Merged: Willy ATCO's get 4 weeks holiday, meanwhile CAGRO At Newcastle saves the day!
Thread Starter
E vs W...
G'Day Binos....Merry Christmas!!
I'll cut you a deal...
You got the E coast,
I'll stick to the W..... the fishing's better......
I'll cut you a deal...
You got the E coast,
I'll stick to the W..... the fishing's better......
If you would like to see more information on how I am attempting to stop this from happening - not just no controllers, but also no radar - see here.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 11th Dec 2008 at 06:48.
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Transponders
It will be mandatory for pilots to contact the radio operator and all aircraft must carry and use radar transponders
It will be Class G airspace, will it not?
I introduced the CAGRO when I was Chairman of CASA in 1998. I actually wrote the original CAGRO paper on my kitchen table because the opposition was so great within CASA.
It was never envisaged for a second that a CAGRO would be used to replace air traffic control at places like Williamtown or Avalon. This is an outrageous distortion of the original Board decision in relation to CAGROs.
It was never envisaged for a second that a CAGRO would be used to replace air traffic control at places like Williamtown or Avalon. This is an outrageous distortion of the original Board decision in relation to CAGROs.
Gary , you are on to it. No one would know if the transponder was working anyhow as there is no radar.
What a croc. The people at the OAR at CASA must have come from the Wheat Board.
And CASA wasn't game to introduce the ICAO requirement for mandatory ACAS in 10 to 30 pax aircraft (must never stand up to the powerful) so we have airlines operating into Newcastle which are not so fitted.
Probably be in the Federal Court on Friday afternoon- if anyone wants to come and watch the proceedings send me a message. Also could be looking for a few more expert witnesses.
What a croc. The people at the OAR at CASA must have come from the Wheat Board.
And CASA wasn't game to introduce the ICAO requirement for mandatory ACAS in 10 to 30 pax aircraft (must never stand up to the powerful) so we have airlines operating into Newcastle which are not so fitted.
Probably be in the Federal Court on Friday afternoon- if anyone wants to come and watch the proceedings send me a message. Also could be looking for a few more expert witnesses.
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Dick Smith said "I actually wrote the original CAGRO paper on my kitchen table because the opposition was so great within CASA."
The opposition from CASA was only because you wanted unqualified volunteers to be able to give traffic and weather information to RPT pilots - something that the pilots and CASA would not have a bar of, and with good reason. And furthermore, CAGRO'S came out of a need to provide these services within an MBZ because of numerous incidents that occured after you disbanded Flight Service e.g. AFIZ. CASA has always supported the CAGRO service and recongnizes that it has an important and cost effective role to play as a transition between unmanned CTAF's and class D towers
Lastly, the CAGRO service at Newcastle is not replacing ATC, it is providing an increased level of saftey for RPT aircraft when there is NO ATC service available.
The opposition from CASA was only because you wanted unqualified volunteers to be able to give traffic and weather information to RPT pilots - something that the pilots and CASA would not have a bar of, and with good reason. And furthermore, CAGRO'S came out of a need to provide these services within an MBZ because of numerous incidents that occured after you disbanded Flight Service e.g. AFIZ. CASA has always supported the CAGRO service and recongnizes that it has an important and cost effective role to play as a transition between unmanned CTAF's and class D towers
Lastly, the CAGRO service at Newcastle is not replacing ATC, it is providing an increased level of saftey for RPT aircraft when there is NO ATC service available.
Crisper, Rubbish, The CAGRO was totally opposed and then changed after I resigned so that only ex AsA or ex ADF employees could make money from them.
It's called self interest- It's what is happening at CASA now re Williamtown.
It's called self interest- It's what is happening at CASA now re Williamtown.
I am opposed to a CAGRO service being used when it should be ATC
I have been consistent on this point.
Avalon and Williamtown would meet the FAA class D establishment criteria however after I resigned this criteria has not been used so that airline profits are maximised.
I have been consistent on this point.
Avalon and Williamtown would meet the FAA class D establishment criteria however after I resigned this criteria has not been used so that airline profits are maximised.
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I see AsA advertising for a Unicom at Dubbo.
From the 'Seek' website
SEEK jobs database and employment advice
I know it's not the same as Willy, posted for interest only.
tipsy
From the 'Seek' website
SEEK jobs database and employment advice
I know it's not the same as Willy, posted for interest only.
tipsy
Avalon and Williamtown would meet the FAA class D establishment criteria however after I resigned this criteria has not been used so that airline profits are maximised.
Gary GNU,
Warning! Speculation only! It'll probably be a CTAF(R), as already mentioned in ERSA.
Dick,
No tower=no income=no profits;
Tower=income=profits.
But you say No tower=profits. Please explain??
Anyone care to speculate where the authority to enforce the carriage and operation of transponders in the Deacticvated Willy Airspace will derive from?
Dick,
No tower=no income=no profits;
Tower=income=profits.
But you say No tower=profits. Please explain??
it R airspace around it!
Fantastic news I have just heard that the defence minister has stepped in and instructed the military to continue to provide the CAGRO with the radar display.
He has also said he will be involved in promptly deciding on a permanent solution.
There will be a good outcome for Newcastle now - he is smart.
I am delighted and could not have expected a better outcome.
He has also said he will be involved in promptly deciding on a permanent solution.
There will be a good outcome for Newcastle now - he is smart.
I am delighted and could not have expected a better outcome.
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Ah Dick, Dick, Dick
:
Why is it that everytime you get on a bandwagon, I immediately experience a very strong compulsion to go and check every one of your assertions to make sure we are in fact comparing "apples with apples"?
Firstly, as crisper has alluded to, the CAGRS at Newcastle is not replacing ATC; it is only being provided outside the operating hours of the RAAF aerodrome control (ADC) service. Previously, the CAGRS was being provided by RAAF personnel outside the hours of the ADC service; now its being provided by "white shirters" instead of "blue shirters". So, what's the difference?
Secondly, during the RAAF standown period last year it is my understanding that there was NO CAGRS provided at Willytown at all so the airport operated on CTAF(R) procedures only. Surely the provision of a CAGRS this year is an improvement by CASA on what was available at Willytown last year, and all preceding years.
Thirdly, Willytown has more risk mitigators in place than either Broome or Ayers Rock Airports to supplement the safe dellivery of CAGRS. And just to make sure we are all not sidetracked by your emotional skewed comparisons, it is interesting to note that in the last year:
- Broome CAGRS has safely handled 5,217 scheduled aircraft movements (on 11 hours coverage per day); while
- Ayers Rock CAGRS has handled 4,374 scheduled movements (on 7 hour coverage per day).
Compare the above figures against the estimated annual 4,488 scheduled aircraft movements that will occur OUTSIDE of RAAF control tower hours at Willytown. It would appear to me that the CAGRS at Newcastle would be quite capable of safely handling this number of scheduled aircraft movements, particularly considering that these movements will be spread over 16 hours of CAGRS coverage per day (longer than Broome or Ayers Rock). It should also be noted that the Broome and Ayers Rock CAGRS units, in addition to their scheduled movements, also process a considerable amount of non-scheduled traffic movements that most likely will not be a feature of the Willytown CAGRS operation due to the 6 per hour cap. So, it is difficult to support your contention that the level of risk to passengers at Willytown would be any worse than the risk to passengers flying into/out of Broome and Ayers Rock.
Finally, with respect to your comment at the beginning of this thread:
Again, Dick, this is more sensationalist bulldust from you that is not represented by the facts. 
If you were to read your NOTAMS carefully, you will note that the coastal route still remains available to VFR flights; in fact a VFR aircraft can even fly directly over the top of Willytown during the standown period if they're so inclined.
(My father used to tell me that if water drips on stone long enough, eventually it will make an impression. I live in hope)
:Why is it that everytime you get on a bandwagon, I immediately experience a very strong compulsion to go and check every one of your assertions to make sure we are in fact comparing "apples with apples"?
Firstly, as crisper has alluded to, the CAGRS at Newcastle is not replacing ATC; it is only being provided outside the operating hours of the RAAF aerodrome control (ADC) service. Previously, the CAGRS was being provided by RAAF personnel outside the hours of the ADC service; now its being provided by "white shirters" instead of "blue shirters". So, what's the difference?
Secondly, during the RAAF standown period last year it is my understanding that there was NO CAGRS provided at Willytown at all so the airport operated on CTAF(R) procedures only. Surely the provision of a CAGRS this year is an improvement by CASA on what was available at Willytown last year, and all preceding years.
Thirdly, Willytown has more risk mitigators in place than either Broome or Ayers Rock Airports to supplement the safe dellivery of CAGRS. And just to make sure we are all not sidetracked by your emotional skewed comparisons, it is interesting to note that in the last year:
- Broome CAGRS has safely handled 5,217 scheduled aircraft movements (on 11 hours coverage per day); while
- Ayers Rock CAGRS has handled 4,374 scheduled movements (on 7 hour coverage per day).
Compare the above figures against the estimated annual 4,488 scheduled aircraft movements that will occur OUTSIDE of RAAF control tower hours at Willytown. It would appear to me that the CAGRS at Newcastle would be quite capable of safely handling this number of scheduled aircraft movements, particularly considering that these movements will be spread over 16 hours of CAGRS coverage per day (longer than Broome or Ayers Rock). It should also be noted that the Broome and Ayers Rock CAGRS units, in addition to their scheduled movements, also process a considerable amount of non-scheduled traffic movements that most likely will not be a feature of the Willytown CAGRS operation due to the 6 per hour cap. So, it is difficult to support your contention that the level of risk to passengers at Willytown would be any worse than the risk to passengers flying into/out of Broome and Ayers Rock.
Finally, with respect to your comment at the beginning of this thread:
So all the GA planes with young families aboard, but without a transponder, that in the past have been able to transit the coastal lane on weekends will now be forced onto the inland lane where it's not possible to do a safe forced landing .
If you were to read your NOTAMS carefully, you will note that the coastal route still remains available to VFR flights; in fact a VFR aircraft can even fly directly over the top of Willytown during the standown period if they're so inclined. (My father used to tell me that if water drips on stone long enough, eventually it will make an impression. I live in hope)