Merged: Willy ATCO's get 4 weeks holiday, meanwhile CAGRO At Newcastle saves the day!

[Dick Smith]

Morno, Just a small point, the decision was made by the defence minister before I went on Sunrise. It was probably the factual statements I made on ABC radio Newcastle that swung the argument.

Here's a factual statement - no other country in the world has an airport with the traffic mix of Williamtown operating without ATC.

You may say "who cares" Well I do!

TRA's are for risky activities like airshows - not to protect airline passengers.

[max1]

I have been stating it will be a TRA during certain hours for a few days now.Do you lot read Notams?

When Canberra can't be covered due lack of ATCs they make it a TRA, they (CASA and ASA) obviously believe Williamtown falls under the same criteria as Canberra i.e. if we can't provide control services it justifies TRA 'status' due to traffic.

[ToA]

Congratulations Dick,
Of all the stupid things you’ve said and done over the years, this is the one that’s put you safely in the realm of Mr Men in my eyes, and energised me at least enough to enter the realm of “long time lurker, first time writer”.
You have to understand something, to Joe Public Australian you speak with authority and knowledge and when you say something about air travel safety in this country those people think that you’re speaking gospel truth. Unlike those of us working within both the military and civilian air traffic industries (who realise that you speak on behalf of multi-millionaire private pilot air adventurers…all seven of you) these people believe everything you say. Your words carry power so for the love of all things with holes in them please please please remember to engage brain before putting mouth in gear.
Newcastle airport is NOT Newcastle Airport, it is Royal Australian Air Force Base Williamtown. Newcastle doesn’t have a civilian airport. Those RPT operators that fly in and out do so (or at least should do so) with the full understanding that they are operating under the good graces of the Australian Defence Force who are (or at least were until you opened your mouth on national radio and tv) under no obligation to even allow them to traverse the airspace, let alone land on the runway and drop civilians off or pick them up.
Forget about CASA obligations for civil aerodrome control or RPT services, none of that matters.
The fifth line of the ERSA entry for Williamtown (note please that the only Newcastle entry in the ERSA is for a heliport) states: “AD OPR RAAF”. This airport belongaraaf even more than Tindal, who share joint ops with the Katherine Town Council for crying out loud! It belongs to the RAAF and they have the good graces to let civilians use it. You want to blame anybody, blame the Newcastle city council for not realising that they have sufficient demand in and out of their fair city to warrant a full civilian aerodrome. In fact, further investigation of the ERSA entry shows us (Chapter: LTR Verse: 4) that any civil ops must be in accordance with CAO 20.17 which in summary states that unless the weather is really crap you do what the military tell you to do.
So what have your blustering , backyard lawyer antics and showboating achieved (besides getting me to stay up after a doggo to write and post this)? You have managed to ensure that a group of RAAF ATCs (who are even more overworked in some instances than their civilian counterparts at the moment because they don’t have access to unlimited single sick days if they’re feeling off) who were probably counting down the days to their rostered Christmas leave are now obliged to sit in their dead tower, on an empty base, through the middle of summer waiting for their 62 movements on a weekday and 45 movements on a weekend (source: Newcastle Airport online Scheds) of RPT aircraft, plus whatever itinerant bugsmashers decided to joy-hop around that neck of the woods, happy that they could fly a few sets of touch and goes without suddenly finding a Hornet on their backsides.
As a service brat for my entire youth with an Air Force Dad working logistics and planning I recall the Christmases and Birthdays that passed without his presence. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not going for the sympathy vote here because to a kid that’s just the way things are. Sometimes Dad (or Mum) is there, and sometimes they’re not. But at least you knew that when they weren’t there they were doing something cool like working to defend the country or provide aid to others or (on one memorable occasion) fly a bunch of stranded Aussies back home when Qantas decided they couldn’t. You took it in stride.
But I can’t even begin to imagine how I’d feel if I found out that I blew out birthday candles or unwrapped Christmas presents without Dad because some hyped up private pilot who didn’t know when to wind his neck in had used his unearned sway to make him do unrequired busy-work when he could have been at home.
And then you had the audacity to thank these people! Like they had a choice! That’s like breaking somebody’s legs by yanking the carpet out from under them, and then thanking them in the hospital bed for not wearing out your front lawn by jogging up and down on it.
You’re not a hero. You’re not a consultant. And you’ve been out of the administrative side of things long enough now to not even be an expert. You are a private pilot who bays at the moon. Congratulations. You may be the first civilian in history to have ordered around a country’s armed forces without first seizing the capital in a well-televised coup. I for one hope that for every partner, or lover, family member or child that misses their YWLM RAAF controller this Christmas you cop a nice dose of CAT or windshear on finals.

[Dick Smith]

Toa, but what about the safety of the travelling public-possibly even your loved one's who may be flying into Williamtown over Christmas?

Are you suggesting that because Newcastle Airport Limited, or CASA, or someone, has been negligent that no one should say anything about it?

I note that you do not say it is safe to operate Newcastle Airport without ATC - just that RAAF personnel should not have had to take over after errors by others.

Do you realise I have received many emails from airline pilots who fly into the airport thanking me for my action? They are prohibited by their company from speaking out.

I do appreciate how the lives of the RAAF ATC,s have been effected by the Ministers decision. I,m sorry but I could see no other alternative to my action.

Most importantly, Temporary Restricted Areas were never designed for this use ie in place for a month.The ones used for TIBA are normally only in place for hours.

[Starts with P]

ToA (assuming you are not a troll....)

You are at lease the second person who, on their first and only post, somehow draw a parallel between providing a safe and essential service and the bravery of Service personnel.

The facts are simply that the RAAF allow civilian ops into Williamtown. With that agreement comes responsibility. They were responsible and told CASA they would not be providing a service over Christmas 12 months ago.

CASA responded (kind of), and not CASA's response is being seen as unacceptable by some in the industry.

As a result, the DoD have decided to bring most of the service back to assist with the safety of the traveling public.

But to blame Dick for bring this issue forward and basically calling him a ADF-hater because the RAAFies won't be home is ridiculous.

We all know who's fault this is, and it's not the RAAFs and it's not Dicks.

[Dick Smith]

A most important point is that the RAAF refused to allow civilian controllers in their tower to provide the service. If allowed this could have been organised in the 12 month period.

One of the reasons given by the RAAF was that "warranty" would no longer apply to the equipment if AsA controllers were allowed in the tower. I kid you not- have a look at the FEB 2008 CASA Aeronautical Study on the Newcastle thread on dicksmithflyer.

[mostlytossas]

Toa, You have to be a fool with comments like that. "Williamtown belongs to the RAAF". No it doesn't it belongs my friend to the Australian Government on behalf of the Australian Taxpayer who allow the RAAF use of it as a base. It can and may be taken away any time the Government of the day chooses. That same Government has told the RAAF civil operations are to be conducted at Willy due to the growing needs of the area. Whether you or anyone else like that idea get over it as it is a fact. The RAAF do not allow operations due to there "good grace" they have been ordered to. The same goes with Tindal which you seem to also have a problem with, and any other Military facility that the Government may decide it wants back/joint user.
Now that it is a "joint user" airport (even if still technically military) without GA (that will change in time is my guess) and has high capacity RPT on regular operations it requires ATC. I don't care who provides this civil or military but if the RAAF want to keep control to themselves as you appear to, then they have to staff it. Otherwise Dick is right on this one CASA and AsA should have got controllers in there and in my view leave them there permanently,and make it an official joint user airport.
As for your trite about working over Christmas well I'm sorry too but it is no different to any other essential service on civvie street.
Now before I'm bombarded with replies about how I'm being protected etc please read post#76 I think my family has given enough for awhile thanks certainly enough for me to voice my opinion.

[Gundog01]

CASA and AsA should have got controllers in there and in my view leave them there permanently,and make it an official joint user airport.

Tossa Educate yourself. No joint user airport has any Civilian control element. Townsville, military controllers, Darwin military controllers, Tindal military controllers.

Now that it is a "joint user" airport (even if still technically military) without GA (that will change in time is my guess)

Who really cares about technicalities hey, lob in there with your Cessna and see what sort of response you will get from CASA and the RAAF. HOT TIP: GA will never be at Willytown. Thats what Cessnock, Maitland and Aeropelican are for.

[max1]

Gundog1,
Why not have some civilian contractors in these towers?
Nowra does. Is there a real problem having some civvies in there?
They could operate solo when there is no military flying i.e. over the Christmas shutdown period.
I know quite a few civillian controllers who would jump at the chance to work part-time down Newcastle way.

[mostlytossas]

Oh we are getting pedantic..Joint user as in both civil and military aircraft with their own facilities using same runways ie Canberra, Wagga as well as the military controlled ones. Now the important bit. Will Darwin and Townsville be shutting down ATC over Christmas? No then why Willy? Don't tell me it is due to traffic amounts they all have many high capacity RPT movements.
"Willy will never have GA" maybe?
Schofields and Hoxton Park will never close.

[Gundog01]

Will Darwin and Townsville be shutting down ATC over Christmas? No then why Willy?

The answer to that is simple. >90% of the movements at Townsville and Darin are not Military at all. The majority at Willytown are military.

ASA have managed to staff two International Airports with RAAF (=Government=tax payer funded) controllers. Clearly it is in ASA's best interests to make sure things remain that way. I assume the airport charges from these two facilities are funneled back to the ASA bottom line in some form.

[Howabout]

GD, I don't think it works that way. Airservices can't charge (or at least I believe they can't) for services they don't provide. So, if you use Darwin or Townsville, they can't hit you with an avcharge for, say, an approach or tower service. However, I think there may be some factoring in of charges for use of the aids, eg ILS, which I think are civil-owned.

What you pay is a charge for use of the movement areas, tarmac and terminal, which goes to the civil operator of the facilities. I understand that this is then divied-up and a portion returned to the RAAF for maintenance of the movement areas.

This was explained to me long ago, so maybe someone with more up to date info could confirm/refute my understanding of the way they do it at the joint users.

That said, I am pretty sure that Airservices don't pocket the money for services they don't provide.

[ToA]

Ok first off with the apologies.
My previous email was indeed written in a heated moment post night shift and the brain it came from was not firing on all cylinders. The phrasing did indeed come across disturbingly troll-like and I accept that wishes of turbulence on folk, however frustrating I may find them, are neither helpful nor a great introduction.
So for those specific aspects of the email I apologise.

However, my main point still stands. Williamtown does NOT belong to civilian or general aviation fliers. It is a military airbase. Saying that it belongs to the taxpayer and claiming that somehow entitles joe public and jane passenger to use it is the same as stating that since the ASIO building is a government building funded by the taxpayer we should all be able to kick back in its cafeteria for lunch. Try spouting that line while you push past desk security and see how far it gets you.

Whether we like it or not, the Australian military does indeed have carte blanche control over both some aerodromes and certain sections of airspace, which is why the FUA negotiations have been so delicate and careful and extended. Quite simply, they are under no obligation whatsoever to release anything to civilian use, as much as that may pain the rest of us, and should be free to operate their facilities as they see fit.

The problem is simply that Newcastle does not have a civilian aerodrome. Whatever the reasons are behind the increased traffic levels of RPT and GA aircraft into and out of RAAF Willytown reaching their current numbers is irrelevant (...hmm, not sure that sentence makes perfect sense...but you see what I mean).

Basically we have been allowed to play in the neighbour's pool, in fact they even went so far as to install a lifeguard for us. And now we're having a temper tantrum because they've had the temerity to want to take a break over Christmas? It's not even as if they've locked up the pool (which they are unfortunately entitled to do), they've just stopped watching us dive off the board.

At least they thought they were allowed to dictate the way their own pool was used. As it turns out though, we've managed to bully them back into cancelling their holiday and (to push an already overly stretched metaphor to its limits) sit in their little lifeguard chair while the rest of the family relaxes at the beach.

I just don't think this is a proud moment for GA and RPT in Australia

[ToA]

An additional apology to "tossas" and others that believe me to be an RAAF apologist. This isn't the case. My background is civvy-side. But I approach it with a pragmatism borne of experience in dealing with civvy/military airspace liaison.
My problem here isn't even really the specific issues of Newcastle civvy aviation.
It's the concern that one private citizen is able to redirect Defence Force resources by blustering loudly enough in the popular press.
No the current situation with Willytown is not ideal. The lack of a civilian presence in a city large enough to support 60+ RPT movements per day (plus any number of GA movements) is something that should be rectified.
However, as the vocal amongst us have pointed out, this has hardly been sneaking up on us. We've all had 12 months notice of the pending problem, and even if we waited for some solution, surely we must have realised by the middle of the year that no serious remedy was being undertaken?
Eleventh hour knee-jerks just don't seem particularly helpful to me.

POST SUBMISSION EDIT: My first reply to this thread was held pending approval, so the "an additional apology" bit might seem strange. We'll see if it gets through, and if not I'll try again.

[C-change]

A couple of points.

1. YWLM is there as a fighter base. Its been there since WWII. End of story.

2. Newcastle Airport operates because DoD allows them to and realises the economic benefit to all. A condition of growth in 98 was 6 RPT moves per hour (B190 & JA31/32). Haven't seen it renegotiated anywhere.

3. Reason it is NOT JOINT USER is because four squadrons are based at Willy. Sure, you can move it but how many BILLIONS do you want to spend. If those bloody expensive jets ($12K p/hr) are not given priority, the bill for training (paid by mostlytossas) goes up and then you all whinge about Defence wasting money, but you also want the best knucks in the world !!!

4. Also back in 98 a plan was developed for a civilian airport to be built on Kooragang Is. It didn't happen due cost, as Stockton bridge had to go.

5. RAAF Twrs use ADATS and AsA uses TAAATs. They are two very different ATC computer sytems and it takes time to learn how to use them correctly (months, not days). You just can't jump form a B737 to A380 because your a pilot. Also, if defence let non-trained personnel utilise the equipment and something broke, guess what happens, see you in court boys,not to mention unions. Plus more CTAF because RAAF can't use their equipment because the supplier will not fix it. Its a legal issue, you all know how it works.

6. WLM is moving towards 7 day ops just like TVL but it requires staff and time. TVL has 30 staff for 7 day ops but WLM had 20 and 5 left in late 2008. Do the maths. RAAF and AsA are both having staff problems.

THE MAIN POINT IS;
people have forgetton that whilst CARGS (better than CTAF-R) will now be manned by RAAF ATC staff over X-mas. These same staff will also have to resume full ATC servcies on 12 Jan. That will mean all the usual RPT, plus the refreshed fighter pilots getting back up to speed after a four week break.

All of this traffic will be controlled by some very tired and fatigued controllers in 2009.

How does this improve aviation safety?

Did the minister or anyone else conduct an AVRM (Aviation risk management) on this?

I bet if someone did there would be plenty of highly likelys' and catastrophic's in it.

Sometimes people become so focused in what they are trying to acheive, that they forget to take a step back and look at the big picture.

[peuce]

C-Change .... makes sense to me!

Howabout ... freudian(fraudian) slip perhaps?

" That said, I am pretty sure that Airservices don't pocket the money for services they don't provide. "

Ah ... TIBA?

[mostlytossas]

C-change, I assume you are a RAAFie you make sense, that is one of the better posts I have read on the subject. Thanks for that. Don't know if I agree on the legal/ what if it breaks/ supplier won't fix it bit though.
So we are back to square 1.
1.High density RPT need 7day 52weeks /yr ATC.
2. The RAAF don't they knock off for 4weeks each Christmas.(don't tell the Japs it will be Pearl Harbour again)....just joking
So how is this fixed so this doesn't happen again next year without costing billions?
The way I see it either the RAAF has to build up ATC numbers quickly (I note it is intended) or they have to let and train civil ATC's to use the precious military system on non RAAF days ie weekends and Christmas, Easter breaks etc. Though there are still a few non radar towers around the place. What can't be allowed to happen is the just recent senario of "well we are standing down now but you can't come into our tower and use it either"
There are only 2 certain items that will not change in the near future especially if we are in for a recession. There will not be a new civil airport or a new RAAF base.

[C-change]

MT,
Ex RAAFie, 20yrs, got sick of having time off cancelled and missing time with the family. Not trying to sound like a whinger but it got to me in the end and I made a family based decision and left. No regrets.

Re the Legal stuff, here is an example. Can't mention the company name but when the ATC gear was installed a while back, there was an issue with Air con refrigerant gas in the Radar cabins, underneath the Radar heads. In some cabins it wasn't the new Aus Std R104 gas and Defence were not allowed to accept them. Because it wasn't in the contract, the company refused to change it. It ended up in court and took 4 years to sort out. During that 4 yrs, one RAAF base operated without their local radar and relied on surrounding civil radar.

Agree 100% on RPT and ATC, so does all ATC but cannot be done without trained staff. Thats another 50 threads alone but a short version, overseas ATC pay big bucks and Asa staff leave for better pay and conditions. AsA look to RAAF controllers in short term and offer better pay than RAAF (up 45K pa) and better conditions (argueable). RAAF usually unaware of pending departures, due staff not wanting to ruin future career if the return or change mind and management get little notice.

The way I see it either the RAAF has to build up ATC numbers quickly (I note it is intended) or they have to let and train civil ATC's to use the precious military system on non RAAF days ie weekends and Christmas, Easter breaks etc

Yes, they are trying hard to train and retain staff but it takes about two years, with all the training, before you can use someone. Problem is not enough apply, pass testing or make the grade, plus people will always leave for other reasons. That could all change with the current global situation and the job security offered by defence again becomes attractive.

As for AsA staff in the RAAF Twrs, probably never happen for several reasons.
They don't have the staff for their own sectors and AsA Twrs plus AsA make money for the Gov. and would/do charge Defence a fortune for the service.
Security issues, non defence employees having access to Defence establishment. I know people will laugh at this but unless you have dealt with Defence Security people, they will never allow it to happen.
Also Defence want their people to be exposed to military traffic so they are used to operting with them in deployed areas. Iraq, ME etc.

Defence looked at contracting Southern Bases (NWA, ESL, EDN, RIC) to AsA so RAAF ATC could concentrate effort on remaining bases but cost was too high. Southern Bases to be manned by Aust. Public Service ATC, employed by Defence (vacancies recently advertised).

What can't be allowed to happen is the just recent senario of "well we are standing down now but you can't come into our tower and use it either"

They didn't. As Dick pointed out, Casa and others were advised 12 months ago. A solution was found (whilst not liked by all) and changed last minute by the minister. If WLM had all its staff, they would have provided full ATC over X-mas, just like TVL does but without the staff something has to give.

I feel bad for the boys and girls at Willy that just received a red hot poker for X-mas. They also have to watch each others backs next year when the traffic ramps up again.

I'll bet some of them are contemplating a move to AsA and this may have sealed the deal for them with the flow on effect to be less ATC services at Willy. Anyway I hope this helps.



BTW, I for one appreciate the sacrifices your family have made.

[No Further Requirements]

The civvy guys in defence ATC units are Australian Public Service, employed by the Depertment of Defence. I'm pretty sure that means they are covered by the warranty issue. No matter how we look at it, we need more controllers. But they are leaving in droves, and not just for other ATC jobs. I'd guess around 20-30% are either retiring outright, or have moved into another career. It just goes to show how the passion for doing the job has been slowly beaten out of people.

Back to topic, I just hope this is the last time we have to debate this kind of thing about WLM. Again, CASA/ASA/DoD have 12 months to work it out. My money's on another knee-jerk decision approaching Christmas.

Cheers,

NFR.

C-Change - good work mate. Weather's fine here.

[Dick Smith]

I say again, AsA had 12 months to install a tower and employ controllers at market rates. This charge would simply be passed on to the Airport Operator to be on charged to the pax.

AsA did nothing because they new CASA would water down the requirements with a fake safety case at the last moment. This is exactly what happened.

Until we get competent people with ethics and leadership abilities in the CASA OAR we will get nowhere.

This will probably only happen after an accident.