logging of hours?
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logging of hours?
Hi all
I am looking to move into multi-crew operations however have heard different ideas and interpretations on how to log hours as a First Officer.
If you hold a Command endorsement, can you log the sectors which you fly as ICUS? I understand that there maybe a requirement to sit in the left seat.
It is my understanding from different sources that international carriers outside of Australia expect to see a certain amount of P1 or Command time. Is this possible in Oz without being Captain?
Other countries allow FO's to log ICUS time on the sectors flown, providing it signed in their logbook by the Captain. Is it a case that Australia is just different to the rest of the world?
Thanks in advance
NP
I am looking to move into multi-crew operations however have heard different ideas and interpretations on how to log hours as a First Officer.
If you hold a Command endorsement, can you log the sectors which you fly as ICUS? I understand that there maybe a requirement to sit in the left seat.
It is my understanding from different sources that international carriers outside of Australia expect to see a certain amount of P1 or Command time. Is this possible in Oz without being Captain?
Other countries allow FO's to log ICUS time on the sectors flown, providing it signed in their logbook by the Captain. Is it a case that Australia is just different to the rest of the world?
Thanks in advance
NP
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If you hold a Command endorsement, can you log the sectors which you fly as ICUS? I understand that there maybe a requirement to sit in the left seat.
It is my understanding from different sources that international carriers outside of Australia expect to see a certain amount of P1 or Command time. Is this possible in Oz without being Captain?
Other countries allow FO's to log ICUS time on the sectors flown, providing it signed in their logbook by the Captain. Is it a case that Australia is just different to the rest of the world?
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If you're just "looking to move into multi-crew operations", then worry about getting the job, passing your endorsement and line check.
Then log your hours however your company ops/admin manual tells you too. Simple - no thought process required.
Sooner or later you are going to log co-pilot time if you ever want LHS in an RPT aircraft.
Then log your hours however your company ops/admin manual tells you too. Simple - no thought process required.
Sooner or later you are going to log co-pilot time if you ever want LHS in an RPT aircraft.
newpic,
Actually, my experience overseas is that there is no such thing as ICUS and most carriers don't expect any command time unless they are employing you as a Captain.
Certainly most European, Middle eastern and Asian carriers who employ FOs don't have PIC minimum requirenements for them.
Actually, my experience overseas is that there is no such thing as ICUS and most carriers don't expect any command time unless they are employing you as a Captain.
Certainly most European, Middle eastern and Asian carriers who employ FOs don't have PIC minimum requirenements for them.
Logging Of Hours
Icarus53 I just happen to know the young pilot who posted that query. Just for your info he already has a Part1 Type Rating on a heay turbo-prop, one that is heavier than a DHC8.
Newpic I would suggest you run 2 log books in parallel, one to conform with Aust. CAO's and the other that would be in line with International standards.
Logging P1US is the norm in the Uk and Singapore if one has a Part1 type endorsement.
Hopefully one day CASA will wake up and bring us in line with the rest of the world after all it took them decades to scrap the 5 types of Instrument Ratings and the requirement to be in an airline before one held an ATPL.
Newpic I would suggest you run 2 log books in parallel, one to conform with Aust. CAO's and the other that would be in line with International standards.
Logging P1US is the norm in the Uk and Singapore if one has a Part1 type endorsement.
Hopefully one day CASA will wake up and bring us in line with the rest of the world after all it took them decades to scrap the 5 types of Instrument Ratings and the requirement to be in an airline before one held an ATPL.
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You will probably find the airline will state in their documentation how to log the hours. In Qantas, the F/O logs ICUS when PF for the sector and Co-Pilot when PNF.
As far as running two log books-I do not think that is necessary. If I ever go to another airline that does not recognise ICUS then all I have to do is add my ICUS to the Co-Pilot time for TT as F/O.
It's all smoke and mirrors really...you are either F/O or Capt. and any airline that you go to will want hours as F/O or PIC.
As far as running two log books-I do not think that is necessary. If I ever go to another airline that does not recognise ICUS then all I have to do is add my ICUS to the Co-Pilot time for TT as F/O.
It's all smoke and mirrors really...you are either F/O or Capt. and any airline that you go to will want hours as F/O or PIC.
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Hey Tempo,
Is that right that the F/O logs ICUS while he is PF. Sounds a bit weird there. Surely it must all be Co-Pilot as you are not PIC. And really any one who knows that operation must understand what the co-pilot does so why bother.
What if your captain takes over on approach, I guess you logg the last 5 mins as co-pilot.
Sounds too hard
Is that right that the F/O logs ICUS while he is PF. Sounds a bit weird there. Surely it must all be Co-Pilot as you are not PIC. And really any one who knows that operation must understand what the co-pilot does so why bother.
What if your captain takes over on approach, I guess you logg the last 5 mins as co-pilot.
Sounds too hard
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If your capt takes over on approach, Id suggest you shouldnt be logging ICUS at all...
NZ calls it command practice. Either you are PiC and it goes in that column or youre not. Then you log it as either co-pilot or command practice if offered as such by the captain.
As Icarus says... get the job first.
NZ calls it command practice. Either you are PiC and it goes in that column or youre not. Then you log it as either co-pilot or command practice if offered as such by the captain.
As Icarus says... get the job first.
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Riddick,
Yes...the F/O is not the PIC....hence ICUS when PF on the sector (if you were PIC you would log PIC time). If the Cpt has to take over for the landing then the sector is not logged as ICUS.
This is QF policy and it is written in the 'ops manual'.
Warren 9....sounds like 'command practice' and ICUS are the same thing really.
Yes...the F/O is not the PIC....hence ICUS when PF on the sector (if you were PIC you would log PIC time). If the Cpt has to take over for the landing then the sector is not logged as ICUS.
This is QF policy and it is written in the 'ops manual'.
Warren 9....sounds like 'command practice' and ICUS are the same thing really.
Riddick
As Tempo has stated the FO isn’t the PIC because ICUS ≠ PIC. Only one person is the PIC and that is the captain.
These are the requirements for logging ICUS as defined by the CAR's:
waren9
An FO in Qantas doesn’t require the permission of the captain to log ICUS when he is PF as the company ops manual would direct suitably qualified FO’s to log it that way.
As Tempo has stated the FO isn’t the PIC because ICUS ≠ PIC. Only one person is the PIC and that is the captain.
These are the requirements for logging ICUS as defined by the CAR's:
5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a
commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or
her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; (i.e. a P1 rating. You don’t need an ATPL to hold a P1 rating on an aircraft over 5700kg. You only need one to be the PIC.)
and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight
crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or
grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; (i.e. a MECIR)
and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft;
and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as
pilot acting in command under supervision; (This will usually be written in the operator’s ops manual as a blanket approval)
and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose
by the operator of the aircraft. (All this is saying is that the company will appoint a captain as the PIC, not that a certain captain must be appointed to each flight to allow the FO to log ICUS)
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a
commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or
her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; (i.e. a P1 rating. You don’t need an ATPL to hold a P1 rating on an aircraft over 5700kg. You only need one to be the PIC.)
and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight
crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or
grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; (i.e. a MECIR)
and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft;
and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as
pilot acting in command under supervision; (This will usually be written in the operator’s ops manual as a blanket approval)
and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose
by the operator of the aircraft. (All this is saying is that the company will appoint a captain as the PIC, not that a certain captain must be appointed to each flight to allow the FO to log ICUS)
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) The operator of an aircraft may permit a person to fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot licence that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft; (note it doesn’t say that the licence must allow the person to fly the aircraft in command, therefore a CPL is OK to fly the aircraft even if it is above 5700kg.)
or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were such a licence;
and
(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; (i.e. a P1 rating. You don’t need an ATPL to hold a P1 rating on an aircraft over 5700kg. You only need one to be the PIC)
and
(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned. (i.e. a MECIR)
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(3) An offence against sub regulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict liability
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot licence that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft; (note it doesn’t say that the licence must allow the person to fly the aircraft in command, therefore a CPL is OK to fly the aircraft even if it is above 5700kg.)
or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were such a licence;
and
(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; (i.e. a P1 rating. You don’t need an ATPL to hold a P1 rating on an aircraft over 5700kg. You only need one to be the PIC)
and
(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned. (i.e. a MECIR)
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(3) An offence against sub regulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict liability
Definition of ICUS;
(3) For the purposes of this Part, a person flies an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision if, during flight time in the aircraft, the person performs the duties and functions of the pilot in command while under the supervision of the pilot in command approved for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft. (Note: The duties of the PIC don’t necessarily include the take-off and/or the landing. In most instances in airlines like Qantas the approval of the PIC to supervise the FO for the purpose of logging ICUS is a blanket approval in the company’s ops manual.)
(3) For the purposes of this Part, a person flies an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision if, during flight time in the aircraft, the person performs the duties and functions of the pilot in command while under the supervision of the pilot in command approved for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft. (Note: The duties of the PIC don’t necessarily include the take-off and/or the landing. In most instances in airlines like Qantas the approval of the PIC to supervise the FO for the purpose of logging ICUS is a blanket approval in the company’s ops manual.)
waren9
An FO in Qantas doesn’t require the permission of the captain to log ICUS when he is PF as the company ops manual would direct suitably qualified FO’s to log it that way.
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No argument from me. Just pointing out the NZ differences.
It (NZ command practice) also requires the person logging it to have made all the wx/fuel/operational/cabin crew interaction and decisions etc without (or with minimal) input from the PiC. Operators commonly stipulate minimum PiC and copilot experience levels for each to a. offer it; and b. log it. An FO is not normally automatically entitled to log it.
It (NZ command practice) also requires the person logging it to have made all the wx/fuel/operational/cabin crew interaction and decisions etc without (or with minimal) input from the PiC. Operators commonly stipulate minimum PiC and copilot experience levels for each to a. offer it; and b. log it. An FO is not normally automatically entitled to log it.
Yeah but whats the point?? Is it because Qantas just wants to be different, or do you (as an FO) require a certain amount of ICUS before you can be promoted? Or is it just nice to fill in a different column in the log book? At the end of the day your not PIC.....no matter how many command decisions you think your making. Even doing command training your not PIC.....until signed off at the end!
DM
DM
Dogman
For the record I don’t work for Qantas. I work for Cathay. It is a very common practice elsewhere around the world for regulators to have similar rules governing the logging of ICUS or P1US. It’s not a case of as you put it of “Qantas just wanting to be different”. It’s more a case that airlines right around the world are employing cadets in ever increasing numbers and these rule are there to make it possible to promote them once they have gained the necessary experience. Without them they would never be able to get that experience within the airline environment.
For the record I don’t work for Qantas. I work for Cathay. It is a very common practice elsewhere around the world for regulators to have similar rules governing the logging of ICUS or P1US. It’s not a case of as you put it of “Qantas just wanting to be different”. It’s more a case that airlines right around the world are employing cadets in ever increasing numbers and these rule are there to make it possible to promote them once they have gained the necessary experience. Without them they would never be able to get that experience within the airline environment.
Wizofoz
You will find many operators and regulators around the world require ICUS or P1US totals to be indicated on their employment or licencing forms.
Generally in the UK each sector completed under the heading P1US was normally an indication that the pilot flew that sector. Thus providing the information of the number of take-offs and landings the pilot had done.
Dogman and Riddick perhaps you should learn something from the postings from Titan and Tempo. Just remember 500 hours on a light twin might be of importance in Aust. It holds little regard at airline level.
newpic you have your answer.
Titan good post
You will find many operators and regulators around the world require ICUS or P1US totals to be indicated on their employment or licencing forms.
Generally in the UK each sector completed under the heading P1US was normally an indication that the pilot flew that sector. Thus providing the information of the number of take-offs and landings the pilot had done.
Dogman and Riddick perhaps you should learn something from the postings from Titan and Tempo. Just remember 500 hours on a light twin might be of importance in Aust. It holds little regard at airline level.
newpic you have your answer.
Titan good post
