Merged: Willy ATCO's get 4 weeks holiday, meanwhile CAGRO At Newcastle saves the day!
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Ctaf(r)=g
Bloggs,
It will be a CTAF (R) but that is still Class G airspace. As far as I know Transponders are only required in A,C and E airspace in Aus, as per this
Has there been an instrument published to specifically require transponders be carried and operated in that airspace? If so where?
Dick,
That is positive news if true.
As to the criteria, there is now a published procedure requiring risk and cost/benefit analyses when deciding on Airspace classification. See the Australian Airspace Policy Statement 2007.
It will be a CTAF (R) but that is still Class G airspace. As far as I know Transponders are only required in A,C and E airspace in Aus, as per this
Has there been an instrument published to specifically require transponders be carried and operated in that airspace? If so where?
Dick,
That is positive news if true.
As to the criteria, there is now a published procedure requiring risk and cost/benefit analyses when deciding on Airspace classification. See the Australian Airspace Policy Statement 2007.
QSK, The difference is that the blue shirters will have a radar display and proper equipment- the system that was to come in had a CAGRO on the civilian side of the 'drome with no radar display.
By the way, the reason for the TRA was to bring in a mandatory transponder requirement.
By the way, the reason for the TRA was to bring in a mandatory transponder requirement.
Thread Starter
Hi Dick,
Ref;
"and then changed after I resigned so that only ex AsA or ex ADF employees could make money from them."
As an ex CAGRO as well as ex FSO, I feel that the criteria for personnel selection, was so that only 'suitably' qualified persons would be utilised to perform this responsible function.
During the course of my employ as a CAGRO, I did have a couple of 'wannabees' who wanted to have a look, but they were neither qualified nor, in my opinion, 'suitable'.
i.e. NIL Aviation qualifications and certainly not MET Observer qualified.
Ex AsA and ex ADF employees have these qualifications.
I mean, you'd want a competent service, wouldn't you?
And yes, I was paid for the job - and I earned it. An 11 hr day, solo.
I made MUCH more as an FSO....
Cheers.
Ref;
"and then changed after I resigned so that only ex AsA or ex ADF employees could make money from them."
As an ex CAGRO as well as ex FSO, I feel that the criteria for personnel selection, was so that only 'suitably' qualified persons would be utilised to perform this responsible function.
During the course of my employ as a CAGRO, I did have a couple of 'wannabees' who wanted to have a look, but they were neither qualified nor, in my opinion, 'suitable'.
i.e. NIL Aviation qualifications and certainly not MET Observer qualified.
Ex AsA and ex ADF employees have these qualifications.
I mean, you'd want a competent service, wouldn't you?
And yes, I was paid for the job - and I earned it. An 11 hr day, solo.
I made MUCH more as an FSO....
Cheers.
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 11th Dec 2008 at 12:27.
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CAGROs for Williamtown not Locals
How does Ambidji and CASA justify employing non local CAGROs at Williamtown particularly when the area of responsibility extends to 20nm?
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Why is this necessary at all? I flew down from PMQ earlier this year, everyone in Williamtown was in church I think cause it was Sunday, so no ATC, I made all the usual calls, resulting in appropriate ID and separation from RPT coming and going, everyone happy. What's so hard? Even if ACT, it is not rocket science to go coastal route, or is there an issue in getting clearance?
sc
btw:
CERTIFIED AIR/GROUND RADIO OPERATORS (CA/GRO)
Newcastle, NSW Australia, The Australian
AMBIDJI CERTIFIED AIR/GROUND RADIO OPERATORS CA/GRO Ambidji provides third party Certified Air/Ground Radio Services CA/GRS to Australian airport operators. Ambidji is seeking expressions of interest from former Flight Service or ATC officers to work as Certified Air/Ground Radio Operators CA/GRO on a contract basis at Newcastle Williamtown Airport.
sc
btw:
CERTIFIED AIR/GROUND RADIO OPERATORS (CA/GRO)
Newcastle, NSW Australia, The Australian
AMBIDJI CERTIFIED AIR/GROUND RADIO OPERATORS CA/GRO Ambidji provides third party Certified Air/Ground Radio Services CA/GRS to Australian airport operators. Ambidji is seeking expressions of interest from former Flight Service or ATC officers to work as Certified Air/Ground Radio Operators CA/GRO on a contract basis at Newcastle Williamtown Airport.
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Dick, I am fascinated by your simple trust that provision of TSAD radar will be a useful tool. Do you honestly expect AsA to approve its use by unqualified personnel? In my last few years at Mackay we were provided with a TSAD display, partly, I like to think, because of an incident I was personally involved in involving a breakdown of separation between an RPT aircraft and a private aircraft, an incident that would NEVER have occurred if TSAD had been available at the time.
In those few years it seemed that the main emphasis of the powers that be was to ensure that nobody used it for anything to do with separation without a specific radar control rating. Let me give you an example. I was involved in another incident involving two RPT acft taking avoiding action on final. The final blame was correctly sheeted home to me because I neglected to obtain a readback of a requirement to extend downwind, so I'm not trying to excuse myself from anything.
However, in the course of the investigation I was taken to task for using the TSAD as a tool of separation. Not in the incident concerned, but an earlier situation ten miles south where I had appplied vertical separation to the incoming RPT with an outbound helicopter until sighting had been achieved. Because I gave the RPT a position reference of the helicopter (12 o'clock, one mile passing left to right) I was apparently using the TSAD illegally. Oddly enough I was operating under the assumption that's exactly what the display was there for. Apparently not. It seems I was using it for separation. It was about that time I decided I had to get out.
In terms of an actual separation tool, we're not talking radar vectoring or anything else here, I'm talking functions as basic as observed opposite direction passing. In such a case we had to ask the Brisbane Centre controller, often an area controller with five minutes experience, to tell us what we as rated procedural approach controllers could plainly see for ourselves, that the two aircraft concerned had in fact passed. Time wasted, and utterly absurd. I've retired now and don't make a habit of visiting the tower but as far as I know this situation remains.
Now it's vaguely possible that we agree on something, a rare situation indeed, because I suspect you would see this as being a ludicrous state of a affairs as well. Perhaps you could lend your weight to something useful like having this limitation removed?
In the meantime, I'll be fascinated to hear what powers a non-ATC CAGRO will have in relation to a TSAD radar. I suspect the answer will be buggerall, in fact I'd be surprised if it is allowed to be switched on.
In those few years it seemed that the main emphasis of the powers that be was to ensure that nobody used it for anything to do with separation without a specific radar control rating. Let me give you an example. I was involved in another incident involving two RPT acft taking avoiding action on final. The final blame was correctly sheeted home to me because I neglected to obtain a readback of a requirement to extend downwind, so I'm not trying to excuse myself from anything.
However, in the course of the investigation I was taken to task for using the TSAD as a tool of separation. Not in the incident concerned, but an earlier situation ten miles south where I had appplied vertical separation to the incoming RPT with an outbound helicopter until sighting had been achieved. Because I gave the RPT a position reference of the helicopter (12 o'clock, one mile passing left to right) I was apparently using the TSAD illegally. Oddly enough I was operating under the assumption that's exactly what the display was there for. Apparently not. It seems I was using it for separation. It was about that time I decided I had to get out.
In terms of an actual separation tool, we're not talking radar vectoring or anything else here, I'm talking functions as basic as observed opposite direction passing. In such a case we had to ask the Brisbane Centre controller, often an area controller with five minutes experience, to tell us what we as rated procedural approach controllers could plainly see for ourselves, that the two aircraft concerned had in fact passed. Time wasted, and utterly absurd. I've retired now and don't make a habit of visiting the tower but as far as I know this situation remains.
Now it's vaguely possible that we agree on something, a rare situation indeed, because I suspect you would see this as being a ludicrous state of a affairs as well. Perhaps you could lend your weight to something useful like having this limitation removed?
In the meantime, I'll be fascinated to hear what powers a non-ATC CAGRO will have in relation to a TSAD radar. I suspect the answer will be buggerall, in fact I'd be surprised if it is allowed to be switched on.
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This is a typical example of knee jerking by this incompetent bunch of muppets.
I seems to me if the military are going to run the show, using the radar, as Dick is crowing about, then they might as well provide the full separation service.
The current NOTAM for YWLM says
"THIS AIRSPACE IS NOT CONTROLLED AIRSPACE...THEREFORE CLEARANCE TO ENTER AND OPERATE WITHIN THE AIRSPACE IS NOT REQUIRED."
and
"CONTROLLING AUTHORITY: NEWCASTLE AIRPORTS LIMITED"
That's got to be confusing.
I seems to me if the military are going to run the show, using the radar, as Dick is crowing about, then they might as well provide the full separation service.
The current NOTAM for YWLM says
"THIS AIRSPACE IS NOT CONTROLLED AIRSPACE...THEREFORE CLEARANCE TO ENTER AND OPERATE WITHIN THE AIRSPACE IS NOT REQUIRED."
and
"CONTROLLING AUTHORITY: NEWCASTLE AIRPORTS LIMITED"
That's got to be confusing.
Capn Bloggs,
The no tower scenario is being driven by airlines reducing cost. If they can get rid of the terminal charge they can increase their profits. Surely you understand that.
For example the safety study into Williamtown shows that to activate a D tower over certain periods would cost about $480,000 per year. Obviously, by not activating the tower the airlines save $480,000 and that money ends up in their bottom line as extra profits.
Of course, the problem is the extra chance of an accident but then they will all run for cover, blame someone else - the airline management will say that wasn’t their decision not to have the tower.
The no tower scenario is being driven by airlines reducing cost. If they can get rid of the terminal charge they can increase their profits. Surely you understand that.
For example the safety study into Williamtown shows that to activate a D tower over certain periods would cost about $480,000 per year. Obviously, by not activating the tower the airlines save $480,000 and that money ends up in their bottom line as extra profits.
Of course, the problem is the extra chance of an accident but then they will all run for cover, blame someone else - the airline management will say that wasn’t their decision not to have the tower.
Have to agree with you on this one Dick. The cost of the Tower is the reason the airlines don't insist on it. Airservices,CASA and the airlines are testing a 3rd worlds best practice system purely on the basis of cost and not for safety. The traffic volumes at Willy and at Avalon require a Tower but unfortunately, as aviation history has demonstrated, change only comes on the back of disaster. The funding of the Tower should not rest solely on the airlines however and should be shared between all the users i.e: the owners, the Federal Government, State Government,Councils and passengers and even Department of Defense.
Wait a minute!!!!
Are you guys telling me on a public forum that the ADF is going on holidays for 4 WEEKS?
Who in the hell is going to defend the country in case Indonesia decides that they want to send more refugees legally to our land.
There is only four Liberties left to scramble out of YSBK with pilots only speaking Indian and no valid shooters license.
God help Australia.... I better go to Bali for a holiday!
Who in the hell is going to defend the country in case Indonesia decides that they want to send more refugees legally to our land.
There is only four Liberties left to scramble out of YSBK with pilots only speaking Indian and no valid shooters license.
God help Australia.... I better go to Bali for a holiday!
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Let's not let facts get in the way of the story here. Last time I'm checked, the sign out the front of the airfield in question was 'RAAF Base Williamtown'. It is only really due to the military's good grace that civil aircraft are in fact able to land there and not down at Belmont (and an A320 down there would be interesting!!) The RAAF ATC members provide cover from 0600 to 2200 during weekdays - a 16 hour period each day, AND they provide CAGRS coverage on weekends. As I am pretty sure the Hornet flyboys don't work on weekends, the military ATC are covering things purely for the civilian traffic at these times. And yes, they are stretched like you wouldn't believe - with large leave bills racked up. So what sort of movements are they expecting over the next 4 weeks? On average, about 40 aircraft over the 16 hour period each day, give or take. That is ~2.5 movements an hour, hardly saturation with no military movements. And what was in place? The defence force (not CASA or AsA) had put a contract in place to provide the same service that they do currently on the weekends - just in a white shirt not a blue one - so that the RAAF ATCs could actually take a well earned break. So I imagine it was with great delight that they heard today that the minister had ordered them back to work over Christmas - and had they tuned in to Sunrise this morning would have been disgusted at the audacity of Dick Smith 'thanking' them for coming in from Christmas leave. I imagine the contract will still need to be paid out due to the late cancellation, and the families of the Air Traffic Officers will be happy that their loved ones are away AGAIN over Christmas. I bet they are happy when someone asks them why the Navy is taking 2 months off yet they are working right through!! The interview this morning really did remind me of Chicken Little - once again Dick, the sky is not falling and all the hysteria you create in the general population with your one sided arguments don't help the people actually trying to provide capability.
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goodkopp 
Dick
Believe it or not RAAF ATC is stretched to the absolute max. 130 or 150 Pers dosent matter it is not enough to provide all the services at joint user airfields plus all Mil controlled airfields. GND and ACD combined all over the place. People maxing out crew duty day after day. These people need there time off just like every perosn has earn't their Xmas break. But i'm sure they appreciate your thanks on behalf of peple travelling on jetstar/virgin who really dont know or care about how they get where they are going as long as they aren't late
.
Standard OPS (correct me if i'm wrong) is for Wily to revert to CTAF(R) when RAAF ATC close each day. It seems to me that you are getting more than has been otherwise available during standdown periods.
Dick i will begin with the following caveat. I am sure you have worked hard in the past to build your vast electronics and consumers goods empire (and thank Jack from your townsvile Store for his exceptional customer service) but perhaps you need to take the position of someone who isn't self funded and is working each day for a living trying to get by. 48 weeks per year. Not flying family and friends and grand kids along the coast for a joy ride. Some one working for half what they could get in Civvie street. And think about how you would feek about getting called back from your Xmas leave to appease objections of a minority.
Curious isn't it that no-one from J* of Virgin have objected to the safety implications. And surely they have the greatest amount to loose in the event of an incident..... reputation, compensation, government and regulator srcutiny????
10 standard drinks consumed
Just found this gem od Dick flyer website. How things change from your usual posts about bagging military ATC. Just goes to show you dont know what you want but as long as it agitats the status qou.
Dick
Believe it or not RAAF ATC is stretched to the absolute max. 130 or 150 Pers dosent matter it is not enough to provide all the services at joint user airfields plus all Mil controlled airfields. GND and ACD combined all over the place. People maxing out crew duty day after day. These people need there time off just like every perosn has earn't their Xmas break. But i'm sure they appreciate your thanks on behalf of peple travelling on jetstar/virgin who really dont know or care about how they get where they are going as long as they aren't late
. Standard OPS (correct me if i'm wrong) is for Wily to revert to CTAF(R) when RAAF ATC close each day. It seems to me that you are getting more than has been otherwise available during standdown periods.
Dick i will begin with the following caveat. I am sure you have worked hard in the past to build your vast electronics and consumers goods empire (and thank Jack from your townsvile Store for his exceptional customer service) but perhaps you need to take the position of someone who isn't self funded and is working each day for a living trying to get by. 48 weeks per year. Not flying family and friends and grand kids along the coast for a joy ride. Some one working for half what they could get in Civvie street. And think about how you would feek about getting called back from your Xmas leave to appease objections of a minority.
Curious isn't it that no-one from J* of Virgin have objected to the safety implications. And surely they have the greatest amount to loose in the event of an incident..... reputation, compensation, government and regulator srcutiny????
10 standard drinks consumed
The military will be there during the busy Christmas period and that's what we wanted."
"Only due to the miltary's good grace civil aircraft can land there"!!!
And I assume you also include the use of the airspace around it. Who do you think pays for it in the first place? Mug tax payer that's who. If the military want to demand and control great tracks of the Australian continent then they can staff it too and allow the owners of this same "airspace" use of it whenever operationally possible. Either that or hand it back to civil use and even reduce their holding to just a few nm like in most european countries. While it maybe unfortunate that some controllers have to work over Christmas....hello what do you think essential services do on civy street each and every year. I know working for the military has its drawbacks like generally lower wages but they get advantages too like free medical,subsidised housing,early pension age,no chance of redundancy in a recession and so on.
And I assume you also include the use of the airspace around it. Who do you think pays for it in the first place? Mug tax payer that's who. If the military want to demand and control great tracks of the Australian continent then they can staff it too and allow the owners of this same "airspace" use of it whenever operationally possible. Either that or hand it back to civil use and even reduce their holding to just a few nm like in most european countries. While it maybe unfortunate that some controllers have to work over Christmas....hello what do you think essential services do on civy street each and every year. I know working for the military has its drawbacks like generally lower wages but they get advantages too like free medical,subsidised housing,early pension age,no chance of redundancy in a recession and so on.
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Well said goodkoop
It's unbelievable that one man, an 'Aviation Activist' can cause someone like the Minister of Defence to cave in over this matter - what message does this send to the paid experts at CASA, Albanese etc. Does Dick have something over the Minister?
To quote Dick himself "I have not been Chairman of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA), nor responsible for aviation safety, for over nine years," said Dick Smith.
Crikey - Dick Smith: Please stop asking me about Qantas! - Dick Smith: Please stop asking me about Qantas!
So if thats the case butt out and let the real experts get on with it .
What you have done will probably lead to more blue shirt operators resigning due to cancelled leave and that just adds to the shortage - or is that the plan so that ASA can try to infiltrate defence bases?
It's unbelievable that one man, an 'Aviation Activist' can cause someone like the Minister of Defence to cave in over this matter - what message does this send to the paid experts at CASA, Albanese etc. Does Dick have something over the Minister?
To quote Dick himself "I have not been Chairman of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA), nor responsible for aviation safety, for over nine years," said Dick Smith.
Crikey - Dick Smith: Please stop asking me about Qantas! - Dick Smith: Please stop asking me about Qantas!
So if thats the case butt out and let the real experts get on with it .
What you have done will probably lead to more blue shirt operators resigning due to cancelled leave and that just adds to the shortage - or is that the plan so that ASA can try to infiltrate defence bases?
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Great News! - Two federal ministers have been pushed into a situation were they have acquiesced to a single individual with a better PR (spin) department than the DoD or CASA.
It's amazing to me that a few aussie flags on fake vegemite will buy you such political clout.
Dick,
I've got some issues with all of this.
Firstly, I doubt that the poor Willy controllers that just has their xmas leave cancelled, and are at home expaining to the family why they can't go home for xmas to see their family on the other side of the country, will find much comfort in your words from your website:
Are these the same controllers that you berated over the airways for not giving you a clearance (VFR transit), becasue they were separating you from an aircraft (IFR RPT) on final, as required by law?
Additionally, you continue to highlight your inability to grasp the concept of ATC qualifications:
That's the equivelant of saying:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, the captain has fallen ill from the fish. I know this is a 747, but has anyone on board got a PPL?"
Different locations and different control positions require different qualifications. It takes at least several weeks, if not months to qualify for each individual ATC position. The current situation with AsA and TIBA can attest to that.
I'm also a bit miffed by your contention that:
So you want ATC, and are not happy with a CAGRO? How is it then that you are now 'ecstatic' by the prospect of CAGRO with the assistance of a Radar display? The two are dramatically different.
You may well argue the greatest good for the greatest number has been achieved (short of actual ATS and not CAGRO) but can I remind you who the losers are. Military ATC who work at a military base (not joint user) being told to do a job, with no notice, that is realistically well below their qualifications and outside their job description, for no military purpose whatsoever. Additionally, they are being called in to replace appropriately qualified individuals that would have provided a appropriately endorsed service (CAGRO) in line with a CASA investigation into the situation.
It may cost only 43cents per passenger to pay for ATC over the christmas break and weekends when military are taking a well earned break (i.e. having a life), but that money will never see the pockets of the poor folks that are (currently) doing the work! There is no such thing as overtime, etc, for a military member. Add this to the locational instability and inequivalant pay to their civilian counterparts, is it any wonder that they are leaving in droves.
You stated that
and yet I don't hear of you fighting for every other CA/GRS operation in australia to have access to a radar dispay. What's with the lack of consistancy on this?
After watching the '25 years of holding a YWLM' thread from the sidelines this year, my guess is that you hve specifically targeted YWLM ATC in some form of payback. How close is that to the mark...honestly?
It's amazing to me that a few aussie flags on fake vegemite will buy you such political clout.
Dick,
I've got some issues with all of this.
Firstly, I doubt that the poor Willy controllers that just has their xmas leave cancelled, and are at home expaining to the family why they can't go home for xmas to see their family on the other side of the country, will find much comfort in your words from your website:
Special thanks to the Airforce Controllers who will be providing this service for Christmas.
Additionally, you continue to highlight your inability to grasp the concept of ATC qualifications:
I thought there were about 300 atc's in the RAAF.
Lets say 20 for Townsville and 50 for Darwin- wouldn't there be at least one available to work even part time at Williamtown?
Lets say 20 for Townsville and 50 for Darwin- wouldn't there be at least one available to work even part time at Williamtown?
"Ladies and Gentlemen, the captain has fallen ill from the fish. I know this is a 747, but has anyone on board got a PPL?"
Different locations and different control positions require different qualifications. It takes at least several weeks, if not months to qualify for each individual ATC position. The current situation with AsA and TIBA can attest to that.
I'm also a bit miffed by your contention that:
I don't want them to be released to do CAGRO work- I want ATC at 50,000 movement, 1 million PAX airports.
You may well argue the greatest good for the greatest number has been achieved (short of actual ATS and not CAGRO) but can I remind you who the losers are. Military ATC who work at a military base (not joint user) being told to do a job, with no notice, that is realistically well below their qualifications and outside their job description, for no military purpose whatsoever. Additionally, they are being called in to replace appropriately qualified individuals that would have provided a appropriately endorsed service (CAGRO) in line with a CASA investigation into the situation.
It may cost only 43cents per passenger to pay for ATC over the christmas break and weekends when military are taking a well earned break (i.e. having a life), but that money will never see the pockets of the poor folks that are (currently) doing the work! There is no such thing as overtime, etc, for a military member. Add this to the locational instability and inequivalant pay to their civilian counterparts, is it any wonder that they are leaving in droves.
You stated that
"Novocastrians are not stupid. They know that radar is one of the most important tools to ensure air safety."
After watching the '25 years of holding a YWLM' thread from the sidelines this year, my guess is that you hve specifically targeted YWLM ATC in some form of payback. How close is that to the mark...honestly?
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Leave Cancelled
I wonder if those that are happy that the RAAF will now provide CAGRS over Christmas, stopped and thought for a moment, that these people who were about to start their holidays TODAY, had their leave cancelled.
Just another great benefit of being a Defence Force member I guess. I'm glad its not me telling the family that they are not going home to see Nan and Pop for X-mas.
That means they will have to take leave some time next year. Probably wont be approved due to lack of staff after the next wave of Asa recruiting happens.
That means less staff, who are already tired, who didn't get a break at Christmas, will be even more tired when the RAAF traffic starts up again on Jan 12.
THATS REAL SAFE ISN'T IT !!!!!!!
You don't mind when its a war, natural disaster etc, or when given a bit more notice, but the day you start your leave, come on.
RAAF ATC, at an RAAF BASE (not joint user) is not an essential service on civy street.
Dont anyone complain next year when what's left of RAAF ATC, up and leave. People can only handle being shat on for so long.
Just another great benefit of being a Defence Force member I guess. I'm glad its not me telling the family that they are not going home to see Nan and Pop for X-mas.
That means they will have to take leave some time next year. Probably wont be approved due to lack of staff after the next wave of Asa recruiting happens.
That means less staff, who are already tired, who didn't get a break at Christmas, will be even more tired when the RAAF traffic starts up again on Jan 12.
THATS REAL SAFE ISN'T IT !!!!!!!
While it maybe unfortunate that some controllers have to work over Christmas....hello what do you think essential services do on civy street each and every year.
RAAF ATC, at an RAAF BASE (not joint user) is not an essential service on civy street.
Dont anyone complain next year when what's left of RAAF ATC, up and leave. People can only handle being shat on for so long.