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Was the Nomad really that bad?

Old 13th Mar 2016, 05:40
  #341 (permalink)  
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Yes, there's an N22 in the hangar at LTV
cirrus32 is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2016, 06:11
  #342 (permalink)  
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Nomad = GAF - Government Aircraft Factory.

The Bean Counter has the last say!

Original concept seemed far better. PT6',s 32 thou skins and standard tail from memory then $ tumbled and needed cutbacks.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 08:33
  #343 (permalink)  
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In broad terms, the Nomad's operational profile was as, obviously, a twin with exceptional short field performance in and out unprepared strips capable of delivering a couple of sections of equipped troops or substantial and bulky materiel. And that it did with aplomb ...the SASAR had no complaints with it(!).

AS to single engine performance, at MGTOW it struggled a bit but then is there any other aircraft in that class which doesn't(?).

'A crash near Tenterfield' .. as i said, in 1992/3 at Cheviot Hills near the town of Drake (Nth NSW) west of Casino and not far from Texas.

The assertion that aerodynamic flutter was responsible for the crash is complete nonsense. We were unable to positively ascribe a 100% certain cause however, we readily ruled out flutter causing airframe dismemberment because; 1) ALL of the airframe was at the same place (ie, no part of the aircraft came adrift prior to collision with the reentrant down which the aircraft collided and 2) this was a very low speed accident. So forget flutter.

The most likely cause was due to an engine fire/failure of #2 engine wrongly handled by the flying pilot (PNGDF) at very low level on a max-performance departure out of the field into which he (and the two other aircraft in the flight) had flown. Strong evidence for that finding was metallurgical evidence which indicated clearly that #2 engine was making some but much less than (appropriate) than #1 and that soot was found in places under the cowls which were otherwise untouched by the post-crash fire.

It was initially postulated that the Senior Instructor (the 'SI') seated in the right seat may have pulled #2 by way of test on departure by closing the RH low pressure cock or that he may have suffered a cardiac or cerebral infarct (he was a big man, after all) but I ruled those out in light of evidence that witness marks on the stops of the low pressure cock were definitely caused at impact being located on the opposite sides from where, in the test i ordered, they would have occurred if the cock's operating lever had been moved to the 'off' position prior to impact. Secondly, i led a lot of evidence from other QFIs (Qualified Flying Instructors) and line pilots who'd flown with the SI to the effect that that was not his practice.

Moreover, I had another aircraft adopt the deck angle which A303 would have adopted upon departure out of the strip and there was no way a RH seat occupant would have slump forward if incapacitated at that time.

As to control surface flutter assertions, i led evidence from a QFI and practicing aeronautical engineer who had been tasked to investigate quite a number of pilots' snags including reports of flutter which he was unable to replicate. [One snag alleged that the aircraft was unable to achieve VR (at Mt. Isa from memory); the aircraft was tested by the QFI/engineer and demonstrated to be complete rubbish. Likewise a concocted complaint that the control wheel "pumped" during cruise!]

During the Inquiry, i showed film of an N22 stabilator shaking markedly. Quite impressive except at the time, only one engine was operating and on full power at that .. of cause it shook!

During the A303 Inquiry, i also reviewed the aircraft which crashed when undergoing development flying under DSTO control when it lost its stabilator. Clearly the cause of that accident was due to a certain organization failing to inspect the aircraft before hand-over to DSTO, which would have detected a crack in the stabilator main spar for which there was an available, simple and effective repair scheme already on the shelf.

The Nomad was/is a good aircraft.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 08:36
  #344 (permalink)  
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Involve public servants AND bean-counters in a project? .. Any project??
You'll have to excuse me - I'm going to have to go outside for a few minutes.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 11:42
  #345 (permalink)  

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a twin with exceptional short field performance in and out unprepared strips
Working for Whittaker Air way back when, we used to take 1200 kg of freight into Lady Eliot Isl, 600 m, high water mark to high water mark. Fairly impressive I thought.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 11:47
  #346 (permalink)  
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Hello again, Greg

What assumptions were made in the design of the Nomad about the percentage of its TIS that would be spent in moderate and severe turbulence?
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 01:02
  #347 (permalink)  
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the GAF was also responsible for the wings coming off a Macchi killing a pilot in the early 1990s.
nope, suggest you do the research before you defame people.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 02:08
  #348 (permalink)  
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I'm not privy to the aircraft's initial design and test parameters along the lines you're citing however, given that the wings are fully strutted and that i know that an exceptionally well qualified pilot rolled one a few times in testing, I'd be confident that it was/is a really tough ship. It was certainly no pussy in and out of dreadful paddocks and the like.

Moreover, so far as i was able to establish during A303's Inquiry there were no reports from anywhere of any insults to the type's structural integrity, including ALL control surfaces.

With respect to certain people (many of whom i nevertheless regard well), their various complaints about the aircraft were proven to be confected for reasons i was never able to get to the bottom of. [Although I've always suspected that they were not wildly enthusiastic about the Nomad because they may have thought that it's inclusion in their log books might not have been particularly impressive to a prospective airline employer? But perhaps I'm speaking out of order ...]
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 04:57
  #349 (permalink)  
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Please feel free to correct my post with your facts. It has been 26 years.

And me blaming any young technician is almost analogous to holding a toddler guilty for any firearms offence. It is/was not them it is/was the system.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 07:38
  #350 (permalink)  
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The arrival of leased VH-ELN atWewak, early 1976.
The first Nomad into service - civil or military.
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Old 16th Mar 2016, 11:33
  #351 (permalink)  
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Thanks for that insight GregP.

I've always loved the Slomad. We made it...who could hate!

Seems to be plenty!!!

As much as the nickname of the Airvan to be Scarevan is amusing, its highly typical of the Australian way, which procedes in an orderly Fashion, and not limited to Aviation...

1. Design/produce something great
2. Slag the hell out of it because you can't do better.
3. Complain when the idea is sold overseas
4. Celebrate the demise of the company/product

The whole aussie attitude towards home grown products/idea's does my head in.

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Old 17th Mar 2016, 01:41
  #352 (permalink)  
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Jas - excellent point. Why do we do this in Australia?

Countries of similar or smaller size produce excellent aircraft and do so profitably.
Canada = Bombardier and Viking,
Switzerland = Pilatus,
Sweden = Saab.
The Czech 's are getting into what seems a great market with a smart product in the Evector.

With the demise of avgas and a massive market that never disappeared and is getting bigger (tourist operations, rough strip, third-world, and parcel express to small communities) there is plenty of money to be made with a rugged and practical product. Look at the success Kodiak has had and the Caravan just keeps on keeping on.

With some sound financial backing plus decent engines and tweaks of the troublesome components, the Nomad must be a great shortcut for any savvy producer to leap into the market without the hassle of initial design and certification.

Slick rebranding and a glossy 2020's livery would see this aircraft take up where it left off and do way, way more. Without hopeless government interference and that Aussie knock-everything-we-do mentality, there is no reason the Nomad couldn't enjoy a huge resurgence.
Al E. Vator is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2016, 02:00
  #353 (permalink)  
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Plus with the right paint-scheme I reckon she was a pretty cool looking beast.

Photos: GAF N-22B Nomad Aircraft Pictures |

Photos: GAF N-22B Nomad Aircraft Pictures |

Great Vis: Photos: GAF N-24A Nomad Aircraft Pictures |

Not a particularly flattering livery but a great photo: Photos: GAF N-24A Nomad Aircraft Pictures |
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Old 17th Mar 2016, 06:31
  #354 (permalink)  
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Great pix, Al.
So what are the Indians doing with it? I'm a bit out of date.
Anyway, Vic Walton told me it was a good'un and that was good enough for me.
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 08:54
  #355 (permalink)  
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So keep twin turboprop (garret 331) or fit a couple of fans off a VLJ?

Make it at 5699kg MTW machine too.
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 09:28
  #356 (permalink)  
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I'll give it to you straight, GregP: I don't think the ADF's use of the Nomad took proper account of the configuration, role and environment in which the ADF used the aircraft, compared with the design assumptions.

That's not to say it wasn't a great aircraft. But any great aircraft can be turned into something else if it's used in configurations, roles or environments that weren't taken account of in the original design assumptions and instructions for continuing airworthiness.
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 21:35
  #357 (permalink)  
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Jaz; As we used to say at HdH (and probably CAC and GAF efore) in regard to Australian product; who wants a posting to Fishermans Bend or Bankstown? If they buy overseas there is a lovely posting for a few years to St Louis, Seattle, Los Angeles, Toulouse or London and suchlike.
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Old 21st Mar 2016, 14:07
  #358 (permalink)  
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the nomad turbine installation, firewall forward, was the engine of choice for the turbine seawind.
cant have been all that bad.
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Old 22nd Mar 2016, 04:06
  #359 (permalink)  
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The Nomad

Lead Balloon, thank you for 'giving it to me straight'. And your qualification(s) for those remarks are??
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Old 22nd Mar 2016, 05:22
  #360 (permalink)  
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Zero qualifications and no knowledge, Greg. Just wild speculation that the original design and ICA were based on assumptions about the typical mission profile in which the aircraft would be engaged, and more wild speculation that the ADF actually engaged the aircraft in missions that involved much, much more TIS in turbulence and higher G manoeuvring (as a consequence of more low level operations) than was assumed in the design and ICA.

But as I say: just wild speculation.
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