AFAP pilots union - is it worth it?
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I've got pretty decent Loss of Income (similar to Loss of Licence) cover from a Life Insurance company. They do not care about aerobatics flying in Limited category aircraft but they do care about agricultural work.
For this reason I am seriously considering going with the TWU rather than AFAP. At 1% of salary that's pretty expensive compared to the TWU's mighty big stick for only $9.00 per week.
Thoughts?
FRQ CB
For this reason I am seriously considering going with the TWU rather than AFAP. At 1% of salary that's pretty expensive compared to the TWU's mighty big stick for only $9.00 per week.
Thoughts?
FRQ CB
I've got pretty decent Loss of Income (similar to Loss of Licence) cover from a Life Insurance company.
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Who you are employed by and which organization the majority of your work mates are in will have an influence, or at least should.
If your in QF no use what so ever, AIPA, if you work for sky west like wise TWU ( except the LOL of course), if you work for Virgin the AFAP are probably a good choice.
My experience with the AFAP has not been good, I resigned and put my money to a better cause. I haven't heard many first hand stories where the AFAP has been useful, I'm sure others have.
What would be good is if there was one organization that covered all pilots GA - airlines.
If your in QF no use what so ever, AIPA, if you work for sky west like wise TWU ( except the LOL of course), if you work for Virgin the AFAP are probably a good choice.
My experience with the AFAP has not been good, I resigned and put my money to a better cause. I haven't heard many first hand stories where the AFAP has been useful, I'm sure others have.
What would be good is if there was one organization that covered all pilots GA - airlines.
Join Date: Apr 2009
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GA needs more repsentation
GA pilots need far more representation from AFAP. Allot of us have been there, done that in some two bit GA company who only cares about the bottom line. Underpaid pilots are unhappy pilots and this can lead to all sorts of issues for both the company (revolving door of pilots coming and going, more ICUS, non-revenue flights, etc.) and pilots (stress, how can I afford to pay rent AND eat this week)
Charter and scenic operators need to be publicly exposed for what they are doing and i think AFAP need to lead the way on the issue. The practice of not paying pilots allowances and even worse paying pilots as "Contractors" on an ABN is totally wrong, and I dare say illegal. I still can't believe the amount of companies in the NT that actually boast that they pay the award.
Talking to a few friends further up the food chain AFAP seams to do a good job negotiating EBA's. But union numbers in these type of airlines are a far greater percentage.
I would really like to see current AFAP members and union reps going to flying schools and signing up CPL students before they go looking for work. Before every instructor jumps on my back and says "but that will hurt our enrollments" yes it will BUT I for one am sick to death of flying schools lying to students, teaching them on these wizz bang G1000 C172's so they are "Airline ready". Reality is that this is not how the aviation industry works in Australia unless your enrolled in one of those Cadetships, which is an idea thought up by satin himself.
100% membership is what AFAP needs, everyone from students to A380 captains. With a high percentage of members in the industry AFAP will grow the teeth that it needs to support it's members, but unfortunately many people are waiting for the federation to grow teeth first and that won't be happening anytime soon.
Charter and scenic operators need to be publicly exposed for what they are doing and i think AFAP need to lead the way on the issue. The practice of not paying pilots allowances and even worse paying pilots as "Contractors" on an ABN is totally wrong, and I dare say illegal. I still can't believe the amount of companies in the NT that actually boast that they pay the award.
Talking to a few friends further up the food chain AFAP seams to do a good job negotiating EBA's. But union numbers in these type of airlines are a far greater percentage.
I would really like to see current AFAP members and union reps going to flying schools and signing up CPL students before they go looking for work. Before every instructor jumps on my back and says "but that will hurt our enrollments" yes it will BUT I for one am sick to death of flying schools lying to students, teaching them on these wizz bang G1000 C172's so they are "Airline ready". Reality is that this is not how the aviation industry works in Australia unless your enrolled in one of those Cadetships, which is an idea thought up by satin himself.
100% membership is what AFAP needs, everyone from students to A380 captains. With a high percentage of members in the industry AFAP will grow the teeth that it needs to support it's members, but unfortunately many people are waiting for the federation to grow teeth first and that won't be happening anytime soon.
Beat ups are fun,
NO A380 Pilots will be members of AFAP as they are members of AIPA who are their union re their EBA.
I agree totaly there should be 100% union membership.
This will be AFAP for GA, AIPA [largely] for Qantas group and a mixture for other organizations.
NO A380 Pilots will be members of AFAP as they are members of AIPA who are their union re their EBA.
I agree totaly there should be 100% union membership.
This will be AFAP for GA, AIPA [largely] for Qantas group and a mixture for other organizations.
Basically, I am and have been all my life, a bit antipathetic towards unions. The only union I have been in was the AFAP and that only because, at the time I joined the airlines, I was given no choice. I'm no longer in the AFAP as I don't fly for a crust anymore and that excludes me - otherwise I would have remained for the LOL.
However, over the period I was a member I had, in the main, good experiences.
If you have a half legitimate claim, and you aren't getting a satisfactory hearing then you should be getting on the phone and talking to the man at the top. On the few occasions I needed to do so, Laurie Cox always made time for my call and, without exception, did me proud with his assistance. Actually, upon reflection, I did grieve one award unsuccessfully but that was shortly prior to the 1989 flare up and, to be fair, the AFAP had more important things to fight.
Of course, reality has to be in vogue so, if your concern is a bit over the top, don't expect the union to waste much time on your case.
100% membership is what AFAP needs, everyone from students to A380 captains
Isn't that the truth. Any union body is only as good as its members and its percentage of coverage.
This will be AFAP for GA, AIPA [largely] for Qantas group and a mixture for other organizations
.. and you then find yourself in the "united we stand, divided we fall" arena. Didn't you read anything about 1989 ?
People have the CHOICE in this country to join a union if they're so interested and preying on young impressionable people by any union is despicable
Tell me, do you fancy yourself as David ? or Goliath ? putting aside the fairy tales of slingshots and such.
When the AFAP was the one pilot union it partnered the airlines and the membership quite well with, in the main, not too much nonsense. Mind you, I am not an apologist and the union did push some silly things at times.
Once the QF guys splintered to feather their own nest, the die was cast and things progressively slid down the slippery slope to 1989 which, regardless of what stories you might like to believe, was stirred up by the airlines rather than the pilot group.
Unfortunately, the AFAP leadership, at that time, was gullible and naive - sufficiently so for the airline management folk (with the assistance of some well known politicians and industrial relations figures) to lead the union by the nose into the slaughterhouse - all history now, of course.
The point of interest, though, is that a union is emasculated unless it has total coverage.
The problem for the AFAP is that pilots, as a rule, are amongst the most self-centred and selfish folk around. I am still incredibly amazed that the group stood firm to the extent it did during the 1989 stupidity.
TWU ? Fine if your problem suits their current agenda, I suggest.
However, over the period I was a member I had, in the main, good experiences.
If you have a half legitimate claim, and you aren't getting a satisfactory hearing then you should be getting on the phone and talking to the man at the top. On the few occasions I needed to do so, Laurie Cox always made time for my call and, without exception, did me proud with his assistance. Actually, upon reflection, I did grieve one award unsuccessfully but that was shortly prior to the 1989 flare up and, to be fair, the AFAP had more important things to fight.
Of course, reality has to be in vogue so, if your concern is a bit over the top, don't expect the union to waste much time on your case.
100% membership is what AFAP needs, everyone from students to A380 captains
Isn't that the truth. Any union body is only as good as its members and its percentage of coverage.
This will be AFAP for GA, AIPA [largely] for Qantas group and a mixture for other organizations
.. and you then find yourself in the "united we stand, divided we fall" arena. Didn't you read anything about 1989 ?
People have the CHOICE in this country to join a union if they're so interested and preying on young impressionable people by any union is despicable
Tell me, do you fancy yourself as David ? or Goliath ? putting aside the fairy tales of slingshots and such.
When the AFAP was the one pilot union it partnered the airlines and the membership quite well with, in the main, not too much nonsense. Mind you, I am not an apologist and the union did push some silly things at times.
Once the QF guys splintered to feather their own nest, the die was cast and things progressively slid down the slippery slope to 1989 which, regardless of what stories you might like to believe, was stirred up by the airlines rather than the pilot group.
Unfortunately, the AFAP leadership, at that time, was gullible and naive - sufficiently so for the airline management folk (with the assistance of some well known politicians and industrial relations figures) to lead the union by the nose into the slaughterhouse - all history now, of course.
The point of interest, though, is that a union is emasculated unless it has total coverage.
The problem for the AFAP is that pilots, as a rule, are amongst the most self-centred and selfish folk around. I am still incredibly amazed that the group stood firm to the extent it did during the 1989 stupidity.
TWU ? Fine if your problem suits their current agenda, I suggest.
Ok,
I'll bite. :
About 3000 airline pilots in Australia are AIPA members.
I don't know how many AIRLINE pilots are represented by AFAP [they would be in Virgin, some in Jetstar, REX etc]
Actually more AIPA in Jetstar now.
GA totally AFAP [AIPA not allowed coverage]
What are conditions like in Qantas versus others?
I was around in 89, one of the reasons I am not in AFAP.
I agree we should be united, it will not happen under AFAP.
It could happen under Ausalpa with help from both AIPA and AFAP if some of you guys will get over the events of 1981, 1989 etc.
I'll bite. :
About 3000 airline pilots in Australia are AIPA members.
I don't know how many AIRLINE pilots are represented by AFAP [they would be in Virgin, some in Jetstar, REX etc]
Actually more AIPA in Jetstar now.
GA totally AFAP [AIPA not allowed coverage]
What are conditions like in Qantas versus others?
I was around in 89, one of the reasons I am not in AFAP.
I agree we should be united, it will not happen under AFAP.
It could happen under Ausalpa with help from both AIPA and AFAP if some of you guys will get over the events of 1981, 1989 etc.
If 100% of Commercial Pilots (CP/ATP) should be a member of one union, then perhaps all the airlines should be merged too, so there is no choice of employer either.
Perhaps the tails of the aircraft could be all painted red...
...with a yellow star...
...and perhaps also a sickle.
Anyway, in a decade or so this utopian dream will probably be reality.
Perhaps the tails of the aircraft could be all painted red...
...with a yellow star...
...and perhaps also a sickle.
Anyway, in a decade or so this utopian dream will probably be reality.
Join Date: Apr 2009
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People have the CHOICE in this country to join a union if they're so interested and preying on young impressionable people by any union is despicable.
NO A380 Pilots will be members of AFAP as they are members of AIPA who are their union re their EBA
It would be nice to have ONE union for all pilots that represent members on all aviation related issues (awards, EBA's, CASA Regs, Airspace changes, Safety etc. etc.)
oh back to reality, I was dreaming.
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I Have been with the AFAP for years. They have spent thousands of dollars on me over the years, twice with the ATO. They won both times.
In my experience those who whinge about lack of support are expecting and requesting support for ridiculous things. I can't think of a time when the have not helped a pilot with a genuine and realistic gripe!
Their LOL is second to none. Run by pilots for pilots. Unlike an insurance company who's job is to look for loopholes so as to be able to denigh a claim, the MBF look for ways to ensure people get paid. Again over the years a few have tried to cheat the system and have expected payment outside the rules and have been denighed a payout. The fund is there to help pilots with genuine problems not to support those who try and cheat the system.
In my experience those who whinge about lack of support are expecting and requesting support for ridiculous things. I can't think of a time when the have not helped a pilot with a genuine and realistic gripe!
Their LOL is second to none. Run by pilots for pilots. Unlike an insurance company who's job is to look for loopholes so as to be able to denigh a claim, the MBF look for ways to ensure people get paid. Again over the years a few have tried to cheat the system and have expected payment outside the rules and have been denighed a payout. The fund is there to help pilots with genuine problems not to support those who try and cheat the system.
Just look out what the AFAP did back in 1989
If you were there, you probably weren't paying attention - if not, then you probably need to do some research. Either way, 1989 largely is ancient history apart from the solidarity lessons which don't appear to have been learned all that well by those who followed on from us.
How many pilots took their lives
A number, including some very good friends of mine and others. More generally, the damage to the pilot group and the Country, in general, was disgraceful.
AFAP got blood on their hands.
If you mean the employed personnel, then the statement is nonsense - the pilot elected officers were in the main driving seat. If you mean the elected officers, then it might be better to say that a number were extremely misguided and living in a new world somewhat different to that of the previous decade or so. The end result was that the group was not optimally advised and, with the benefit of hindsight, went down a pathway which was not terribly productive.
My view is that the biggest problem back then was that the Internet was not developed to the stage it is today. I venture to suggest that, had we had PPRuNe back then, the dispute would have been truncated before it got started.
If you were there, you probably weren't paying attention - if not, then you probably need to do some research. Either way, 1989 largely is ancient history apart from the solidarity lessons which don't appear to have been learned all that well by those who followed on from us.
How many pilots took their lives
A number, including some very good friends of mine and others. More generally, the damage to the pilot group and the Country, in general, was disgraceful.
AFAP got blood on their hands.
If you mean the employed personnel, then the statement is nonsense - the pilot elected officers were in the main driving seat. If you mean the elected officers, then it might be better to say that a number were extremely misguided and living in a new world somewhat different to that of the previous decade or so. The end result was that the group was not optimally advised and, with the benefit of hindsight, went down a pathway which was not terribly productive.
My view is that the biggest problem back then was that the Internet was not developed to the stage it is today. I venture to suggest that, had we had PPRuNe back then, the dispute would have been truncated before it got started.
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In 1989 TWU refused to support the pilots, now they want us. No chance!!!!
AFAP have always been great to me, and remember, the union is only as good as its members. Do you really think a bunch of truck drivers will ever support you?
AFAP may have some faults, but many will be related to these TWU reps trying to build a super union and will be at you pilot members (TWU) cost.
AFAP know the ins and outs of aviation.
I will join the TWU, the same time I vote for labor And send Bob Hawk a xmas card
AFAP have always been great to me, and remember, the union is only as good as its members. Do you really think a bunch of truck drivers will ever support you?
AFAP may have some faults, but many will be related to these TWU reps trying to build a super union and will be at you pilot members (TWU) cost.
AFAP know the ins and outs of aviation.
I will join the TWU, the same time I vote for labor
And send Bob Hawk a xmas card
