Was the Nomad really that bad?
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AH the Nomad.
Back in the 80's I was flying both Nomads and the Twin Otter.
As I pilot I loved the Twotter and Nomad was an utter piece of Crap.
Yes it would land shorter than an Otter, but not by much, but it needed far more distance for Takeoff.
At anything near max weight whilst taxing the Nomad would lean in a turn and once straitened up it would stay leaned. You would have to turn the other way to get the wings level again.
EVERY landing on a muddy runway (a design feature) you would spend about 30 minutes cleaning the mud off the landing gear micro switches so they would work again.
At least once a day the chip light would go off and you would have to take it out, clean it and put it back in again. Every Nomad pilot had a grease stain on the right shoulder of his shirts!
In turbulence the fuselage would stay perfectly still and the control column would violently go into your stomach and then go into the instrument panel. No other aircraft I have flown does this.
On the N22 the seat was bolted in its most forward position to remain 5 degrees in front of the prop meaning once you where in there was no way of moving, especially if you left your wallet in your rear pocked. There was no way of removing it in flight! This also meant you could not move the ailerons full deflection with both hands remaining on the control column, your knees got in the road!
After landing on a bush strip, you would have to go down the cabin putting all the overhead panelling back in place.
The N22 had a design feature of automatic flap retraction from full flap to half flap or go-round position. Some designer thought this was a good idea. It was the most dangerous feature of the aircraft. In the tropics in gusty wind situations and wind sheer there was so much drag with full flaps that large power inputs where sometimes necessary resulting in the flaps coming up close to the ground.
When training you could not cycle the gear and the flaps more than 6 times in 30 minutes (limitation from memory) or you would burn out the electric motor driving it all.
I can go on but you get the idea.
In principle it was a good aircraft but it was still a prototype when it was produced and was never developed from prototype. It needed more development, and then produced, maybe the new one will get the development it needs, but I doubt it.
Back in the 80's I was flying both Nomads and the Twin Otter.
As I pilot I loved the Twotter and Nomad was an utter piece of Crap.
Yes it would land shorter than an Otter, but not by much, but it needed far more distance for Takeoff.
At anything near max weight whilst taxing the Nomad would lean in a turn and once straitened up it would stay leaned. You would have to turn the other way to get the wings level again.
EVERY landing on a muddy runway (a design feature) you would spend about 30 minutes cleaning the mud off the landing gear micro switches so they would work again.
At least once a day the chip light would go off and you would have to take it out, clean it and put it back in again. Every Nomad pilot had a grease stain on the right shoulder of his shirts!
In turbulence the fuselage would stay perfectly still and the control column would violently go into your stomach and then go into the instrument panel. No other aircraft I have flown does this.
On the N22 the seat was bolted in its most forward position to remain 5 degrees in front of the prop meaning once you where in there was no way of moving, especially if you left your wallet in your rear pocked. There was no way of removing it in flight! This also meant you could not move the ailerons full deflection with both hands remaining on the control column, your knees got in the road!
After landing on a bush strip, you would have to go down the cabin putting all the overhead panelling back in place.
The N22 had a design feature of automatic flap retraction from full flap to half flap or go-round position. Some designer thought this was a good idea. It was the most dangerous feature of the aircraft. In the tropics in gusty wind situations and wind sheer there was so much drag with full flaps that large power inputs where sometimes necessary resulting in the flaps coming up close to the ground.
When training you could not cycle the gear and the flaps more than 6 times in 30 minutes (limitation from memory) or you would burn out the electric motor driving it all.
I can go on but you get the idea.
In principle it was a good aircraft but it was still a prototype when it was produced and was never developed from prototype. It needed more development, and then produced, maybe the new one will get the development it needs, but I doubt it.
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jt..Do you remember the names of any of the test pilots at Avalon during those busy days?? I remember a hive of activity on at the STOL strips east of Avalon. When they got sick of them, they would shoot down to Connewarre or Grovedale for a change of scenery. Was the late and great G.M. on the Nomads or later??
The Nomad was built at Fishermen's bend and then trucked to Avalon for test flying?
Who was the agents for Nomad?
Didn't HC Sleigh or Forrester Stephens have a number of Nomads stored at Essendon in the mid 1980's?
Who was the agents for Nomad?
Didn't HC Sleigh or Forrester Stephens have a number of Nomads stored at Essendon in the mid 1980's?
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Assembled and flown at Avalon. All the last lot to go to the army had zero time airframes and had been refitted with efis. When they got rid of them most had less than 500 TT.
nomad test pilots
Pearce, Furse (on loan from ARDU) Reddel, Production pilot whose name escapes me, McGhie and Marsden plus one other (on loan from AA) Trease, Various Cameos from Walton and what's his face from Lillydale, Demo pilot John Mellors, Furse (again) from DOT/DCA, Gil Moore, Ron Hack, Brian Robinson. Need to dig out logbook .... hmm maybe best not
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It needed more development, and then produced, maybe the new one will get the development it needs
Fair comment. The factory folk put more than a bit of effort into getting the Government nod to do just that without much success ...
Fair comment. The factory folk put more than a bit of effort into getting the Government nod to do just that without much success ...
Quite a talented chap, our George
But the numbers still came out wrong, and the straight floatplane was a couple of hundred pounds in TOW above predictions. The nose wheel in the wipline amphib floats ruined the lines and aerodynamics completely, and removed the three hundred pounds -such is the fickleness of it all. That was the trouble with designing for the OEI ceiling. A little bit of drag was worth a lot in TOW.
Serial 28 was to be the original floatplane, but only had the nose fittings (apparently the rest was going to be OJT at Wipline), but it was sold into west papua and stacked in bad weather. There was an attempt to convert three more to amphibs at wipaire, but I think only one was semi finished, and descended into some sort of legal fiasco. 83 still flies out of Florida and is maintained by "Thommo" who used to work at Avalon.
Serial 28 was to be the original floatplane, but only had the nose fittings (apparently the rest was going to be OJT at Wipline), but it was sold into west papua and stacked in bad weather. There was an attempt to convert three more to amphibs at wipaire, but I think only one was semi finished, and descended into some sort of legal fiasco. 83 still flies out of Florida and is maintained by "Thommo" who used to work at Avalon.
One of the amphibs got to Italy only to be blown up - someone said it was the mafia. Person who told me that had spent some brief time in jail in the USA - when questioned at the airport on the way out he said he'd bought some grass (apparently Kentucky lawn seed for his wife) and thought everyone should have a handgun.
Geoff Wood.
Hugh Hopkins.
Brin Haylock for a little while.
Production pilot whose name escapes me
what's his face from Lilydale
Brin Haylock for a little while.
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The N22 we had at Polynesian was intended to be a floatplane, all the doublers for reinforcing of the outer skin, plus other mods were in place, but it ended up just being a normal run of the mill N22. Carried everything from coffins from Niue to Rolls Royce darts to Pago to keep an HS748 in service in it. It was an aeroplane that did all that was asked of it, certainly did not like heavy handed drivers.
Silly Old Git
Not going into bat for the Nomad it was a bit of a klutzer, but ...
2dogs said...
Problematical
Never had it happen in 4 years or heard of it
Never heard of it. We operated into monsoon affected strips
My seat was fine, comfortable cabin once you got some forward speed 6'1" here. 5 hour tasks.
Your pilots removed diagnosed cleaned and replaced chip detectors?
No Nomad I've known does this. Moderate stick pumping on N22 yes.Stomach too big.
Use less flap on gusty approaches?
You would find it necessary to exceed these limitations for what operational reason?
2dogs said...
Yes it would land shorter than an Otter, but not by much, but it needed far more distance for Takeoff.
At anything near max weight whilst taxing the Nomad would lean in a turn and once straitened up it would stay leaned. You would have to turn the other way to get the wings level again.
EVERY landing on a muddy runway (a design feature) you would spend about 30 minutes cleaning the mud off the landing gear micro switches so they would work again.
On the N22 the seat was bolted in its most forward position to remain 5 degrees in front of the prop meaning once you where in there was no way of moving, especially if you left your wallet in your rear pocked. There was no way of removing it in flight! This also meant you could not move the ailerons full deflection with both hands remaining on the control column, your knees got in the road!
At least once a day the chip light would go off and you would have to take it out, clean it and put it back in again. Every Nomad pilot had a grease stain on the right shoulder of his shirts!
In turbulence the fuselage would stay perfectly still and the control column would violently go into your stomach and then go into the instrument panel. No other aircraft I have flown does this.
The N22 had a design feature of automatic flap retraction from full flap to half flap or go-round position. Some designer thought this was a good idea. It was the most dangerous feature of the aircraft. In the tropics in gusty wind situations and wind sheer there was so much drag with full flaps that large power inputs where sometimes necessary resulting in the flaps coming up close to the ground.
When training you could not cycle the gear and the flaps more than 6 times in 30 minutes (limitation from memory) or you would burn out the electric motor driving it all.
someone said it was the mafia.
Given who was reputed to be involved .... I like legal fiasco better, but I think another one of that three which Ben Wiplinger was building is half finished somewhere, but haven't tracked it down. It must be floatplanes because there were viscious rumours about Serial 83 in Florida as well and ... er flight plan irregularities.
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Spot on 2Dogs
Couldn't of said it better myself.
The Nomad almost required a walkin stick with the lean it had.
Then the fuel guages now they were another useless piece of equipment
installed in the Nomad for all the good they did.
Regards
The Dog
Couldn't of said it better myself.
The Nomad almost required a walkin stick with the lean it had.
Then the fuel guages now they were another useless piece of equipment
installed in the Nomad for all the good they did.
Regards
The Dog
I agree with Tinpis over his comments about the Nomad;
I flew 24s for a while, yes they had a tendency to lean over particularly with a good cross wind (if you had about 45 knots from the side it was a good lean) but all you had to do was point nose into wind and use the ailerons to level the old girl. Plus taxiing with significant wind around you had to use the ailerons just like they teach in your very first flying lesson - positioning ailerons on the ground (or has that been lost now?).
The seat was great, it is the only aircraft I have flown where I've been able to get low enough, and stretch my legs out (6' 4").
The chip detector was a problem years ago, but has been fixed with modifications to point now that a chip light comes on it does mean imminent engine failure.
Regards to the control feedback in turbulence, yes it does happen, the flight manual even says that it happens and is at its worst between 100 -120 knots. It even tells you that if you're flying at that speed range using 10 degree flap will reduce the amount of feedback - and it does!
For training we found leaving the gear and flap down did provide adequate performance degradation to see what the Nomad can do on one engine (mind you, the ones I did fly had the Enhanced B17s, and having 500hp a side did mean it could fly well on one engine and where I flew them we were 2500' AMSL and in summer having OAT around 30 degrees) so the landing gear limitations weren't a problem. (no limitation on the flap)
All in all they were a great aeroplane for what we used it for and made the Caravan look like a waste of money.
When I last flew the old VH-DHP (not registered as that anymore) she had just over 11,000 hours was such a beautifully balanced aircraft to fly and I do miss the old girls!
I flew 24s for a while, yes they had a tendency to lean over particularly with a good cross wind (if you had about 45 knots from the side it was a good lean) but all you had to do was point nose into wind and use the ailerons to level the old girl. Plus taxiing with significant wind around you had to use the ailerons just like they teach in your very first flying lesson - positioning ailerons on the ground (or has that been lost now?).
The seat was great, it is the only aircraft I have flown where I've been able to get low enough, and stretch my legs out (6' 4").
The chip detector was a problem years ago, but has been fixed with modifications to point now that a chip light comes on it does mean imminent engine failure.
Regards to the control feedback in turbulence, yes it does happen, the flight manual even says that it happens and is at its worst between 100 -120 knots. It even tells you that if you're flying at that speed range using 10 degree flap will reduce the amount of feedback - and it does!
For training we found leaving the gear and flap down did provide adequate performance degradation to see what the Nomad can do on one engine (mind you, the ones I did fly had the Enhanced B17s, and having 500hp a side did mean it could fly well on one engine and where I flew them we were 2500' AMSL and in summer having OAT around 30 degrees) so the landing gear limitations weren't a problem. (no limitation on the flap)
All in all they were a great aeroplane for what we used it for and made the Caravan look like a waste of money.
When I last flew the old VH-DHP (not registered as that anymore) she had just over 11,000 hours was such a beautifully balanced aircraft to fly and I do miss the old girls!
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empacher48, What do you mean were?? I thought they were still in service in that magnificant bit of unzud. have they been finally retired??
HD
HD
hush your mouth Harley Dave
DHPs close siblings (all Collins equipped ex NTAMS N24s) are still happily flying inzud The one I flew in even had the flight director still going strong. The nomad landing gear at least damping wise was one of the best ever designed. Just like lots of oleos with the right spring rate it got the leans (like most piper singles for instance), but you weren't left emulating skippy if you got the approach wrong. The design did put the N22 seat in the wrong place, but I think that can be traced back to the sloping frame and the military ejection requirement. roll on the rebirth
Sorry Harley I was using "were" as I don't fly them anymore. They are still going strong in NZ and will be for years to come.
That Collins gear in them has been fantastic and shows up all the modern stuff in terms of reliability!
That Collins gear in them has been fantastic and shows up all the modern stuff in terms of reliability!