Yak 52 into the sea - Brisbane
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
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I would like to help clear up a few things up about responsibility specially because there is bound to be the press amongst us.
Firstly. I am quite sure YAKs can only be registered in the LIMITED category Certificate of Airworthiness.
Presuming it is registered in the LIMITED category then it can be used to operate adventure flights by a commercially licenced pilot without the need of an Air Operator Certificate and the regulation that entails.
I am not sure but there may be some requirement for the pilot/plane to be registered with the Warbirds organisation.
Anyway, presuming the aircraft was registered in LIMITED, the chief pilot of Hempel Aviation under my interpretation of CASA rules, would not be responsible for checking the pilots qualifications or medical status simply because it is not operating under the Hempels Aviation AOC to which the chief pilot is responsible.
So I dont think there can be any direct blame on the Hempels Aviation chief pilot as he was not required to monitor status of pilots of another operation. However, how can you tell one operation from another when they co-exist and owned by the same person. Difficult one.
OOW
Firstly. I am quite sure YAKs can only be registered in the LIMITED category Certificate of Airworthiness.
Presuming it is registered in the LIMITED category then it can be used to operate adventure flights by a commercially licenced pilot without the need of an Air Operator Certificate and the regulation that entails.
I am not sure but there may be some requirement for the pilot/plane to be registered with the Warbirds organisation.
Anyway, presuming the aircraft was registered in LIMITED, the chief pilot of Hempel Aviation under my interpretation of CASA rules, would not be responsible for checking the pilots qualifications or medical status simply because it is not operating under the Hempels Aviation AOC to which the chief pilot is responsible.
So I dont think there can be any direct blame on the Hempels Aviation chief pilot as he was not required to monitor status of pilots of another operation. However, how can you tell one operation from another when they co-exist and owned by the same person. Difficult one.
OOW
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CAR 262AM defines Limited category ops.
Yes you can fly CPL with no AOC as long as the aircraft has the approporiate CofA issued by the Warbirds Assoc. The limits to ops are listed in the CAR and include things like ops only returning to the same aerodrome, placards say "not CASA", "Own risk", etc. displayed all over the place, and no advertising as Joy or Scenic flights, and or course, only approporiately endorsed CPL pilots.
If it was Hemples that sold the flight then a good close look will have to be had at the operating procedures for the plane as registered with Warbirds as it is this document (kind of a mini AOC manual) that says who's responsible. If it says the Owner is responsible then the CP should be in the clear. If it says the CP or The Operator is responsible then...
Flog.
Yes you can fly CPL with no AOC as long as the aircraft has the approporiate CofA issued by the Warbirds Assoc. The limits to ops are listed in the CAR and include things like ops only returning to the same aerodrome, placards say "not CASA", "Own risk", etc. displayed all over the place, and no advertising as Joy or Scenic flights, and or course, only approporiately endorsed CPL pilots.
If it was Hemples that sold the flight then a good close look will have to be had at the operating procedures for the plane as registered with Warbirds as it is this document (kind of a mini AOC manual) that says who's responsible. If it says the Owner is responsible then the CP should be in the clear. If it says the CP or The Operator is responsible then...
Flog.
Lets not pre empt anything and wait for the coronial enquiry. Barry was a great bloke, a great aviator and an asset to Australian aviation. Let it be for a while.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Whilst I am one for admiration and appreciation for the reputation a good pilot brings upon himself and his company I am a believer in a good pilot doing the right thing by himself and his passengers. If this is in fact true (and I am prepared to wait until I hear it officially) I will be bitterly disappointed and have little sympathy, especially with a paying passenger on-board. The fare paying public enter into an agreement with ourselves as commercial pilots under the assumption that they are paying for the services of a qualified and suitable professional, meaning someone with the appropriate licence and medical. If this is the case and I say IF this is the case, it's no different to an unqualified electrician wiring your home and doing it wrong and causing the home owners death from electrocution. I only hope that for the sake of everyone here that this article is incorrect as it will have implications on everyone, including bringing the Warbirds association into disrepute. I wouldn't be surprised if like the electrician scenario that we will now have to display our credentials to passengers before every flight if the coroner looks into this closely.
Just Binos
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So many experts, so many assumptions, and guaranteed not one of them from anyone approaching the experience level of the pilot concerned. What do you people hope to achieve except the pleasure of seeing your own opinions in print? Will anything on this thread make any difference at all to anything?
Australian aviation has lost a legend. Condolences to all concerned. That's it.
Australian aviation has lost a legend. Condolences to all concerned. That's it.
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Perhaps this is not the time and place, but when is the time and place? Do we wait a month, do we have to wait for a final report?
Death is part of life and I think we should be able to discuss these issues even if we don't know all he facts.
It sucks what happen to Barry and his passenger. Barry was a legend in the aviation community in SE Qld and it is a really ****ty way for him to go. It is particularly ****ty for his family.
But GA is full of people bending the rules to suit themselves and even "legends" do it. Until these things can be discussed openly without people worried about offending other people, nothing will change.
I hope everything was kosher with Hempels and Barry's licence, but the many rumours going around suggest otherwise. I guess we will find out soon enough.
Death is part of life and I think we should be able to discuss these issues even if we don't know all he facts.
It sucks what happen to Barry and his passenger. Barry was a legend in the aviation community in SE Qld and it is a really ****ty way for him to go. It is particularly ****ty for his family.
But GA is full of people bending the rules to suit themselves and even "legends" do it. Until these things can be discussed openly without people worried about offending other people, nothing will change.
I hope everything was kosher with Hempels and Barry's licence, but the many rumours going around suggest otherwise. I guess we will find out soon enough.
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Legend or not, the only concern should be for the innocent victims, and bereaved families. Earlier court proceedings concerning regulatory breaches by the oerator are a fact. The sadness for the family of the operator cannot be ignored, but the trust placed in the operator by the ticket holder must NOT be allowed to be of secondary importance, and the bereavement suffered by the relatives of the ticket holder are of equal if not higher value. IF the allegations are accurate as published, as time progresses the facts will emerge to justify them, and the fallout will, or should be significant.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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This thread seems divided between those who want to remember BH as a ledgend and expess condolences to friends and relatives of both victims, and those who want to discuss what happened - warts and all - to hopefully learn from this tragedy.
Perhaps we need the thread split so one group is not having a go at the other - and making the whole thread rather grubby.
Di
Perhaps we need the thread split so one group is not having a go at the other - and making the whole thread rather grubby.
Di
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This is a rumour network after all and not a memorial. I changed my tune when the new information came to hand. Whether it's wrong or right (the rumour), the Aviation industry relies on paying passengers and there needs to be a level of trust there as part of the transaction process. If that trust is breached and the paying passenger has no way of knowing, the industry has big problems.
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If the rumours are true then those who were in the know and did nothing should be ashamed of themselves and consider themselves just as responsible. If false then those spreading them should feel likewise.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Funeral notice
The Courier Mail|08 September 2008
HEMPEL,
Barry Ian. Legendary
Aviator. Late of Forestdale. Taken
from us tragically before his time.
Aged 60 years
Beloved Husband of Melanie and
Father of Natalie and Aaron. Son of
William (Bill) and Barbara Hempel
(decd).
Family and Friends are invited to
attend Barrys Funeral Service on
Thursday, 11th September, 2008,
at Centenary Memorial Gardens
Chapel, Wacol Station Road,
Sumner, at 1.00 p.m.
K.M. SMITH FUNERALS
Browns Plains - 3800 7800
A Queensland Family Company
HEMPEL,
Barry Ian. Legendary
Aviator. Late of Forestdale. Taken
from us tragically before his time.
Aged 60 years
Beloved Husband of Melanie and
Father of Natalie and Aaron. Son of
William (Bill) and Barbara Hempel
(decd).
Family and Friends are invited to
attend Barrys Funeral Service on
Thursday, 11th September, 2008,
at Centenary Memorial Gardens
Chapel, Wacol Station Road,
Sumner, at 1.00 p.m.
K.M. SMITH FUNERALS
Browns Plains - 3800 7800
A Queensland Family Company
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It seems that everywhere that has these incidents CASA was "in the know" before it happened. Quite sad really that action is rarely taken and when it is taken it ends up on here as a slagging match and trolls through the courts for years taking away resources from where they are really needed.