Merged: Aircraft midair in Bankstown area
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remove the risky practice of directing lots of aircraft to one point
Very disappointed to see your first post on this thread used to rehash tired self-serving justifications.
If you want to use tragedy to blow your own trumpet, how about starting by acknowledging the two people who went flying today expecting to come back ok, and didn't make it ? My heart goes out to their loved ones.
High traffic airports like Bankstown will always hold some degree of risk, I can remember one unfortunate fatal mid-air there in !973 involving a Navair Twin Commanche and a DH Dove which resulted in four fatalities, I was actually invited to go on the PA-39 after making enquiries about IFR training that morning, however I had other appointments in the afternoon and had to decline......"Fate is the Hunter"!!
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My heart goes out to their loved ones.
Why does everyone say this or "condolences..." everytime there is an accident...
Unless perhaps you happen to personally know those involved, to me these statements seem to be rather silly and meaningless.
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to me these statements seem to be rather silly and meaningless
To me, they are meaningful. I've lost friends in flying & other accidents. When I've been on the receiving end, it was somehow comforting to know that other people shared my pain. That's all.
Why does everyone say this or "condolences..." everytime there is an accident...
Do you think family members of victims read Pprune!
We are worse than the media. Rubber neckers and ambulance chasers, in for a good gossip!
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Ok, Unhinged, fiar enough, I can see your point there.
However why lambast Dick Smith for not immediately offering his 'condolences'?
After all you said yourself:
Dick might have an agenda, but so do the 'close all the damned airports' lobbyists, and I'll bet they wont wait until the bodies are cold before they start...
Capt Fathom, I strongly agree. Sometimes what I read on PPrune makes me cringe.
However why lambast Dick Smith for not immediately offering his 'condolences'?
After all you said yourself:
To you they are silly & meaningless, so don't say them.
Capt Fathom, I strongly agree. Sometimes what I read on PPrune makes me cringe.
Last edited by nick2007; 18th Dec 2008 at 10:04. Reason: Sometimes what I read on PPrune makes me cringe.
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ABC News tonight........
It's sad that some contributors in this thread have been argumentative and provocative when their energy could be better channeled into discussing better ways of entering Bankstown GAAP. I don't agree with Dick Smith all the time, but at least he attempts to focus the debate under his own name while anonymous others are downright rude, insulting and contradictory for the sake of it.
The two people who died today deserve better than that.
The head of a flight school which owns the plane that crashed in Sydney's west this morning says he has previously raised concerns about flight paths in the area with air traffic controllers.
Basair CEO David Trevelyan says he is surprised there have not been more accidents.
"I don't know what altitude this collision happened today, but I would assume it would be around about that area," he said.
"So you've got the aeroplanes at the one altitude, pointing in the one direction, going to the one place. I am surprised it has taken so long for a collision in that area."
Basair CEO David Trevelyan says he is surprised there have not been more accidents.
"I don't know what altitude this collision happened today, but I would assume it would be around about that area," he said.
"So you've got the aeroplanes at the one altitude, pointing in the one direction, going to the one place. I am surprised it has taken so long for a collision in that area."
The two people who died today deserve better than that.
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why lambast Dick Smith for not immediately offering his 'condolences'?
What I objected to, and still do, is that his first response to someone else's tragedy was to use it to promote his own controversial position.
It was inappropriate and insensitive
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I've looked at all you posts on this thread and you have not once expressed any form of condolence to the families of the deceased or any form of sympathy
and just as you are entitled to your tirade, Dick is entitled to voice his opinion. No, he is not always right, but is anyone on this forum?
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People while this accident today is tragic and sad for those directly affected it is not a condolence thread.
It is also not a thread to make any negative/slanderous/libelous posts about any of the people concerned.
Robust discussion of the issues by all means but keep self serving condolences sentiments to yourselves.
It is also not a thread to make any negative/slanderous/libelous posts about any of the people concerned.
Robust discussion of the issues by all means but keep self serving condolences sentiments to yourselves.
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From people who heard it happen, apparently Ken was as cool as always, and without a waver in his voice declared a mayday and advised the tower he would continue to Bankstown rather than try to check on the other aeroplane as he had concerns about the ongoing airworthiness of his own machine.
The smooth approach and landing that followed was the result of his enormous discipline, experience and ability. He deserves huge respect, and if I had to be involved in such an accident, he's the man I'd want next to me. It goes without saying that if avoiding action could have been taken, it would have been.
Clearly it was a tragic outcome, but without this man it may have been worse.
The smooth approach and landing that followed was the result of his enormous discipline, experience and ability. He deserves huge respect, and if I had to be involved in such an accident, he's the man I'd want next to me. It goes without saying that if avoiding action could have been taken, it would have been.
Clearly it was a tragic outcome, but without this man it may have been worse.
The only reason it landed safely was because Ken Andrews would have "taken over".
If there had been a 20-25 year old instructor flying that plane, they would probably have crashed too!
Ken has forgotten more than most of these young instructors know!
If there had been a 20-25 year old instructor flying that plane, they would probably have crashed too!
Ken has forgotten more than most of these young instructors know!
The fact of the matter is that regulations and procedures were set up by the concerned authority to make navigating via the lane and surrounding areas as safe and efficient as possible. I am sure they have taken a lot of things into consideration when setting up these reporting and tracking points. There is no reason why anyone should demand a revision of the procedures in view of this one incident.
Actually, I think there is at least one good reason, you might have seen it today? Round half 11 at TWRN? Christs sake people nearly hit each other at these reporting points EVERY DAY. The reality is that you have people coming from a huge variety of directions, all aiming for a single point in space. How can that be anything BUT 'as safe and efficient as possible'.
There is a reason places like Moorabin and Camden have a huge number of inbound reporting points.
CASA certainly has no explaining to do. They realised YSBK is a high-density area and designated the surrounding area as such. They have realased several instruction manuals and videos available free to download. It is up to the pilots to familiarise themselves with the procedures if they are not familiar with it. Even pilot who fly regularly into the area would do well to go thoroughly through the CASA publications on the GAAP procedures purely as a refresher.
I think I qualify as 'familiar' with the Bankstown procedures. You can watch all the bloody videos and read all the pretty pamphlets you want, if you've got 2/3/4/5 aircraft tracking towards one point in space, all day every day, you're going to have problems from time to time.
A good look out and listen out would have averted todays tragedy. Pilots should have their eyes peeled out on a CAVOK day like today, when increased traffic is to be expected.
eh? Listen out? You make the call at the reporting point, not before. Call me stupid but I'm fairly sure that if they hit each other at TWRN, there is a fairly good chance they got there at roughly the same time. Listen out wouldn't have helped, they would have tried to make their call at exactly the same time. Look out? Its not going to work 100% of the time, aircraft have blind spots. Low wing aircraft above and high wing aircraft below is about the best example you could concoct.
I do not agree with Dick's suggestion that more reporting points would ease the congestion and move traffic away from one single point.
Creating more reporting points would not move traffic away from a single point. Oh, absolutely. That makes perfect sense.
They whole idea is to get traffic to merge into one or two specific points where they can be expected to be found when in bound/outbound. Segregating traffic in a high density area adds to the problem becuase it calls for greater situational awareness. This is not always easy, especialy for trainee pilots who are already engrossed in other activities such as CLEAROF and navigation.
I don't even know where to start with this paragraph. WTF are you doing conducting a CLEAROFFS check at the bloody inbound point? Segregating traffic in a high density area is bad? Oh, silly me of course, we should jam them all even closer together! bleh!
I do not see any flaw in the current system expect that traffic merging into the lane from outside and departing the lane to enter ClassG pose some risk. This can be avoided by either restricting them to within the lane while transiting it so that they do not depart unless having flown it through, rather than be allowed to criss cross it, like you would in normal OCTA class G.
Its difficult to take seriously what you have to say when you construct a sentence like any of the above, I can barely make heads or tails of all that.
English , do you speak it?
Actually, I think there is at least one good reason, you might have seen it today? Round half 11 at TWRN? Christs sake people nearly hit each other at these reporting points EVERY DAY. The reality is that you have people coming from a huge variety of directions, all aiming for a single point in space. How can that be anything BUT 'as safe and efficient as possible'.
There is a reason places like Moorabin and Camden have a huge number of inbound reporting points.
CASA certainly has no explaining to do. They realised YSBK is a high-density area and designated the surrounding area as such. They have realased several instruction manuals and videos available free to download. It is up to the pilots to familiarise themselves with the procedures if they are not familiar with it. Even pilot who fly regularly into the area would do well to go thoroughly through the CASA publications on the GAAP procedures purely as a refresher.
I think I qualify as 'familiar' with the Bankstown procedures. You can watch all the bloody videos and read all the pretty pamphlets you want, if you've got 2/3/4/5 aircraft tracking towards one point in space, all day every day, you're going to have problems from time to time.
A good look out and listen out would have averted todays tragedy. Pilots should have their eyes peeled out on a CAVOK day like today, when increased traffic is to be expected.
eh? Listen out? You make the call at the reporting point, not before. Call me stupid but I'm fairly sure that if they hit each other at TWRN, there is a fairly good chance they got there at roughly the same time. Listen out wouldn't have helped, they would have tried to make their call at exactly the same time. Look out? Its not going to work 100% of the time, aircraft have blind spots. Low wing aircraft above and high wing aircraft below is about the best example you could concoct.
I do not agree with Dick's suggestion that more reporting points would ease the congestion and move traffic away from one single point.
Creating more reporting points would not move traffic away from a single point. Oh, absolutely. That makes perfect sense.
They whole idea is to get traffic to merge into one or two specific points where they can be expected to be found when in bound/outbound. Segregating traffic in a high density area adds to the problem becuase it calls for greater situational awareness. This is not always easy, especialy for trainee pilots who are already engrossed in other activities such as CLEAROF and navigation.
I don't even know where to start with this paragraph. WTF are you doing conducting a CLEAROFFS check at the bloody inbound point? Segregating traffic in a high density area is bad? Oh, silly me of course, we should jam them all even closer together! bleh!
I do not see any flaw in the current system expect that traffic merging into the lane from outside and departing the lane to enter ClassG pose some risk. This can be avoided by either restricting them to within the lane while transiting it so that they do not depart unless having flown it through, rather than be allowed to criss cross it, like you would in normal OCTA class G.
Its difficult to take seriously what you have to say when you construct a sentence like any of the above, I can barely make heads or tails of all that.
English , do you speak it?
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Condolences to the families of the victims of this event,
However, listening to ABC news on the topic, they called the Instructor "Ken Anderson" - The media is like chinese whispers.
However, listening to ABC news on the topic, they called the Instructor "Ken Anderson" - The media is like chinese whispers.
However, listening to ABC news on the topic, they called the Instructor "Ken Anderson" - The media is like chinese whispers
Open up your Syd VTC and have a look at it. It is already cluttered with control steps in close proximity, 2 GAAP aerodromes, several restricted airspaces, including Holsworthy just immediately south of GAAP CTR. Now where on earth do you want to accommodate extra reporting points. PSP and TWRN are not more than 7 NM apart anyway. Do you suggest we squeeze another one in between? I dont get it. More reporting points are a distraction.
Regarding CLEAROF, well I was taught by my instructor to do them regularly. Not to say that navigation/look out should take a back seat, but we are encouraged to CLEAROFS even when operating in the GAAP lane. Now if you have a problem with that why dont you take it up with my flying school in Cessnock?
Regarding CLEAROF, well I was taught by my instructor to do them regularly. Not to say that navigation/look out should take a back seat, but we are encouraged to CLEAROFS even when operating in the GAAP lane. Now if you have a problem with that why dont you take it up with my flying school in Cessnock?
Further to this, after trying again to decipher your drivel it seems you're now talking about the transit lane of entry. What exactly does the LOE have to do with the usefulness of inbound reporting points for a GAAP?
They whole idea is to get traffic to merge into one or two specific points where they can be expected to be found when in bound/outbound. Segregating traffic in a high density area adds to the problem becuase it calls for greater situational awareness. This is not always easy, especialy for trainee pilots who are already engrossed in other activities such as CLEAROF and navigation.
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.The only reason it landed safely was because Ken Andrews would have "taken over".
If there had been a 20-25 year old instructor flying that plane, they would probably have crashed too!
If there had been a 20-25 year old instructor flying that plane, they would probably have crashed too!
just because th instructor is only 20/30 yrs old, doesn't mean they dont know how to handle and emergency. but then again, i was fortunate enough to be taught by Brian Wetless,Jack Curtis and Wally Rudin.
though i still think an actual engine off simulated engine failure or 3 would make a big difference in ones ability to handle an actual failure. back then it was legal for CFI;s to turn an engine off in flight.
Sprechen Sie Englisch, wichser?
Answer the question. Do you know the degree of damage to the aircraft? Can you in any way justify your post as anything other than a moronic assumption? By the time I was 25 I had gone through 2 engine failures, 1 control cable failure and a throttle cable breakage in flight plus a spate of small insignificant things like ASI failures. My god I'm still here! Ultralights is still here too?
How improbable.
KA is a legend, the student is very lucky he was there and I sincerely hope no idiot in the media makes a deal about his age. But don't put down 90% of the instructing community as 'flips' because you don't know what you're talking about.
Mate.
Avicon: Works in the USA.
EDIT: This argument is pointless. I'll let more qualified people debate what is the best way to prevent this happening in future.
Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 18th Dec 2008 at 12:34.
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Hi All,
This news is really shocking for us in India who have done our training from Basair.
It is very tragic that this happened. Ken Andrews is really a legend. I am sure only with the help of his experience that he was able to pull himself and the life of the other pilot from the incident.
With the number of traffic that operates from bankstown it has always been difficult to maintain a safe watch out. Me myself had many close misses in the 1 year that i flew in bankstown.
Does anyone know the name of the two women who died?
This news is really shocking for us in India who have done our training from Basair.
It is very tragic that this happened. Ken Andrews is really a legend. I am sure only with the help of his experience that he was able to pull himself and the life of the other pilot from the incident.
With the number of traffic that operates from bankstown it has always been difficult to maintain a safe watch out. Me myself had many close misses in the 1 year that i flew in bankstown.
Does anyone know the name of the two women who died?