Hercs - NVG ops?
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Hercs - NVG ops?
A question for those with some knowledge of night ops.
Last night about 8.30pm (EDST) I heard what sounded like a Hercules pass overhead, and unless it was a particularly noisy variant, it also sounded like it was at less than LSALT. Our elevation is 3600' and grid LSALT here is 6600'. There is no instrument approach that would allow that altitude, and no airfield with lights within 3NM. It was dark.
IF my observations were reasonably accurate, my question is whether use of NVG in military night ops allows operation at lower levels that NVFR. Any other explanations?
I look forward to the replies.
Cheers,
Nivo
Last night about 8.30pm (EDST) I heard what sounded like a Hercules pass overhead, and unless it was a particularly noisy variant, it also sounded like it was at less than LSALT. Our elevation is 3600' and grid LSALT here is 6600'. There is no instrument approach that would allow that altitude, and no airfield with lights within 3NM. It was dark.
IF my observations were reasonably accurate, my question is whether use of NVG in military night ops allows operation at lower levels that NVFR. Any other explanations?
I look forward to the replies.
Cheers,
Nivo
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I've seen them many times operating like this. They are not bound by Civilian rules so they are largely free to do anything they please. They would no doubt be using Night Vision Equipment. I've also seen them too operating at a local quiet CTAF doing night circuits with zero lights visible on the aircraft.
Have you noticed at airshows that the Roulettes and other military aircraft are the only ones that face the crowd within 500 metres when performing their display? eg. they will exit a loop towards the crowd. This is a perfect example of how they are exempt from Civilian requirements.
As for whether it's safe or not, that is another story completely. Personally I think it's ludicrous that the Roulettes are allowed to perform their sequence in relation to their position relative to the crowd. Look at all the overseas crashes involving military aircraft into the crowd - this is no different.
Have you noticed at airshows that the Roulettes and other military aircraft are the only ones that face the crowd within 500 metres when performing their display? eg. they will exit a loop towards the crowd. This is a perfect example of how they are exempt from Civilian requirements.
As for whether it's safe or not, that is another story completely. Personally I think it's ludicrous that the Roulettes are allowed to perform their sequence in relation to their position relative to the crowd. Look at all the overseas crashes involving military aircraft into the crowd - this is no different.
We used to conduct airdrop sorties below LSALT at night when I was flying with them. On NVG and with the load marked with IR cyalume sticks. The DZ would also usually be marked with IR Stobes.
This was even conducted around the Sydney area (usually Londonderry DZ), around Nowra/JB and in the Blue Mountains. Most sorties would involve some kind of tactical flying but as I was at the blunt end of the Herc rather than the sharp end I am not sure of minimum altitudes for this.
The Drops were conducted down to about 700ft AGL depending on the type of equipment going out the back, with the pilots maintaining visual clearance. Often all lights would be off for this type of flying.
We did it with 'Bous too. Flying in and out of unlit dirt strips on NVG.
Safe? probably not, but neither is war. I do remember sitting in the cockpit during one tac flight when we popped over a ridge and there, straight in front of us was a JetRanger at our level and a few seconds flying time ahead!
Now I am starting to miss it.....
I agree, no one wants an incident like Rammstein. The display does look cool though!
This was even conducted around the Sydney area (usually Londonderry DZ), around Nowra/JB and in the Blue Mountains. Most sorties would involve some kind of tactical flying but as I was at the blunt end of the Herc rather than the sharp end I am not sure of minimum altitudes for this.
The Drops were conducted down to about 700ft AGL depending on the type of equipment going out the back, with the pilots maintaining visual clearance. Often all lights would be off for this type of flying.
We did it with 'Bous too. Flying in and out of unlit dirt strips on NVG.
Safe? probably not, but neither is war. I do remember sitting in the cockpit during one tac flight when we popped over a ridge and there, straight in front of us was a JetRanger at our level and a few seconds flying time ahead!
Now I am starting to miss it.....
Look at all the overseas crashes involving military aircraft into the crowd - this is no different.
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A few years ago I had the pleasure of going for a lap around the place in a Blackhawk - on a very dark night!
The PIC was wearing night vision gear, as was I.
It is awsome - turns night into day!
What did surprise me was the number of birds that were flying around - without night vision goggles!
It is not as hairy as it first seems - to the non-goggled eye, but not without some issues that need to be trained for and dealt with.
BC
The PIC was wearing night vision gear, as was I.
It is awsome - turns night into day!
What did surprise me was the number of birds that were flying around - without night vision goggles!
It is not as hairy as it first seems - to the non-goggled eye, but not without some issues that need to be trained for and dealt with.
BC
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It sounds as though my ears were not deceiving me. I have seen Hercs at YWCH during the day, but they must use it as night too.
Thanks for the input.
cheers,
Nivo
Thanks for the input.
cheers,
Nivo
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To clarify a few points raised here.
Yes, the RAAF do not operate to 'civil rules'. That does not mean they are a bunch of care-free cowboys making it up as they go along!
Under all normal circumstances they follow rules and procedures that are identical in application and appearance to civil operations (most notably IFR operations).
There are however a few mission profiles that are conducted upon which there are no civil precedents that resemble the rules the RAAF apply. Examples include night formation airdrop, NVG operations, bombing and air interception.
Each of these mission profiles will have a designated set of rules and procedures that are established and followed at higher command level, squadron level and mission level.
An example of such a difference is that RAAF aircraft will operate at lower than civil published LSALTs on 'Military Terrain Clearance'.
Please don't think for a minute that safety is not a considered factor.
The RAN and the ARA will have a very similar structure to the RAAF with respect to operating IAW civil rules and mission profile rules.
As for the Roulettes I'm afraid I'm out of my league here on this one - but the thread was about Herc NVG ops was it not
Yes, the RAAF do not operate to 'civil rules'. That does not mean they are a bunch of care-free cowboys making it up as they go along!
Under all normal circumstances they follow rules and procedures that are identical in application and appearance to civil operations (most notably IFR operations).
There are however a few mission profiles that are conducted upon which there are no civil precedents that resemble the rules the RAAF apply. Examples include night formation airdrop, NVG operations, bombing and air interception.
Each of these mission profiles will have a designated set of rules and procedures that are established and followed at higher command level, squadron level and mission level.
An example of such a difference is that RAAF aircraft will operate at lower than civil published LSALTs on 'Military Terrain Clearance'.
Please don't think for a minute that safety is not a considered factor.
The RAN and the ARA will have a very similar structure to the RAAF with respect to operating IAW civil rules and mission profile rules.
As for the Roulettes I'm afraid I'm out of my league here on this one - but the thread was about Herc NVG ops was it not
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It is awsome - turns night into day!
Errr.....no, they don't! They're good, but not that good!
Ok, they put enough light into an otherwise very dark night so that I could clearly see ducks flying up the Burdekin River!
How dark a night? So dark that I could not see a Blackhawk land less than 50M from me!
BC
