Inverloch 337 Report
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Interesting read as you say,
Prehaps more time should be allocated to IF during the ppl training & also for BFR's.........
as common sense is not so common
Prehaps more time should be allocated to IF during the ppl training & also for BFR's.........
as common sense is not so common
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Im the first to admit I have never heard of the 180 degree back door procedure option when flying coastal. Then again I hope I would never put myself or loved ones in that position.
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The last time I flew VH-CHU (which I admit was a very long time ago), it had a reasonably good Cessna 400 series autopilot. The simplest thing for VFR pilots to do if they get into IFR, is turn on the autopilot and climb to a safe altitude!
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m the first to admit I have never heard of the 180 degree back door procedure option when flying coastal.
Happy to be corrected though.
I agree with that HH. In my view and while not condoning VFR flight into known non VMC ,if you do get caught unexpectantly, the best two things you can have to save you is an auto pilot and a GPS. The former to do the flying and the latter to tell you where you are and how to get away from it so you can descend safely over flat country or water.
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FTDK....
And why every VFR BFR should include some IF checking, not to encourage SIFR but to check them out, and also show its not as easy as it might seem.
HH.... Agreed and not sure if they had a G296 or similar to use, but in that scenario, engage the A/P and fly at 1000 off the coast and follow the map with the heading bug, and call ATC for help. Not likely to hit any Tall Ships, nor any IFR a/c either. Probably another few miles it was VMC again.
Of course if over steep rising country you had best hope you can outclimb any high density objects
.
Easy for us to say from the comfort of our longes, but that is exactly what I would be doing if I managed to get myself in that pickle.
J
And why every VFR BFR should include some IF checking, not to encourage SIFR but to check them out, and also show its not as easy as it might seem.HH.... Agreed and not sure if they had a G296 or similar to use, but in that scenario, engage the A/P and fly at 1000 off the coast and follow the map with the heading bug, and call ATC for help. Not likely to hit any Tall Ships, nor any IFR a/c either. Probably another few miles it was VMC again.
Of course if over steep rising country you had best hope you can outclimb any high density objects
.Easy for us to say from the comfort of our longes, but that is exactly what I would be doing if I managed to get myself in that pickle.
J
Hmmmmm! Interesting!
The FLIGHT ASSESSMENT FORM in Appendix C of that report says that for an IFR flight with a assessment score of "More than 15" the action should be "Don't go"!
I ran the numbers for a flight that I do regularly in the FTDK (eg Townsville-Toowoomba).
Total Score = 20
Oh dear!
Dr
The FLIGHT ASSESSMENT FORM in Appendix C of that report says that for an IFR flight with a assessment score of "More than 15" the action should be "Don't go"!
I ran the numbers for a flight that I do regularly in the FTDK (eg Townsville-Toowoomba).
Total Score = 20
Oh dear!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 6th Jan 2009 at 12:04.
Grandpa Aerotart
You wanna try applying app C to a typical bush sector in PNG...then do 10-20 sectors in a day, 6 days a week
The answers have always been the same...cubic gasoline and an escape route/plan b.
The first CP I ever worked for said to me on day 1...as soon as you lean forward in the seat and go turn around.
Within the context a private operations flown by a PPL holder it seems to me that the divide between pure VFR and highly desirous/requiring an IR is a performance issue.
VFR is the domain of lower performance home built aircraft, Tiger Moths,Piper Cubs, smaller Cessnas/Pipers. By the time you're talking C210/A36 let alone C337/C310/B55/B58 etc you're talking a serious 'going places' aeroplanes...should they be flown by non instrument rated pilots?
Clearly there are VERY few ways to stop a VFR PPL with sufficient funds buying any damn aircraft he wants..except insurance coverage.
It is becoming more common in the US and I cant see it not happening here sooner rather than later...that is a current IR being a requirement of coverage...or at least the premium delta being inordinately in favour of Instrument Rated pilots...sufficient to ensure the initial/recurrent IR training is WAY cheaper than the extra insurance premium. Annual documented proof of qualifications/currency required for renewal.
This would likely remove this class of aircraft further from the grasp of the average PPL renter but so what? Precious few, and fewer every year, of these aircraft are available on line anywhere these days anyway.
There could be no argument that this chap couldn't afford an IR. If he was rated and current would he have been scud running along a beach?
Even if he/she decided that was the only option...no IAL procedure at desto for instance...at least when it turned to terminal poo instead of trying a visual turn at dot feet with no horizon you go on the clocks, turn to a safe heading and climb out...and the skills exist to do that safely...as opposed to turning in over the beach and hitting a tree/hill/power lines/mobile phone tower...or the beach...a strip of sand/trees in low vis does not a horizon make...good one ATSB...again
The answers have always been the same...cubic gasoline and an escape route/plan b.
The first CP I ever worked for said to me on day 1...as soon as you lean forward in the seat and go
turn around.Within the context a private operations flown by a PPL holder it seems to me that the divide between pure VFR and highly desirous/requiring an IR is a performance issue.
VFR is the domain of lower performance home built aircraft, Tiger Moths,Piper Cubs, smaller Cessnas/Pipers. By the time you're talking C210/A36 let alone C337/C310/B55/B58 etc you're talking a serious 'going places' aeroplanes...should they be flown by non instrument rated pilots?
Clearly there are VERY few ways to stop a VFR PPL with sufficient funds buying any damn aircraft he wants..except insurance coverage.
It is becoming more common in the US and I cant see it not happening here sooner rather than later...that is a current IR being a requirement of coverage...or at least the premium delta being inordinately in favour of Instrument Rated pilots...sufficient to ensure the initial/recurrent IR training is WAY cheaper than the extra insurance premium. Annual documented proof of qualifications/currency required for renewal.
This would likely remove this class of aircraft further from the grasp of the average PPL renter but so what? Precious few, and fewer every year, of these aircraft are available on line anywhere these days anyway.
There could be no argument that this chap couldn't afford an IR. If he was rated and current would he have been scud running along a beach?
Even if he/she decided that was the only option...no IAL procedure at desto for instance...at least when it turned to terminal poo instead of trying a visual turn at dot feet with no horizon you go on the clocks, turn to a safe heading and climb out...and the skills exist to do that safely...as opposed to turning in over the beach and hitting a tree/hill/power lines/mobile phone tower...or the beach...a strip of sand/trees in low vis does not a horizon make...good one ATSB...again
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 6th Jan 2009 at 15:14.
'Chimba' some good thoughts there in yr post.
I notice in the report that the pilot was most likely out of whack with the W&B at T/off, this is an unhealthy sign that the PIC wasn't too concerned about rules & regs pertaining to the A/c limitations even before he got airborne, what about his own decision making (re WX) limitations? They too where no doubt questionable. Was it that he simply didn't know due lack of experience? Seems odd as he had endorsements for heavier A/C than the C337 & had several 1000's of hrs aeronautical experience. Don't forget we all have been in the same situation re experience levels, no one is born with experience.
I wonder if such airframes should only be allowed to be flown by IFR rated drivers, would this fix this type of situation? I doubt it. Often IFR drivers are tempted more so to 'go have a peek' than say a VFR driver. Obviously this is not the case every time but being IFRr rated doesn't guarentee anything. This guy simply shouldn't have alowed himself to be there in the first place, the burning question now is what lured a qualified licensed pilot albiet with low hrs on type but that was more a handling issue not a wx related decison making issue to not have an out & get suckered in?
We've seen this time & time again, can we all learn from such events? do we? Rarely sadly
Interesting reading just the same.
Wmk2
I notice in the report that the pilot was most likely out of whack with the W&B at T/off, this is an unhealthy sign that the PIC wasn't too concerned about rules & regs pertaining to the A/c limitations even before he got airborne, what about his own decision making (re WX) limitations? They too where no doubt questionable. Was it that he simply didn't know due lack of experience? Seems odd as he had endorsements for heavier A/C than the C337 & had several 1000's of hrs aeronautical experience. Don't forget we all have been in the same situation re experience levels, no one is born with experience.
I wonder if such airframes should only be allowed to be flown by IFR rated drivers, would this fix this type of situation? I doubt it. Often IFR drivers are tempted more so to 'go have a peek' than say a VFR driver. Obviously this is not the case every time but being IFRr rated doesn't guarentee anything. This guy simply shouldn't have alowed himself to be there in the first place, the burning question now is what lured a qualified licensed pilot albiet with low hrs on type but that was more a handling issue not a wx related decison making issue to not have an out & get suckered in?
We've seen this time & time again, can we all learn from such events? do we? Rarely sadly
Interesting reading just the same.
Wmk2
I agree with that Wally 2. I certainly would not like to see the type of aircraft a pilot could fly based on the licence or rating he held. After all many VFR pilots just don't need an IFR rating along with all the expense of staying current etc. I know of one well known aerobatic pilot who can fly the backsides off most of us who doesn't hold one for the above reason, not to mention the dozens of instructors in the same boat.
If that sort of thing started occuring what next? All IFR flights must be 2 crew? No passenger carrying IFR except high capacity RPT? It would never end.
The guy made a poor judgement with tragic consequences, we can all learn from this and hopefully not repeat it but at least he did that himself against the rules. Unlike the tragic fatality at 2RN where the pilots were following the procedure for entering a GAAP laid down by the regulators years ago and in my view unwittingly creating a dangerous situation just waiting to happen.
If that sort of thing started occuring what next? All IFR flights must be 2 crew? No passenger carrying IFR except high capacity RPT? It would never end.
The guy made a poor judgement with tragic consequences, we can all learn from this and hopefully not repeat it but at least he did that himself against the rules. Unlike the tragic fatality at 2RN where the pilots were following the procedure for entering a GAAP laid down by the regulators years ago and in my view unwittingly creating a dangerous situation just waiting to happen.
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One of my mates down in Oz has recently just passed his PPL and is now into his CPL studies and flying training. He did a CRM course with this mob last year and reckoned it was very good value. A lot of info on decision making and how to plan flights safely as a VFR pilot.
Got him thinking outside the "square", if you like.
Got him thinking outside the "square", if you like.
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After all many VFR pilots just don't need an IFR rating along with all the expense of staying current etc.
We're never going to prevent all preventable accidents because humans are far to good at being stupid.
What I find gets most people thinking is the possibility that they through their own actions may have to live knowing they've killed someone they love. Generally I find humans are more conserned about loved ones than they are about themselves, so I think it's a good way to get pilots (esp ppl holders that don't fly to oftern) to think about having extra training even if they don't think their likely to use it more of a just in case.
Would be interesting to see CASA run a tactful campain on the issue, prehaps going as far as to mail out info directly to the higer risk pilots (ppl day vfr's?) They could really hammer home the point of training & recurrent training to keep pilots family and friends safe.
'mostly' perhaps more training is needed for VFR drivers in the art of staying alive when caught in bad wx. Wouldn't hurt but the gray area there would be how much extra training in basic IFR skills would be suitable?
............................We're never going to prevent all preventable accidents because humans are far to good at being stupid.............
'danarcher' this is so true, this I see all too often
Wmk2
............................We're never going to prevent all preventable accidents because humans are far to good at being stupid.............
'danarcher' this is so true, this I see all too often
Wmk2
I think it is more than a few thousand dollars when you consider all of the costs for a rating that is rarely needed in most parts of the country providing your flying is private and you have the luxury of flying on the days you want to. Consider the initial rating as a starting point, then there is the need to fly IFR rated aircraft to use it which is extra cost again (if you can find one.) The need to stay current and the cost of doing the renewals etc. For a private pilot the cost becomes prohibitive and all you achieve is to drive people away from the industry.
I think there is a better way ie NVFR rating which gives you some extra training and the appreciation of the dangers of flying non VMC and hopefully prevents pilots from trying it, plus the NVFR is more useful to most PPL's anyway as it gets dark every day but not IMC every day.
Another good idea is to buy a flight sim program to run on your computer so you can practice. None of the above is intended to get pilots to go fly IFR but might just save their behinds if they should unexpectedly get caught in it.
I think there is a better way ie NVFR rating which gives you some extra training and the appreciation of the dangers of flying non VMC and hopefully prevents pilots from trying it, plus the NVFR is more useful to most PPL's anyway as it gets dark every day but not IMC every day.
Another good idea is to buy a flight sim program to run on your computer so you can practice. None of the above is intended to get pilots to go fly IFR but might just save their behinds if they should unexpectedly get caught in it.
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Why
Why is it that almost every time this unfortunate situation occurs that the gear and flap are firmly tucked up and the aircraft impacts at high speed?????
All of my peers have always taught me that in ANY situation pull the power levers back, conserves fuel, get approach flap out, and in some cases put the gear down. These three simple actions just open up a whole heap of extra options.
So to all the guys out there who feel inclined to push the envelope, when it turns to crap, slow down. You will be amazed how it helps. Also as someone stated above, if you are even thinking something is not right follow your gut feeling, retreat, and live to fly another day.
As I say, "there is too much beer left in the fridge". Don't waste it Live to drink it.
All of my peers have always taught me that in ANY situation pull the power levers back, conserves fuel, get approach flap out, and in some cases put the gear down. These three simple actions just open up a whole heap of extra options.
So to all the guys out there who feel inclined to push the envelope, when it turns to crap, slow down. You will be amazed how it helps. Also as someone stated above, if you are even thinking something is not right follow your gut feeling, retreat, and live to fly another day.
As I say, "there is too much beer left in the fridge". Don't waste it Live to drink it.
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mostlytossas, as you say it's more than a few thousand but what I was getting at, even $3k of IF experience (keeping in mind it doesn't have to be in a IFR cat A/C just a hood & instructor will do the job) is approx 12hrs in a 172 or simmilar which more than likely has the required instruments but isn't maintained in the IFR cat, most likely the 337 was like that, all the bells & whistles but not in IFR cat.
12hrs IF will give you a much better chance of living to tell the tale than the required 2hrs IF for the ppl.
Remember there is the option of the PIFR these days which only requires 20hr IF (off the top of my head) & you can add approaches you wish, eg just have a NDB or GPS etc. A lot of guys with CIR's that I know also have PIFR's because the recency requirements are nothing like that of the CIR so if they're not current on an approach with the CIR they can do the approach under the PIFR & get current for the CIR
12hrs IF will give you a much better chance of living to tell the tale than the required 2hrs IF for the ppl.
Remember there is the option of the PIFR these days which only requires 20hr IF (off the top of my head) & you can add approaches you wish, eg just have a NDB or GPS etc. A lot of guys with CIR's that I know also have PIFR's because the recency requirements are nothing like that of the CIR so if they're not current on an approach with the CIR they can do the approach under the PIFR & get current for the CIR
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Frustrating part about this crash was that aside from a small amount of seafog and cloud activity in that area the weather was perfect everywhere else. I was flying around nearby and was really surprised to hear that a plane was lost nearby in bad weather 
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So true XXX........... sure he went IMC and lost it, but in a very small time frame.
A/P and 1000' over water..........and pop out saying Geez what a dill I just was.
Slow down and the Vis out the window gets a whole heap better, also allows for better decission making process due less happening so fast. Able to use all available resources.
Wally, I am all for more training and practice, and I do it, but it may encourage some to start being too brave! I think best to equip folk with the skills to get out after a short oops rather than enough to encourage them further in. I know I have been into clag and turned around without fear of losing it...... but proceed head on I may not have been so happy.
J
A/P and 1000' over water..........and pop out saying Geez what a dill I just was.
Slow down and the Vis out the window gets a whole heap better, also allows for better decission making process due less happening so fast. Able to use all available resources.
Wally, I am all for more training and practice, and I do it, but it may encourage some to start being too brave! I think best to equip folk with the skills to get out after a short oops rather than enough to encourage them further in. I know I have been into clag and turned around without fear of losing it...... but proceed head on I may not have been so happy.
J