U206 missing - Northern NSW
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Originally Posted by Capt Wally
but I think a lot of today's budding pilots tend to go it alone a lot as the instructors themselves are 'green' also
Many of the self-styled 'aviation academies' of today can trace their roots back to some of the now defunct Aero Clubs of old -particularly in NZ. In some cases they stripped the old clubs (and their members) of whatever assets were communally held for the members' benefit in the rush to climb aboard the Government gravy-train of Student Loan funded pilot training. In that particular endeavour, many have been successful. The training they offer meets every guideline laid down by the Government (via the regulator) to the letter, at the best price they can manage in an extremely competitive environment. Their 'finished product' is trained absolutely to and within an inch of, passing a flight-test, no more and no less.
What they (and their students) miss out on is the experience of flying with these experienced people on 'away' trips to places their training just won't take them, the conversation at regular social events where matters of concern can be discussed in a non-confronting situation, the 'hand-holding' of perhaps following a more experienced pilot to a place you haven't been before or the ability to just discuss your plans with somone 'in the know' before you go.
Whilst the inexperience of instructors is a matter oft-discussed -and an issue worthy of discussion in many cases- it is my opinion that the greater loss is the lack of formal and informal mentoring offered in the Aero Club training of old. Whilst the 'end product' may not have been totally 'work-ready' at the far end, I reckon they were far more rounded pilots and closer to work-ready than those being churned out today.
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Gooday Wally
That may well be true, but it is not the way I started out. Mrs Jaba actually commented on my conservitive ways when i first started out, and how now I will go tackle much uglier conditions than I would when I had only 100-200 hours in the book.
Its all about the confusion between ambition and ability (yours and machine). The ongoing problem for all of us is knowing where that line between ambition and ability lies.
J
Besides after we get a brand new licence what's the first thing we want to do? go flying regardless of what some might advise against irrespective of their experience level.
Its all about the confusion between ambition and ability (yours and machine). The ongoing problem for all of us is knowing where that line between ambition and ability lies.
J
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Great idea such a mentoring system 
It would probably make sense to establish a website to enable people to make contact, or even as an addendum to pprune (we're all here already anyway..). The pprune profile allows for some details of experience to be put in, shouldn't be too hard to get a little section of the site going that would allow people to offer/seek general advice.
I wouldn't worry too much about the legal implications of mentoring, a simple disclaimer signed by all or as part of the statutes of a club/website membership, that the PIC is ultimately responsible for his or her actions and all aspects of planning, would do nicely. Moral/ethical consideration are a different kettle of fish, but really within the realms of responsibility of the individual offering to provide advice. I would say quite simply if one has the experience, it will more than likely do more good than harm to share it with someone who'd otherwise have to do without it.
Aero Clubs are probably alive and working in more rural areas, when I look at Moorabbin for example, there's really no infrastructure for newly qualified pilots, unless you happen to be affiliated with the Royal Victorian Aero Club, and when I was a member to train there (which didn't last long because of a couple of abysmal instructors), the Club or its members and activities weren't that visible sadly. Seemed like a bunch of old men (no offense, getting on myself
) just using the facilities to go flying, without much of a community feel.. I may be wrong here as I didn't spend too much time there..
It would probably make sense to establish a website to enable people to make contact, or even as an addendum to pprune (we're all here already anyway..). The pprune profile allows for some details of experience to be put in, shouldn't be too hard to get a little section of the site going that would allow people to offer/seek general advice.I wouldn't worry too much about the legal implications of mentoring, a simple disclaimer signed by all or as part of the statutes of a club/website membership, that the PIC is ultimately responsible for his or her actions and all aspects of planning, would do nicely. Moral/ethical consideration are a different kettle of fish, but really within the realms of responsibility of the individual offering to provide advice. I would say quite simply if one has the experience, it will more than likely do more good than harm to share it with someone who'd otherwise have to do without it.
Aero Clubs are probably alive and working in more rural areas, when I look at Moorabbin for example, there's really no infrastructure for newly qualified pilots, unless you happen to be affiliated with the Royal Victorian Aero Club, and when I was a member to train there (which didn't last long because of a couple of abysmal instructors), the Club or its members and activities weren't that visible sadly. Seemed like a bunch of old men (no offense, getting on myself
) just using the facilities to go flying, without much of a community feel.. I may be wrong here as I didn't spend too much time there..
I am a great believer in 'Mentors' but I am not that certain this is always practical. Would you like to be giving advice to a 'low houred pilot' on a go/no go situation over the phone/remotely.
What should happen is that these pilots should be encouraged to seek out advice/help from those more experienced and somehow the the notion that 'fortune follows the brave' that we have all seen creep into PPL's especially, needs to be dispelled by words and our examples.
I have 2 very clear memories/learnings. (amongst many others)
1) In the mid 70's I was forced to land at Mudgee due weather/fog on a VFR flight to Port Macquarie. It was my first encounter with George Campbell. The quiet way he took the time to lead me through the flight I was planning, over a cup of coffee, has stayed with me to this very day as clear as if it was yesterday. In summary Don't be in a hurry, look carefully at your track re terrain etc, nothing is important enough to die for. (G.A wise) He encouraged me to do a plan via better terrain South and compare the time. Big looking dog-leg on the map with little time penalty and a lot easier on the stress level. (I was planned over the tiger country)
2) 1981 approx, going home, from a wedding we all enjoyed, and under severe pressure from 2 passengers that needed to be at work next day. Departed Kempsy but decided weather not suitable for coming NVMC portion, despite the forecast, and returned. Graphically brought home to me when next morning I hear of the light plane crash at Barrington tops. Even my passengers agreed nothing was that important.
These are the sort of messages that needs to get through to G.A. Especially at the stage where thay have enough hours to be over-confident but not enough to to understand the risks they may be taking.
We need more George Campbells for PPL's to learn from as they progress through their flying experiences. His example is what I would call great mentoring.
What should happen is that these pilots should be encouraged to seek out advice/help from those more experienced and somehow the the notion that 'fortune follows the brave' that we have all seen creep into PPL's especially, needs to be dispelled by words and our examples.
I have 2 very clear memories/learnings. (amongst many others)
1) In the mid 70's I was forced to land at Mudgee due weather/fog on a VFR flight to Port Macquarie. It was my first encounter with George Campbell. The quiet way he took the time to lead me through the flight I was planning, over a cup of coffee, has stayed with me to this very day as clear as if it was yesterday. In summary Don't be in a hurry, look carefully at your track re terrain etc, nothing is important enough to die for. (G.A wise) He encouraged me to do a plan via better terrain South and compare the time. Big looking dog-leg on the map with little time penalty and a lot easier on the stress level. (I was planned over the tiger country)
2) 1981 approx, going home, from a wedding we all enjoyed, and under severe pressure from 2 passengers that needed to be at work next day. Departed Kempsy but decided weather not suitable for coming NVMC portion, despite the forecast, and returned. Graphically brought home to me when next morning I hear of the light plane crash at Barrington tops. Even my passengers agreed nothing was that important.
These are the sort of messages that needs to get through to G.A. Especially at the stage where thay have enough hours to be over-confident but not enough to to understand the risks they may be taking.
We need more George Campbells for PPL's to learn from as they progress through their flying experiences. His example is what I would call great mentoring.
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a experienced mentor of sound judgement I would expect only give suggestions to the effect:
"yes - i agree with your decision to go +/- but..."
or
"i wouldn't be doing that if i was you because......"
"yes - i agree with your decision to go +/- but..."
or
"i wouldn't be doing that if i was you because......"
Last edited by BPH63; 17th Sep 2008 at 04:23. Reason: no cowboys - added "of sound judgement"
Murrurundi Gap is a fairly well know escape route from the Hunter region and once through opens to fairly open country
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I once watched a very young and green PPL working towards his CPL, depart my field for Point Cook, complete with unsuspecting parents on board, in 2km vis with cloud on the ground at the half way mark at the advice of a local Crop Duster / legendary pilot from the local area. He told the "student" to go "over the top" and use a DDTL approach (Dive Down and Take a Look).
Mentoring doesn't always work as I found out.
I knew what the weather conditions were as I just came from there (and shouldn't have).
Mentoring doesn't always work as I found out.
I knew what the weather conditions were as I just came from there (and shouldn't have).
Last edited by VH-XXX; 18th Sep 2008 at 05:18.
From the Australian
September 17, 2008
A BUSINESSMAN who brokered the sale of crash victim Scott Menrath's light plane told yesterday how the inexperienced pilot boasted "I'll be right" when he tried to warn him against flying in poor weather.
The recovery of the bodies of Mr Menrath, his partner Monique Fraser and their seven year-old son, Daniel, was put on hold yesterday because of difficulty in reaching the rugged crash site.
Aviation experts were questioning why the 39-year-old chose to cross notorious Barrington Tops - a route considered off limits to light aircraft - during a storm.
The single-engine Cessna 206 slammed into a remote hilltop in heavy weather on Sunday as Mr Menrath, Ms Fraser and Daniel flew home to Brisbane hours after taking possession of the $89,000 aircraft at Bankstown airport.
Veteran pilot Don Hodge, who brokered the sale of the six seater aircraft, yesterday told The Daily Telegraph he tried to warn Mr Menrath against flying in heavy weather but the pilot, who had just 100 hours of experience, seemed determined to pick up the aircraft after spending over two months trying to raise finance for it.
"I said if the weather's bad don't come to Sydney but he just said, 'I'll be right'. He seemed confident ... over-confident. He told me he had flown military planes and I thought he was a lot more experienced," Mr Hodge said yesterday.
"But an experienced pilot wouldn't have left."
A BUSINESSMAN who brokered the sale of crash victim Scott Menrath's light plane told yesterday how the inexperienced pilot boasted "I'll be right" when he tried to warn him against flying in poor weather.
The recovery of the bodies of Mr Menrath, his partner Monique Fraser and their seven year-old son, Daniel, was put on hold yesterday because of difficulty in reaching the rugged crash site.
Aviation experts were questioning why the 39-year-old chose to cross notorious Barrington Tops - a route considered off limits to light aircraft - during a storm.
The single-engine Cessna 206 slammed into a remote hilltop in heavy weather on Sunday as Mr Menrath, Ms Fraser and Daniel flew home to Brisbane hours after taking possession of the $89,000 aircraft at Bankstown airport.
Veteran pilot Don Hodge, who brokered the sale of the six seater aircraft, yesterday told The Daily Telegraph he tried to warn Mr Menrath against flying in heavy weather but the pilot, who had just 100 hours of experience, seemed determined to pick up the aircraft after spending over two months trying to raise finance for it.
"I said if the weather's bad don't come to Sydney but he just said, 'I'll be right'. He seemed confident ... over-confident. He told me he had flown military planes and I thought he was a lot more experienced," Mr Hodge said yesterday.
"But an experienced pilot wouldn't have left."
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Mentoring - without being unkind to large GAAP, they seem to have a predominance of low time CPL working their way to the airlines by instructing. No criticism but their experience locker is still mainly theory.
I started at a GAAP in the 70's and had first hand experience of three instructors in three months.
Moved to a small 'ma and pa' school run by people who loved instructing and later over a brew or beer after would impart the wisdom gained by many years flying and instructing. First time I went outback they pumped me full of wise info that made it a great trip, first of many.
Might have saved my life a few times I reckon. They are still operating although have moved a distance away but I still fly there to do my BFR - because I'm still learning, and they are still mentoring.
And, yes, I know there exist some high time people at GAAP here and there - problem is tracking them down.
I started at a GAAP in the 70's and had first hand experience of three instructors in three months.
Moved to a small 'ma and pa' school run by people who loved instructing and later over a brew or beer after would impart the wisdom gained by many years flying and instructing. First time I went outback they pumped me full of wise info that made it a great trip, first of many.
Might have saved my life a few times I reckon. They are still operating although have moved a distance away but I still fly there to do my BFR - because I'm still learning, and they are still mentoring.
And, yes, I know there exist some high time people at GAAP here and there - problem is tracking them down.
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'RS' I don't believe for one minute that I am missing the point, nearly 30 yrs of flying (for me) doesn't mean that I am that dumb !`Still yr entitled to yr say here along with everybody else. The aero club of today I believe isn't like it was years ago & again todays ppl for Eg is in a hurry to get to the top rarely stopping to ask or listen (& take heed) of perhaps sound advice, but that's just my opinion.
Hi Jaba:-) Conservative is good, safe but like all things in life how does one gain experience without some level of risk?
The surfactant between man & machine will always be tenuous, not as 'viscus' as we would like it to be but on the whole given good habitual safe ways works well enough time & time again, for most.
'XXX' you also bring a good point here. How does a newby know the difference between sound advice & plain strupidness on behalf of the so called mentor? There in lies one of the challenges to the scheme.
More to come I hope
Good to see some spirited responses here
CW
Hi Jaba:-) Conservative is good, safe but like all things in life how does one gain experience without some level of risk?
The surfactant between man & machine will always be tenuous, not as 'viscus' as we would like it to be but on the whole given good habitual safe ways works well enough time & time again, for most.
'XXX' you also bring a good point here. How does a newby know the difference between sound advice & plain strupidness on behalf of the so called mentor? There in lies one of the challenges to the scheme.
More to come I hope
Good to see some spirited responses here
CW
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Mentors
Aero clubs are still the place to obtain the advice/mentoring that has been suggested. But I think the advice should come from a instructor or better yet the CFI (if you can get a hold of them). See the problem for a low time PPL is figuring out what is the good advice and what is utter BS! Yes there are a lot of good PPLs in aero clubs but there are also a lot of down right dangerous ones who are only alive due to blind luck. As may instructors know there are also pilots that just can't be told "I'll be right!". Experience is learning from our mistakes, the ones that don't kill us that is!
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As low time pilots, it would be safe to assume we have just shelled out a huge wack of cash to our respective flying schools - would it not be wise to call those who know us best if we are in doubt IE our instructors?
They have flown with us for hours, rapping us behind the head with a WAC ruler when we c**k up, and so are aware of most of our strengths and limitations. I do agree however that at some of the "academies" many of the instructors are green horns themselves, so why not call and ask to speak to a senior instructor? After all, I think it would be wrong of them to take all our money and not be there when we need them most. Sure we arn't giving them cash anymore - their advice may be the only free product you can get for the years of poverty you have endured...
Fortunately enough for me, when I have been faced with the go/no go question, one call to any of my previous instructors has always put my mind at ease as they would talk through the situation to assist in making the decision. This has definately saved my life once or twice. I will continue to ask for advice whenever i am concerned about a situation i am facing, and when I am worried about doing the right thing. (even if it is just about the nasty rash... )
Common sense goes a long way. One thing i would suggest though to our more experianced guys - we dont want to hear about how brave you are and that we should "harden up". PLease listen to our concerns and don't make us feel like we are stupid. We are worried and we need your expert advice. We know you are busy, but if we feel so unsure that we had to bother you, you can rest assured it is serious. Your reassuring words and advice might just save our lives.
Thats just my two bob's worth.
Happy landings,
AGS99
My thoughts are with the families of all involved. A great guy, and such a tragedy. May they rest in peace...
They have flown with us for hours, rapping us behind the head with a WAC ruler when we c**k up, and so are aware of most of our strengths and limitations. I do agree however that at some of the "academies" many of the instructors are green horns themselves, so why not call and ask to speak to a senior instructor? After all, I think it would be wrong of them to take all our money and not be there when we need them most. Sure we arn't giving them cash anymore - their advice may be the only free product you can get for the years of poverty you have endured...
Fortunately enough for me, when I have been faced with the go/no go question, one call to any of my previous instructors has always put my mind at ease as they would talk through the situation to assist in making the decision. This has definately saved my life once or twice. I will continue to ask for advice whenever i am concerned about a situation i am facing, and when I am worried about doing the right thing. (even if it is just about the nasty rash... )
Common sense goes a long way. One thing i would suggest though to our more experianced guys - we dont want to hear about how brave you are and that we should "harden up". PLease listen to our concerns and don't make us feel like we are stupid. We are worried and we need your expert advice. We know you are busy, but if we feel so unsure that we had to bother you, you can rest assured it is serious. Your reassuring words and advice might just save our lives.
Thats just my two bob's worth.
Happy landings,
AGS99
My thoughts are with the families of all involved. A great guy, and such a tragedy. May they rest in peace...
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The problem is that mentoring only really works in a school or club environment or perhaps a well populated airfield.
Where mentoring doesn't work is for the pilot that gets their licence and goes off and does my own thing. I fell into that category, got my licence and had say 50 hours, bought a plane and went off and did my own thing. There was no club, limited flying mates and no real direction (until later on).
Aviation requires you to often hear things and interpret these things for yourself to gain exposure and experience. If you miss that, you miss out on a lot.
Where mentoring doesn't work is for the pilot that gets their licence and goes off and does my own thing. I fell into that category, got my licence and had say 50 hours, bought a plane and went off and did my own thing. There was no club, limited flying mates and no real direction (until later on).
Aviation requires you to often hear things and interpret these things for yourself to gain exposure and experience. If you miss that, you miss out on a lot.
Very good FB. Reminds me of my old boss...used to say " wherever there is doubt in your mind, there is no doubt". Similar sentiment to yours I think.
There is also another thing called egoism. I used to think that you needed at least 1000 hours before you became invincible. Today it seems you only need 100. Just think of the poor buggers situation. Buys the airplane, anxious to fly it home, all his mates hanging out to see it, the day comes, weather turns crap but he has to prove a point because now he is an experienced pilot.
It is a shame he has taken innocent lives with him.
I just hope this is a lesson to all low time and upcoming pilots.
R.I.P.
It is a shame he has taken innocent lives with him.
I just hope this is a lesson to all low time and upcoming pilots.
R.I.P.
FB
I totally agree with you but they do not teach you experience in flying schools. Like someone said earlier your fresh pilot licence is only a licence to learn. Lots of pilots tend to forget that in the first few hundred hours.
My log book hours is well into four digits but i am still not afraid to ask a more experienced pilot for a second opinion sometimes.
My log book hours is well into four digits but i am still not afraid to ask a more experienced pilot for a second opinion sometimes.
Yes there are a lot of good PPLs in aero clubs but there are also a lot of down right dangerous ones who are only alive due to blind luck.
As low time pilots, it would be safe to assume we have just shelled out a huge wack of cash to our respective flying schools - would it not be wise to call those who know us best if we are in doubt IE our instructors?
I'm a 737 F/O with no instructing time at all ,but I have a few thousand hours GA and regional turbo prop command time.I consider myself pretty inexperienced but I feel like I am now reaching a stage where I could give sound advice to someone with little experience. The majority of instructors now days don't have much experience. ( I know some have huge amounts but the majority don't).
I fly with captains every day who make me realise I am just at the beginning of building up experience and decision making skills and I imagine many of them would take a keen interest in someones progress if this scheme was available.
Weather is one of the biggest issues for low time pilots. Commercial pilots who have been flying into as many as five different centers in one day for years on end can look at a synoptic and a TAF and drag so much information out of it in five seconds that it would blow most of todays instructors socks off. That has got to be worth something right there.
I have a lot of respect for instructors, I think many of them would be great mentors. I also think that there is a wealth of knowledge and experience belting around in Dash 8's, Embraers, 737's etc etc that is not tapped into when it could be.
Framer
I used to think that you needed at least 1000 hours before you became invincible
Just think of the poor buggers situation. Buys the airplane, anxious to fly it home, all his mates hanging out to see it, the day comes, weather turns crap but he has to prove a point because now he is an experienced pilot
Network 10 in Brisbane spoke to his business partner who stated he had received his PPL "about 6 months ago". The pilots flying experiance will come out in the investigation so it's not for anyone here to speculate.(Good weather over winter means he could have logged 100 plus hours for all we know)
If I have interpreted that correctly then what passes for "experienced" in some peoples minds really is a concern.
The more I fly the more I think that creating a safe flight is mainly about being able to identify a) what is different from normal
and b) what is a threat that needs to be considered.
Maybe the mentors could just tell the low time pilot their opinion of the things they need to keep an eye on for that flight and the low time pilot can do what they wish with that information.???