used to me able to do a C-Cat in NZ in about half the time required for a Grade 3 in Oz. Having flown in both countries, I haven't noticed any difference in flying standards.
If you want to be a PPL Instructor - go join RAA!
Dr
PS: I was a 1000+ hr, aerobatic endorsed, PPL before I did my CPL and Intructors rating! I am a far better pilot for having undertaken CPL training!
PPS: I wonder how many CPLs think it is a good idea for PPLs to become instructors? Always seems to be the case that it is the people who dont hold the qualification who push to have the standards reduced!
IT IS A REALLY STUPID IDEA!
On the one hand we rabbit on about the lack of experienced career pilots in GA - and then some bunny proposes something that undermines GA as a career even more.
A CPL is the basic entry level qualification to a professional career as a pilot.
If you want to enhance your basic flying skills and discipline - do a CPL! I don't care how experienced a PPL you are. Don't do it with some baby faced 250 hr Grade 3 - go seek out one of the multi-thousand hour Grade 1 Instructors that you might actually learn something from.
If you are a PPL and you want to instruct - do a CPL and an Instructors rating.
Lobbying to facilitate experienced CPLs gaining an Instructors Rating makes more sense to me than allowing PPLs to instruct.
I haven't looked at it for a few years, but you used to me able to do a C-Cat in NZ in about half the time required for a Grade 3 in Oz. Having flown in both countries, I haven't noticed any difference in flying standards.
If you want to be a PPL Instructor - go join RAA!
Dr
PS: I was a 1000+ hr, aerobatic endorsed, PPL before I did my CPL and Intructors rating! I am a far better pilot for having undertaken CPL training!
PPS: I wonder how many CPLs think it is a good idea for PPLs to become instructors? Always seems to be the case that it is the people who dont hold the qualification who push to have the standards reduced!
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 10th Feb 2009 at 02:42.
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If a PPL is ready to become an instructor then they will have >200 hours; and being an instructor requires a significantly greater knowledge than is in the PPL syllabus.
So a PPL who is appropriately experienced and knowledgeable to become an instructor should have zero problem passing the CPL theory exams and flight test.
What exactly is the problem with Instructors having to have a CPL ?
I'm completely with the Dr on this. Instructor should mean CPL.
So a PPL who is appropriately experienced and knowledgeable to become an instructor should have zero problem passing the CPL theory exams and flight test.
What exactly is the problem with Instructors having to have a CPL ?
I'm completely with the Dr on this. Instructor should mean CPL.
Last edited by Unhinged; 10th Feb 2009 at 01:37. Reason: clarity
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It is wrong to require a CPL by definition of the PPL (PRIVATE Pilot's Licence). Hence a PPL is NOT a commercial venture.
The RAA comment was an interesting one. You've got instructors out there teaching students to fly aircraft in exactly the same places and airspace of those PPL's out there, in similar aircraft and shortly up to 760 kg's. These instructors don't have a CPL and in many cases don't even have a PPL. What is the difference?
Come the CTA endorsement in a couple of months and you'll have PPL's with RAA instructor ratings giving CTA endorsements to RA Pilots giving them almost identical privelages to that of a PPL, with the only limitation being Day VFR and one passenger only.
I'm on the fence, however I'm just raising some valid points!
The RAA comment was an interesting one. You've got instructors out there teaching students to fly aircraft in exactly the same places and airspace of those PPL's out there, in similar aircraft and shortly up to 760 kg's. These instructors don't have a CPL and in many cases don't even have a PPL. What is the difference?
Come the CTA endorsement in a couple of months and you'll have PPL's with RAA instructor ratings giving CTA endorsements to RA Pilots giving them almost identical privelages to that of a PPL, with the only limitation being Day VFR and one passenger only.
I'm on the fence, however I'm just raising some valid points!
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I don't see what CPL has to offer. Honestly. I have done the theory (and passed the exams, under the old apparently no longer valid scheme prior to the multitude of 1990s changes). Yes the theory is helpful, but not a tie breaker.
Mint CPLs are simply not that well qualified to make a difference. In fact their experience levels are positively scary.
But someone asks why not.
1. Lack of good dedicated instructors at club level.
2. Class 1 Medical.
The RAA arguments are also very valid. GA must have access to a pool of local, stable, mature and dedicated instructors (like RAA has) or it will die.
Instructing is not some form of social security for pilots waiting for the RHS of a 737!!!!
Mind you, I would limit a PPL instructor to 'basic' stuff like 'simple' aircraft (max 4 seat, fixed gear and prop) and insist on 250+ hours to get away from the problems associated with mint CPLs.
Mint CPLs are simply not that well qualified to make a difference. In fact their experience levels are positively scary.
But someone asks why not.
1. Lack of good dedicated instructors at club level.
2. Class 1 Medical.
The RAA arguments are also very valid. GA must have access to a pool of local, stable, mature and dedicated instructors (like RAA has) or it will die.
Instructing is not some form of social security for pilots waiting for the RHS of a 737!!!!
Mind you, I would limit a PPL instructor to 'basic' stuff like 'simple' aircraft (max 4 seat, fixed gear and prop) and insist on 250+ hours to get away from the problems associated with mint CPLs.
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No offence intended, but why limit it?
RA-Aus used to be limited, but now have high speed, low speed, retract, CSU, low level, formation and tailwheel to name a few. Their instructors don't have PPL as a rule...... the only requirement for a PPL in RA-Aus is to become a Senior Instructor so by default the CFI has a PPL. He will then teach for and issue a CTA rating under the privelages of his/her PPL.
Fully agree on the 250+ hours and in some cases that is probably not quite enough.
RA-Aus used to be limited, but now have high speed, low speed, retract, CSU, low level, formation and tailwheel to name a few. Their instructors don't have PPL as a rule...... the only requirement for a PPL in RA-Aus is to become a Senior Instructor so by default the CFI has a PPL. He will then teach for and issue a CTA rating under the privelages of his/her PPL.
Fully agree on the 250+ hours and in some cases that is probably not quite enough.
but why limit it?
If "experienced" PPLs are up for a bit of instructing, I am sure they would be able to handle a few scenics and some charter work! They gotta be a better bet than those baby faced, low time CPLs!
And why stop there?
Why not put "experienced" PPLs with PIFR in the right hand seat of RPT?
Hey, I have sat in the jump seat of a Dash 8 and watched the boys at work. Didn't look too hard to me!
Dr
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Why not put "experienced" PPLs with PIFR in the right hand seat of RPT?
But seriously, to me there is zero difference between RAA and GA except wieght. So, fo a simple aircraft I see no reason why PPL cant instruct. Why not charter, because that is fare paying passenger, not someone willingly engaging in a risk based sport.
The difference is clear.
Why not charter, because that is fare paying passenger, not someone willingly engaging in a risk based sport
The difference is equally clear!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 10th Feb 2009 at 05:40.
HANG ON A SECOND
Let's just stop pretending that 200 hours and a few exams is all you need to hold for a CPL.
A 200 hour CPL holder has been under constant coaching and supervision in a structured educational environment, absorbing the culture and values of a professional pilot throughout.
A 200 hour PPL holder has spent a minimum of 40 hours in that environment, and then spent (?) years doing (???) for the next 160 hours.
FTDK - Spot on. If you want to be taught by a PPL with all the "benefits" 
that brings, go do RAAus.
FTDK - spot on again, and that is exactly what's going to happen under the CASRs with RAAus pilots allowed to do "adventure flights" a la Australian Warbirds.
Funny that with AWAL they set a minimum of a CPL, yet with RAAus doing exactly the same thing with a member of the public just as "unsuspecting" there is only RAAus certificate required.
XXX - If instructing for a PPL is not a commercial venture, neither is instruction for a CPL or a Command Instrument rating. Instructing is the same, no matter what component or phase of the syllabus you are teaching. The only difference is that you need a more experienced and qualified instructor as you go higher up the ladder.
Mr Brewster - with all due respect, 50 hours would be labout 2 weeks work in a busy flying school. What possible benefit would 50 hours of circuit bashing or private flying confer upon an instructor candidate?
RAAus is all about reduced costs, reduced supervision, reduced regulation and increased freedom - and I am all for it and support it with $200 per year. However, those freedoms are created by stripping away several layers of safety control.
There MUST be a demarcation between "Sport" aviation and "the rest" - otherwise we are simply lowering the bar to the lowest common denominator
Let's just stop pretending that 200 hours and a few exams is all you need to hold for a CPL.
A 200 hour CPL holder has been under constant coaching and supervision in a structured educational environment, absorbing the culture and values of a professional pilot throughout.
A 200 hour PPL holder has spent a minimum of 40 hours in that environment, and then spent (?) years doing (???) for the next 160 hours.
Recreational aviation may be a "risk-based sport", but GA is not - or at least it should not be.
that brings, go do RAAus.
If "experienced" PPLs are up for a bit of instructing, I am sure they would be able to handle a few scenics and some charter work! They gotta be a better bet than those baby faced, low time CPLs!
Funny that with AWAL they set a minimum of a CPL, yet with RAAus doing exactly the same thing with a member of the public just as "unsuspecting" there is only RAAus certificate required.
It is wrong to require a CPL by definition of the PPL (PRIVATE Pilot's Licence). Hence a PPL is NOT a commercial venture.
and insist on 250+ hours to get away from the problems associated with mint CPLs.
RAAus is all about reduced costs, reduced supervision, reduced regulation and increased freedom - and I am all for it and support it with $200 per year. However, those freedoms are created by stripping away several layers of safety control.
There MUST be a demarcation between "Sport" aviation and "the rest" - otherwise we are simply lowering the bar to the lowest common denominator
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Still sitting on the fence trying to see both sides.
Is this not the case?
SPORT
RA-Aus
PRIVATE Pilot's Licence
NVFR
PIFR
etc
COMMERCIAL
CPL
ATPL
Is RA-Aus REALLY that risky, with ONE fataility in 2008 ?
Why is a sausage factory CPL from some foreign country any better than local native english speaking PPL with 200+ hours or REAL flying, often beyond the training area?
How can you possibly compare someone with a PPL for 5-10 years who has flown all over the place versus someone who got a CPL from Moorabbin? With over 1,000 hours of PPL flying, I can walk into a flying school, sit some exams and do a flight test, so why does a CPL make me that much more professional?
HLB - exactly - "The only difference is that you need a more experienced and qualified instructor as you go higher up the ladder."
- you've said it yourself, so why do you need a CPL for instructing for a PPL?
Remember that you still need to do a GA instructor rating for this - it's note like a PPL would just start teaching.
Is this not the case?
SPORT
RA-Aus
PRIVATE Pilot's Licence
NVFR
PIFR
etc
COMMERCIAL
CPL
ATPL
Is RA-Aus REALLY that risky, with ONE fataility in 2008 ?
Why is a sausage factory CPL from some foreign country any better than local native english speaking PPL with 200+ hours or REAL flying, often beyond the training area?
How can you possibly compare someone with a PPL for 5-10 years who has flown all over the place versus someone who got a CPL from Moorabbin? With over 1,000 hours of PPL flying, I can walk into a flying school, sit some exams and do a flight test, so why does a CPL make me that much more professional?
HLB - exactly - "The only difference is that you need a more experienced and qualified instructor as you go higher up the ladder."
- you've said it yourself, so why do you need a CPL for instructing for a PPL?
Remember that you still need to do a GA instructor rating for this - it's note like a PPL would just start teaching.
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With over 1,000 hours of PPL flying, I can walk into a flying school, sit some exams and do a flight test, so why does a CPL make me that much more professional?
Thank you Unhinged 
Dick Smith, in one of his attacks on professional pilots (remember all we do is read the paper with the autopilot on) pointed out that he had many more hours in more advanced types than that required for a CPL.
"I just haven't done the required exams" he said, or words to that effect.
VH-XXX it was only after 8 years as a CPL, once I had become a Chief Pilot responsible for the safety and standards of a charter organisation, that I truly appreciated the difference between a professionally trained, well supervised, developed pilot ... and the rabble of PPLs at an Aero Club.
So "you said it yourself" - get a CPL (I mean, it's ony a couple of exams isn't it?) and do the course.
No, in my opinion as a RAAus CFI, GA CFI and an ATPL, that is NOT the case. The fact that
you don't understand that simply underscores my point.
Dick Smith, in one of his attacks on professional pilots (remember all we do is read the paper with the autopilot on) pointed out that he had many more hours in more advanced types than that required for a CPL.
"I just haven't done the required exams" he said, or words to that effect.
VH-XXX it was only after 8 years as a CPL, once I had become a Chief Pilot responsible for the safety and standards of a charter organisation, that I truly appreciated the difference between a professionally trained, well supervised, developed pilot ... and the rabble of PPLs at an Aero Club.
With over 1,000 hours of PPL flying, I can walk into a flying school, sit some exams and do a flight test
SPORT
RA-Aus
PRIVATE Pilot's Licence
NVFR
PIFR
etc
COMMERCIAL
CPL
ATPL
RA-Aus
PRIVATE Pilot's Licence
NVFR
PIFR
etc
COMMERCIAL
CPL
ATPL
With over 1,000 hours of PPL flying
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Originally Posted by horatio leafblower
Let's just stop pretending that 200 hours and a few exams is all you need to hold for a CPL.
A 200 hour CPL holder has been under constant coaching and supervision in a structured educational environment, absorbing the culture and values of a professional pilot throughout.
A 200 hour PPL holder has spent a minimum of 40 hours in that environment, and then spent (?) years doing (???) for the next 160 hours.
A 200 hour CPL holder has been under constant coaching and supervision in a structured educational environment, absorbing the culture and values of a professional pilot throughout.
A 200 hour PPL holder has spent a minimum of 40 hours in that environment, and then spent (?) years doing (???) for the next 160 hours.
With 200 hrs, one must simply have enough hours in the right boxes, and pass the exams & flight test. I.e. your 200hr PPL holder is potentially a CPL, assuming he/she can perform on the day.
No pretending.
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Unhinged - "If it's so easy, then why exactly don't you do it ? At least then you'd have the answer to your question."
Because I can earn 5 times more than an average pilot in another industry, buy a plane and fly anywhere I want, whenever I want and not have to go where my passengers want and I don't have to complain about EBA's, old aircraft, dodgey pilots and CASA.
HLB - "So "you said it yourself" - get a CPL (I mean, it's ony a couple of exams isn't it?) and do the course."
- What course? I can walk in and to a flight test after completing my exams, I don't have to do a course.
Stuck in a rutt I tell you, everyone... can't think outside the square in which you work and live for fear that things will change.
Why is it that whenever RAA is mentioned certain people always seem to get upset?
MARK1234 - you are exactly on the money. With 200 hours, some exams and a flight test the PPL becomes a CPL. For those that need a "structured course" to feel fuzzy about your CPL, go right ahead.
Remember, you're still doing an instructor rating, it's not like the PPL can start instructing straight away if the rules were changed!
Because I can earn 5 times more than an average pilot in another industry, buy a plane and fly anywhere I want, whenever I want and not have to go where my passengers want and I don't have to complain about EBA's, old aircraft, dodgey pilots and CASA.
HLB - "So "you said it yourself" - get a CPL (I mean, it's ony a couple of exams isn't it?) and do the course."
- What course? I can walk in and to a flight test after completing my exams, I don't have to do a course.
Stuck in a rutt I tell you, everyone... can't think outside the square in which you work and live for fear that things will change.
Why is it that whenever RAA is mentioned certain people always seem to get upset?
MARK1234 - you are exactly on the money. With 200 hours, some exams and a flight test the PPL becomes a CPL. For those that need a "structured course" to feel fuzzy about your CPL, go right ahead.
Remember, you're still doing an instructor rating, it's not like the PPL can start instructing straight away if the rules were changed!
HLB - "So "you said it yourself" - get a CPL (I mean, it's ony a couple of exams isn't it?) and do the course."
- What course? I can walk in and to a flight test after completing my exams, I don't have to do a course.
- What course? I can walk in and to a flight test after completing my exams, I don't have to do a course.
Let me put this another way.
In 1996 I completed training as a Level 1 Ambulance Officer in WA and I was on the road with the Ambos for 12 months. I have many years experience in First Aid.
There is a shortage of Doctors in rural areas - by your logic, I should be able to work as a GP without holding a Medical degree, so long as I complete the Family Medical Practitioner registration program.
... Naturally, I couldn't do surgery, that's for a commercially trained medical practitioner
I say it again - I don't think you understand what you're advocating (and don't tell me again you're sitting on the fence. Funny how every time there is a thread here about lowering the standards, some people always come out in favour of it!
)
I don't know what type of leaves Horatio has been blowing but I never heard so much crap since GB junior told the world he knew Iraq had WMD.
What is the main difference between a PPL and CPL? A bit more involved theory of flight and systems (but not more than a LAME), a bit more flight training for accuracy ( but not more than CIR or aerobatic rating).
So on that scenario nobody should instruct anyone until they are first a LAME with a CIR and Aero rating!
Let's be honest the main opposition of the idea is those that think their livelyhood is threatened. That fine but say that ,not try and pretend PPL's could not do it just as well, if not better, if they have the experiance.
What is the main difference between a PPL and CPL? A bit more involved theory of flight and systems (but not more than a LAME), a bit more flight training for accuracy ( but not more than CIR or aerobatic rating).
So on that scenario nobody should instruct anyone until they are first a LAME with a CIR and Aero rating!
Let's be honest the main opposition of the idea is those that think their livelyhood is threatened. That fine but say that ,not try and pretend PPL's could not do it just as well, if not better, if they have the experiance.
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XXX, that's not a reason, it's an excuse. If it's so simple to get the CPL, instead of doing it to earn the poor rewards that you correctly point out, you can do it for the reason I originally did - to set my own higher standards.
BTW, even if you don't do any course, you still have to get the CFI's recommendation to do the test. At any school I know, that would involve a pre-licence test, including reviewing your knowledge and flight skills. I have yet to see a PPL holder walk in off the street able to pass that without some significant work.
tossas - which only shows that your LAME, CIR and aeros ratings either don't exist or were very cheaply won.
BTW, even if you don't do any course, you still have to get the CFI's recommendation to do the test. At any school I know, that would involve a pre-licence test, including reviewing your knowledge and flight skills. I have yet to see a PPL holder walk in off the street able to pass that without some significant work.
tossas - which only shows that your LAME, CIR and aeros ratings either don't exist or were very cheaply won.
Last edited by Unhinged; 10th Feb 2009 at 08:47. Reason: add something for mt
SPORT
RA-Aus
PRIVATE Pilot's Licence
NVFR
PIFR
etc
RA-Aus
PRIVATE Pilot's Licence
NVFR
PIFR
etc
Let's be honest the main opposition of the idea is those that think their livelyhood is threatened
I am totally opposed - and not even a tiny bit threatened!
Dr
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I'm happy to sit on the fence and discuss the Pro's and Con's of lowering standards, or maintaining existing ones in a healthy well-balanced and sensible discussion.
What the GA industry needs is lower cost alternatives without a compromise on safety and not the stuck-in-a-rut attitudes of those old fashioned aero-clubs and flying schools that force you to turn up in your blue pants, white shirt with gold bars because you "have" to have them because you're going to be a professional CPL now.
Until someone demonstrates a clear safety deficiency in the PPL instructor idea and not just stating that it looks like a bad idea personally, then PPL instructors will continue to look like a good idea.
Why hasn't CASA looked at this idea more closely? Probably because they don't have the time or resources.
Why don't I have a CPL? In my industry I have to do constant exams, in fact last year I clocked up 9 in total. If I had the time, I would.
What the GA industry needs is lower cost alternatives without a compromise on safety and not the stuck-in-a-rut attitudes of those old fashioned aero-clubs and flying schools that force you to turn up in your blue pants, white shirt with gold bars because you "have" to have them because you're going to be a professional CPL now.
Until someone demonstrates a clear safety deficiency in the PPL instructor idea and not just stating that it looks like a bad idea personally, then PPL instructors will continue to look like a good idea.
Why hasn't CASA looked at this idea more closely? Probably because they don't have the time or resources.
Why don't I have a CPL? In my industry I have to do constant exams, in fact last year I clocked up 9 in total. If I had the time, I would.
Until someone demonstrates a clear safety deficiency in the PPL instructor idea and not just stating that it looks like a bad idea personally, then PPL instructors will continue to look like a good idea.
Until someone demonstrates a clear safety equivalent for PPL instructing, it will continue to look like a bad idea.