Spitfire 'Crash' at Masterton
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair point Remoak, but a third of all Me109s were lost in accidents, and over half of all NZ P40's lost, I believe, were lost in non-combat accidents, just to name two examples.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Well it's an IRS nowdays, but the AHRS were fun.
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The spitfire was conspicuous by its absence at the Ardmore airshow yesterday and so was the MX2 aerobatic display. That aircraft had recently been put through a hangar door by its owner, the same individual who crashed the spit. Naah must be just bad luck eh, coincidence, because he's such a great pilot.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Well it's an IRS nowdays, but the AHRS were fun.
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AHRS, what aircraft did you fly in the display?
Not that television chap again is it?
When the Spit crashed at ardmore recently, there was a senior warbirds instructor in the rear seat. His advice to go around was ignored and his account now holds a fair bit of cred.
This highlights an issue, its ok for this guy to bend his toys, but what about other people? He has been selling joyrides in this thing.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there was a senior warbirds instructor in the rear seat. His advice to go around was ignored
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aus, or USA, or UK or EU, or possibly somehwere in Asia.
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#1AHARS
Quite agree about 3rd party injury etc. Perhaps remoak will get his true desire the unfortunate day an aircraft like this goes tits up into a kindergarten in a posh suburb. The consequences for warbird movement would be punitive and might well stop the operation of these magnificant beasts altogether in theis part of the world.
If CAA is happy for this guy to keep flying, considering the risk, then its all OK for the time being, after all they are the arbiters of Aviation Safety as far as I am aware, not remoak or some of the other prooninsh comentaters. (and very common some of them are)
Bluesky300, Hahahahah - loved that bit about the sizzling and spitting hot fat (head)
M14P - there are a few ag pilots that visit here (that I know of) and they have more heavy tailwheel time (in general) than any other discipline of pilots i would think. i only have 4k or so T/w as I do a lot of other stuff these days, but many are well over the 10k mark. Not up to remoak's standard of course but, hey, we just do what we can, very few of us are divinely annointed by the omniscience as that self professed leading authority on...... everything....so obviously is.
HD
Quite agree about 3rd party injury etc. Perhaps remoak will get his true desire the unfortunate day an aircraft like this goes tits up into a kindergarten in a posh suburb. The consequences for warbird movement would be punitive and might well stop the operation of these magnificant beasts altogether in theis part of the world.
If CAA is happy for this guy to keep flying, considering the risk, then its all OK for the time being, after all they are the arbiters of Aviation Safety as far as I am aware, not remoak or some of the other prooninsh comentaters. (and very common some of them are)
Bluesky300, Hahahahah - loved that bit about the sizzling and spitting hot fat (head)
M14P - there are a few ag pilots that visit here (that I know of) and they have more heavy tailwheel time (in general) than any other discipline of pilots i would think. i only have 4k or so T/w as I do a lot of other stuff these days, but many are well over the 10k mark. Not up to remoak's standard of course but, hey, we just do what we can, very few of us are divinely annointed by the omniscience as that self professed leading authority on...... everything....so obviously is.
HD
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HarleyD
Nobody wants to see warbirds stop flying... but I do want to see them stop crashing.
The only standard I have is that pilots fly safely and don't crash, and that they exercise airmanship. You obviously have a different view...
Nobody wants to see warbirds stop flying... but I do want to see them stop crashing.
Not up to remoak's standard of course
The only standard I have is that pilots fly safely and don't crash
So anyone who has bent one is in your frame eh remoak?
You must be that superior being we keep seeing on TV eh?
Never come close?
Never, ever, done something a bit less than kosher?
Ever thought that at a certain point you can't go around, and its better to get it on the deck a bit bent?
If you answer "no" to all the above I want to fly with you and you alone in the future 'cos that would mean we are bulletproof. Until reality strikes.........
Last edited by gupta; 7th Dec 2009 at 09:03. Reason: dyslexic spelling
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So anyone who has bent one is in your frame eh remoak?
And no, I've never bent or otherwise damaged an aircraft, and never pushed a bad situation (which is why I've never bent one). I'm guessing that most pilots fall into that category. In my case it's probably because 90% of my flying has been in the airlines, where such activity is discouraged.
Ever thought that at a certain point you can't go around, and its better to get it on the deck a bit bent?
I am real (BTW, ever flown in PNG?), not perfect - far from it - but I don't slag off people who make mistakes - to borrow a paraphrase, there are two types of people - those who have just made a mistake, & then there are those just about to........
I reserve my scorn for those who believe that they will NEVER do something wrong because they are better than the herd.
I reserve my scorn for those who believe that they will NEVER do something wrong because they are better than the herd.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Well it's an IRS nowdays, but the AHRS were fun.
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TINPIS
What does a senior warbirds instructor look like in Kiwi?
Really the issue here is about Mr DB's decision making process, he does a good aerobatic display and has proved beyond doubt that he has good hands, but thats not all that makes a good pilot. Right? He clearly, for some reason, perhaps a hazardous overconfidence or not able to take advice, makes poor decisions and doesn't know when to say "when".
Good pilots have both good hands and good judgement that includes decision making. Something that most professional pilots have figured out.
Though he is flying a WW2 aircraft, it isn't 1945 anymore and we have learn't some since then. Right?
He needs to get a grip on himself (not just a small part of his anatomy) and perhaps get a professional to demo his aircraft, or do some serious remedial training before he kills himself or some other poor innocent bystander.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aus, or USA, or UK or EU, or possibly somehwere in Asia.
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The only standard I have is that pilots fly safely and don't crash, and that they exercise airmanship."
remoac - That may be your standard
Mine is - that I fly safely and dont crash, and that I exersise airmanship.
I am also a Grade 1 Flight Instructor of 20 years and I do my best that to have students emulate these standards. teachiing sprogs to do things properly IS MY JOB. I am still trying to do it at a different level these days and I am amazed at the sometimes crap standard of even chief pilots at sizeable organizations, however I just do MY bit as well as I can and don't get on my high horse here and sh!t can this Spitfire guy and all other warbirders just cos they are doing what I think is wrong.
BTW does - "I spent some time in a spit" mean that you were hands on landing the thing=, or are you a black hander with strongly held views about how things SHOULD be done in the world according to remoac.
Get off your high horse mate, the world is a wonderful place, enjoy these fabulous aircraft while you can, and YES, they will all dissolve in a pile of whitish blue powder given enough time, if not completely rebuilt with modern materials (all the pommy ones will anyway, the seppos used far better manufacturing techniques and materials). get out and enjoy the sights and sounds of Merlins and Allisons and DB603's. don't lock them all up for "the future" whatever that is. enjoy your 'heritage" while you can.
Interesting that so many of the Bf 109's and Buchons have suffered landing accidents, they must all be flown by complete dills as well. I thought that nearly half of all 109 losses during WWII were take off and landing accidents by trained Luftwffe pilots. modern day losses are about the same it appears, so the "nobber pilot factor" is probably about the same.
Flown the 109/buchon as well have you remoac? Even I would be a bit nervous in one of them I'm thinking. that might be one to put in the shed once I had been around the block on it once or twice. I think this may never happen, so I will just let the rich guys fly them as they were obvoiusly meant to be flown, and let them pay for the repairs. I must say that they sound awesome, very different sound to the merlin in a spit (which is different to a merlin in a P51 etc etc )
It's a bit rich to criticise the few who are restoring these enormously expensive indulgences when in the post war period so many were just melted down for scrap metal. we should have put a few more of them in museums then, not stuck them outside RAF bases in the weather in order to expidite their demise. If it hadn't been for the "other" Battle of Britain in 1968 there would be bugger all spits left by now at all. thank these guys for getting these planes back in the air, they are doing more for the 'heritage value" than all the rivet counters and plane spotters put together
I still say - if these guys have the brass to get these data plates back in the air - good on them, they are very obviously not infallible, but neither am I rich enough to own one and fly it as perfectly as should be done, hahahaha
HD
Motorbike saying - Ride it, don't hide it
remoac - That may be your standard
Mine is - that I fly safely and dont crash, and that I exersise airmanship.
I am also a Grade 1 Flight Instructor of 20 years and I do my best that to have students emulate these standards. teachiing sprogs to do things properly IS MY JOB. I am still trying to do it at a different level these days and I am amazed at the sometimes crap standard of even chief pilots at sizeable organizations, however I just do MY bit as well as I can and don't get on my high horse here and sh!t can this Spitfire guy and all other warbirders just cos they are doing what I think is wrong.
BTW does - "I spent some time in a spit" mean that you were hands on landing the thing=, or are you a black hander with strongly held views about how things SHOULD be done in the world according to remoac.
Get off your high horse mate, the world is a wonderful place, enjoy these fabulous aircraft while you can, and YES, they will all dissolve in a pile of whitish blue powder given enough time, if not completely rebuilt with modern materials (all the pommy ones will anyway, the seppos used far better manufacturing techniques and materials). get out and enjoy the sights and sounds of Merlins and Allisons and DB603's. don't lock them all up for "the future" whatever that is. enjoy your 'heritage" while you can.
Interesting that so many of the Bf 109's and Buchons have suffered landing accidents, they must all be flown by complete dills as well. I thought that nearly half of all 109 losses during WWII were take off and landing accidents by trained Luftwffe pilots. modern day losses are about the same it appears, so the "nobber pilot factor" is probably about the same.
Flown the 109/buchon as well have you remoac? Even I would be a bit nervous in one of them I'm thinking. that might be one to put in the shed once I had been around the block on it once or twice. I think this may never happen, so I will just let the rich guys fly them as they were obvoiusly meant to be flown, and let them pay for the repairs. I must say that they sound awesome, very different sound to the merlin in a spit (which is different to a merlin in a P51 etc etc )
It's a bit rich to criticise the few who are restoring these enormously expensive indulgences when in the post war period so many were just melted down for scrap metal. we should have put a few more of them in museums then, not stuck them outside RAF bases in the weather in order to expidite their demise. If it hadn't been for the "other" Battle of Britain in 1968 there would be bugger all spits left by now at all. thank these guys for getting these planes back in the air, they are doing more for the 'heritage value" than all the rivet counters and plane spotters put together
I still say - if these guys have the brass to get these data plates back in the air - good on them, they are very obviously not infallible, but neither am I rich enough to own one and fly it as perfectly as should be done, hahahaha
HD
Motorbike saying - Ride it, don't hide it
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To clear up a couple of things, no I haven't flown a Spit, but I was sitting in the back with a guy who flew them in the war (amongst other types, notably Mosquitos). It was a "thank you" flight for helping out with some other warbird flying I was doing for the film "Memphis Belle" back in 1988. The point is, that the guy I was flying with had a lot to say about how Spitfires should be flown, what the vices are, and how newbie pilots coped with them during WWII. What was illuminating to me, was his view that the aircraft was basically without vices (for it's era), and that the majority of modern accidents were down to mishandling or overconfidence, or, as he put it, ego.
This was about the same time that another rich enthusiast, Charles Church, had written himself off in a Spitfire while trying to "stretch the glide" back to Blackbushe following an engine failure. As my guy remarked, he had flown over several highly suitable paddocks to get back to the airport... but instead, he stalled and spun in just outside the airport perimeter. He had a PPL and not much experience.
If you look back over the Spitifire losses in the modern era, most if not all of them are down to really, really silly errors that you would probably be thoroughly ashamed of if you had made them.
Anyway, you clearly think that it is fine to trash these classics as long as you have the money to buy them, on the basis that they will eventually dissolve anyway. I see that as being a somewhat short-sighted and self-serving argument. But whatever floats your boat.
I have no issues with people with the requisite amount of money getting these aircraft flying, but I do have an issue with the idea that money=skill. That type of thinking, and the egos that go with it, are pretty common in the warbird world (which I have been a part of since the '80s). It goes with the territory. Look at all the recent warbird accidents in NZ and you see the same depressing thread running through all of them. At least wartime pilots had an excuse, they were thrust into these aircraft with the bare minimum of training and told to do a job. There are no such constraints on modern pilots.
You may not care if all these aircraft end up as smoking holes in the ground, but I do, and it has nothing at all to do with "high horses" as you put it. Maybe you will change your mind when they are all gone...
This was about the same time that another rich enthusiast, Charles Church, had written himself off in a Spitfire while trying to "stretch the glide" back to Blackbushe following an engine failure. As my guy remarked, he had flown over several highly suitable paddocks to get back to the airport... but instead, he stalled and spun in just outside the airport perimeter. He had a PPL and not much experience.
If you look back over the Spitifire losses in the modern era, most if not all of them are down to really, really silly errors that you would probably be thoroughly ashamed of if you had made them.
Anyway, you clearly think that it is fine to trash these classics as long as you have the money to buy them, on the basis that they will eventually dissolve anyway. I see that as being a somewhat short-sighted and self-serving argument. But whatever floats your boat.
I have no issues with people with the requisite amount of money getting these aircraft flying, but I do have an issue with the idea that money=skill. That type of thinking, and the egos that go with it, are pretty common in the warbird world (which I have been a part of since the '80s). It goes with the territory. Look at all the recent warbird accidents in NZ and you see the same depressing thread running through all of them. At least wartime pilots had an excuse, they were thrust into these aircraft with the bare minimum of training and told to do a job. There are no such constraints on modern pilots.
You may not care if all these aircraft end up as smoking holes in the ground, but I do, and it has nothing at all to do with "high horses" as you put it. Maybe you will change your mind when they are all gone...
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 64
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When the Spit crashed at ardmore recently, there was a senior warbirds instructor in the rear seat. His advice to go around was ignored and his account now holds a fair bit of cred.
http://www.caa.govt.nz/Weekly_Accide..._07_Dec_09.pdf
