Human Resources, the unproductive industry
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: brisneyland
Age: 48
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I asked a 'manager' at work the reason why a mate was knocked back for a LAME position when those that got the gig were clearly less competent. The answer was they weren't chosen based on technical ability.
If you're not choosing LAMEs based on their technical ability what are you basing decisions on?
If you're not choosing LAMEs based on their technical ability what are you basing decisions on?
Blackhander:
Have you ever heard the expression "An expert team will beat a team of experts?"
Ever had to work with a highly qualified, know it all, Prima Donna who argues about anything and everything at the drop of a hat and isn't into teamwork or helping others?
I come work for you...
If you're not choosing LAMEs based on their technical ability what are you basing decisions on?
Ever had to work with a highly qualified, know it all, Prima Donna who argues about anything and everything at the drop of a hat and isn't into teamwork or helping others?
I come work for you...
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'Sunny' I happen to agree with 'blackhander' & his comments & to some degree yr post. Both would be 'ideal' but we don't live in an 'ideal' world now do we?
If I had the choice (hypo of course) I'd rather have a know-all prima dona fixing my plane than a 'team' of experts' who 'think' they know it all!
Look lets face it few get hired these days in any industry 'cause of their skills level, it tends now to lean more towards whether or not they have studied the HR questions likely to be asked correctly prior to an interview, how sad is that that we have become a politically correct world & nothing else
.
The only good thing about an HR job is that they create jobs for the less technically minded!
'stationair8'. In answer to yr question.........What is the correct answer for conflict resolution? ......... take 'em out the back & thump 'em
Like we used to do in the good 'ole days even at school
CW
If I had the choice (hypo of course) I'd rather have a know-all prima dona fixing my plane than a 'team' of experts' who 'think' they know it all!
Look lets face it few get hired these days in any industry 'cause of their skills level, it tends now to lean more towards whether or not they have studied the HR questions likely to be asked correctly prior to an interview, how sad is that that we have become a politically correct world & nothing else
.The only good thing about an HR job is that they create jobs for the less technically minded!
'stationair8'. In answer to yr question.........What is the correct answer for conflict resolution? ......... take 'em out the back & thump 'em
Like we used to do in the good 'ole days even at schoolCW
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Wanna Be Up There...
Age: 53
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
CW - The problem with having a prima donna genius in a team is that they don't know how to work in a team. If you have a group of people who are good at their job, and who can work together, they will work out the issues that an individual member cannot fix themselves.
The reason Human Resources was put into the recruitment matrix was because of the number of crashes which were caused by the prima donna genius captain who wouldn't listen to subordinates (one in England springs to mind where the Captain took off with with the flaps up). Thus it was decided that there was more to employing pilots than just their technical ability. They needed to be able to relate to others and work as part of a team.
HR was born out of psychology. Indeed many HR managers have psychology degrees and the recruitment questions that have been referred to here are all a result of that history. If you think that these questions are absurd in aviation what about having to attend for psychometric testing when I applied for a job as a baker (many moons ago) for a large bread factory. I mean my job was to be a production line worker who pushes buttons in an automated setting and I had to go through psychometric testing. It was just nuts.
But what I found out when I started work there was that the employees all worked together well, the productivity of the plant was one of the highest in the country and they had the lowest incidences of workplace accidents and injuries than any like plant in the country.
They could have employed the BEST bakers in the country who could kick ass at any bread competition but they wanted the ones who were going to work well as a team. As an aside I lasted three days cause it was just too damn boring. I guess that is something that the testing can't predict.
As far as the questions asked of the referree at the start of this thread, they are clearly designed to look beyond the "He is a great bloke and an assett to any company" line that they hear all the time. They are looking for specific examples of how this person would be an asset. As was stated earlier in this thread they also need to back up the claims made in the resume.
As an Industrial Relations Consultant the HR people give me the screaming sh!ts on a good day, but in the area of recruitment I have to say that they know what they are doing. The rest of the time I just wish they would stay home.
The reason Human Resources was put into the recruitment matrix was because of the number of crashes which were caused by the prima donna genius captain who wouldn't listen to subordinates (one in England springs to mind where the Captain took off with with the flaps up). Thus it was decided that there was more to employing pilots than just their technical ability. They needed to be able to relate to others and work as part of a team.
HR was born out of psychology. Indeed many HR managers have psychology degrees and the recruitment questions that have been referred to here are all a result of that history. If you think that these questions are absurd in aviation what about having to attend for psychometric testing when I applied for a job as a baker (many moons ago) for a large bread factory. I mean my job was to be a production line worker who pushes buttons in an automated setting and I had to go through psychometric testing. It was just nuts.
But what I found out when I started work there was that the employees all worked together well, the productivity of the plant was one of the highest in the country and they had the lowest incidences of workplace accidents and injuries than any like plant in the country.
They could have employed the BEST bakers in the country who could kick ass at any bread competition but they wanted the ones who were going to work well as a team. As an aside I lasted three days cause it was just too damn boring. I guess that is something that the testing can't predict.
As far as the questions asked of the referree at the start of this thread, they are clearly designed to look beyond the "He is a great bloke and an assett to any company" line that they hear all the time. They are looking for specific examples of how this person would be an asset. As was stated earlier in this thread they also need to back up the claims made in the resume.
As an Industrial Relations Consultant the HR people give me the screaming sh!ts on a good day, but in the area of recruitment I have to say that they know what they are doing. The rest of the time I just wish they would stay home.
Last edited by notmyC150v2; 19th Nov 2008 at 01:53. Reason: To protect myself from the spelling police
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"C150v2" I can't argue with yr comments 'cause sadly they belong now in todays 'correct' society. The word "team" seems to be everything (God only knows how we did it pre 'team/HR", we just got on with the job), but answer me this bearing in mind you quoted a Capt taking off w/o flaps obviously in a 2 crew environment. How come we still have perfectly competent flight crew very well trained flying the most sophisticated A/C to date still fly into a hill with smiles on their faces? That's a team environment don't forget, something you & a HR dep are all warm & fuzzy about. So what I guess I am trying to say is "team" means nothing as far as I am concerned. Todays 'team' in a modern day cockpit is for safety & redundancy, you certaintly don't need more than one pilot to fly a jumbo.
And just to add another furphy what about SP ops? I fly SP & have to endure training with CRM
, go figure!!! (gives me time to snooze at the back of the classroom) So no team effort there so again HR means pretty much what most agree here, Human Remains
Jobs for the uni educated more like it!
But at the end of the day we just jump thru their useless hoops & get on with the job.
CW
And just to add another furphy what about SP ops? I fly SP & have to endure training with CRM
, go figure!!! (gives me time to snooze at the back of the classroom) So no team effort there so again HR means pretty much what most agree here, Human RemainsJobs for the uni educated more like it!
But at the end of the day we just jump thru their useless hoops & get on with the job.
CW
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mount Olympus
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HR defined?
What do HR departments do?
Do they create anything?
Do they add value to a business?
Do they generate income?
Do they influence the share price?
Do they boost morale?
Are they a necessary Cost?
Do They make a business more competitive?
The answer is NO to all of the above
Why the hell do HR departments exist?
They contribute nothing and are a significant cost.
If you remove the HR department from a corporation would any one notice?
Only the people in HR would notice
Dr.Casey time to remove the cancer!!!
Do they create anything?
Do they add value to a business?
Do they generate income?
Do they influence the share price?
Do they boost morale?
Are they a necessary Cost?
Do They make a business more competitive?
The answer is NO to all of the above
Why the hell do HR departments exist?
They contribute nothing and are a significant cost.
If you remove the HR department from a corporation would any one notice?
Only the people in HR would notice
Dr.Casey time to remove the cancer!!!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good post NotmyC150V2
But I'm not sure why you're bothering.
Your protagonists in this thread have their opinions, and have dug their heels in and wont listen to anything you'll post here.
At the risk of getting involved in this thread (again I'm a sucker for punishment, I guess 
)
CW, please indulge me:
Firstly:
Please quote the incident, and where it stated in the report that the crew were hired by the modern HR department, using the "mumbo-jumbo" that "most agree here" is coming from the "Human Remains" department. Or could it be POSSIBLE that this alleged incident had more similarities to the Tenerife incident, where the captain was GOD, not a "team player" by any definition, and who took no advice from either the FE or the FO?
Without any effort, I can think of:
Tenerife,
DC8 into Portland, USA,
Lockheed electra in the US,
and the Garuda 737 in Indonesia last year,
That had as and identified contributing factor a Captain who wouldn't take advice from anyone else on the flight deck. Most of these crews were employed in "the good old days" before all these
had any input.
Next:
I'm prepared to be corrected by you on this one, but please let us all know how many 747 hours you've got?
You also rubbish CRM for SP ops:
The British Midlands accident identified areas where CRM can be extended beyond the flightdeck.
DIVOSH!
(It's late, I've had a long day, and I should know better)
Your protagonists in this thread have their opinions, and have dug their heels in and wont listen to anything you'll post here.
At the risk of getting involved in this thread (again
I'm a sucker for punishment, I guess )CW, please indulge me:
Firstly:
How come we still have perfectly competent flight crew very well trained flying the most sophisticated A/C to date still fly into a hill with smiles on their faces? That's a team environment don't forget, something you & a HR dep are all warm & fuzzy about.
Without any effort, I can think of:
Tenerife,
DC8 into Portland, USA,
Lockheed electra in the US,
and the Garuda 737 in Indonesia last year,
That had as and identified contributing factor a Captain who wouldn't take advice from anyone else on the flight deck. Most of these crews were employed in "the good old days" before all these
fairly land HR dep's
Next:
Todays 'team' in a modern day cockpit is for safety & redundancy, you certaintly don't need more than one pilot to fly a jumbo.
You also rubbish CRM for SP ops:
The British Midlands accident identified areas where CRM can be extended beyond the flightdeck.
DIVOSH!
(It's late, I've had a long day, and I should know better)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't confuse the relationship between CRM and HR practices, they are completely seperate and not all that similar.
Tenerife accident was not a failure on behalf of the HR/recruiting department, perhaps a bad culture and definately because the crew were not equiped with the required CRM tools.
What of the relevance of QF recruit testing?, when you can pay for a course to hand you the tricks on a silver platter. What if you do not sit this course, are you disadvantaged as a candidate ?, so is it really relevant ?.
Not for a second am I suggesting that HR does not have a role in the workplace, it does, but it is not the silver bullet to stopping bad attitudes in the workplace.
Put a good employee into a bad workplace and the outcome will be the same everytime.
To back up blackhander, many of the folk I've seen go to QF are the only ones that have bingled an airframe, usually due to complete stupidity, go figure ( not suggesting anything against QF or the broader crews, just an observation ).
Tenerife accident was not a failure on behalf of the HR/recruiting department, perhaps a bad culture and definately because the crew were not equiped with the required CRM tools.
What of the relevance of QF recruit testing?, when you can pay for a course to hand you the tricks on a silver platter. What if you do not sit this course, are you disadvantaged as a candidate ?, so is it really relevant ?.
Not for a second am I suggesting that HR does not have a role in the workplace, it does, but it is not the silver bullet to stopping bad attitudes in the workplace.
Put a good employee into a bad workplace and the outcome will be the same everytime.
To back up blackhander, many of the folk I've seen go to QF are the only ones that have bingled an airframe, usually due to complete stupidity, go figure ( not suggesting anything against QF or the broader crews, just an observation ).
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting there "LRT"
"Di_V" I'm not going to go head to head with you again here, everytime I post something that's of my opinion it's like I hit a road block with you.
But just to jusitfy my thoughts a little (to endulge you as you say but nothing I say will achieve that) for you I was more leaning towards the word "team" as used by some in here which a HR dep tends to look for (amongst other so called attributes) & the word "team" goes hand in hand with CRM, there is my link to both CRM & HR that I may have made without even knowing it
As for the Canary Is's event? Well to me it was rush rush rush due personal & commercial pressures,obviously all the training in the world at the time did nothing to avoid that awful prang.
For me it's my OPINION that CRM is a waste of time in a SP environment.(CRM is basicly common sense)
For me it's my OPINION that HR is a waste of time in any environment.
Just to top it off there where prangs pre 'fairyland' HR days & there's still prangs post 'fairyland' Hr days, so until you remove the human element in the operation of a plane we will be back here bouncing off the walls with different opinions 'till the cows come home!
CW
"Di_V" I'm not going to go head to head with you again here, everytime I post something that's of my opinion it's like I hit a road block with you.
But just to jusitfy my thoughts a little (to endulge you as you say but nothing I say will achieve that) for you I was more leaning towards the word "team" as used by some in here which a HR dep tends to look for (amongst other so called attributes) & the word "team" goes hand in hand with CRM, there is my link to both CRM & HR that I may have made without even knowing it
As for the Canary Is's event? Well to me it was rush rush rush due personal & commercial pressures,obviously all the training in the world at the time did nothing to avoid that awful prang.
For me it's my OPINION that CRM is a waste of time in a SP environment.(CRM is basicly common sense)
For me it's my OPINION that HR is a waste of time in any environment.
Just to top it off there where prangs pre 'fairyland' HR days & there's still prangs post 'fairyland' Hr days, so until you remove the human element in the operation of a plane we will be back here bouncing off the walls with different opinions 'till the cows come home!
CW
Last edited by Capt Wally; 19th Nov 2008 at 21:55. Reason: thank God ya don't need to be good at spelling to be a pilot:-)
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the Hangar
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do some part time work for a pseudo govt dept where our HR dept is called "People & Culture". I wonder how much it cost taxpayers to dream up that modern name. And to be quite honest I've seen better cultures growing between my toes after a week in the PNG bush.
All the different depts have their own area's of specialties, but may work with each other under a flagship, a theme or a stream. We're closing down some sites across the country due to budget cutbacks (thanks Krudd).
I'm sure it's because nobody had the foresight to develop the streams into rivers big enough to sail the flagships up ....
All the different depts have their own area's of specialties, but may work with each other under a flagship, a theme or a stream. We're closing down some sites across the country due to budget cutbacks (thanks Krudd).
I'm sure it's because nobody had the foresight to develop the streams into rivers big enough to sail the flagships up ....
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last time
G'day LRT, and I agree wrt HR and CRM.
The point I was trying to make was to counter one of CW's earlier. Obviously, I didn't do a great job of it!
CW, I agree with you!
Normally I like your posts, and don't want to get into a prolonged debate over what is a difference of opinion between us. So this is the last you'll hear from me! (On this thread, anyway )
Cheers,
DIVOSH!
The point I was trying to make was to counter one of CW's earlier. Obviously, I didn't do a great job of it!
CW, I agree with you!
everytime I post something that's of my opinion it's like I hit a road block with you.
)Cheers,
DIVOSH!
Last edited by Di_Vosh; 20th Nov 2008 at 01:28. Reason: Clarity
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok Di_V jobs done, we obviously have very different views on this subject, mostly what I have read to date is against the HR BS that we have to endure. Each to their own
Funny you know & this is a side event but many years ago I dated a girl (yes girl) whom had a HR job, nothing to do with Aviation though. Believe it or not our first meeting was like an interview for me, maybe I have a subconscious desire to not like HR people after that! Obviously I didn't get the "job"
CW
Funny you know & this is a side event but many years ago I dated a girl (yes girl) whom had a HR job, nothing to do with Aviation though. Believe it or not our first meeting was like an interview for me, maybe I have a subconscious desire to not like HR people after that!
Obviously I didn't get the "job"CW
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CW,
Did you have more luck dating men with HR jobs ?, no no really, we believe you.........., what was the first date like,,,,,, oh hang on, pretty sure I won't want to know about that either....
Did you have more luck dating men with HR jobs ?, no no really, we believe you..........
, what was the first date like,,,,,, oh hang on, pretty sure I won't want to know about that either....
