Merged: Mid-air collision at Moorabbin
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I am still trying to figure out how this happened!!
The left wing on UPY was damaged and left horiz stab. on CGT was also damaged therefore ruling out that both were on parallel approaches to 31 L and R.
It looks like an old fashioned T-bone from the damage sustained to both aircraft but even that looks sketchy!
Has their been any eye-witness accounts on how they hit, because it has me puzzled big time at the moment.
Anyone else have an opin ion in what happened?
Cheers,
AI
The left wing on UPY was damaged and left horiz stab. on CGT was also damaged therefore ruling out that both were on parallel approaches to 31 L and R.
It looks like an old fashioned T-bone from the damage sustained to both aircraft but even that looks sketchy!
Has their been any eye-witness accounts on how they hit, because it has me puzzled big time at the moment.
Anyone else have an opin ion in what happened?
Cheers,
AI
Grumpy
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I agree with Cimbu
In an earlier life when I worked for the then CAA in a safety promotion role and when the then new AMATS system was being implemented everyone said that there would be mid-air collisions and metal would rain down. It didn't happen because pilots know how to use the system that they have to fly in. They adapt.
I undertook an investigation of mid-air collisions - over 10 years there was only a total of 11. Many caused by pilot misjudgment or failure to follow procedures.
Most of these took place in the circuit as one would expect - but most also at uncontrolled airports.
There have been some specatular mid-airs in controlled airspace such as Coolangatta and Bankstown - but they are very rare.
We certainly don't need politicians to suddenly decide that all ab-intio training should take place in OCTA.
I benefitted from learning to fly in Canberra at a controlled aerodrome and leaning as a student o mix it with RPT and military aircraft.
Barkly
In an earlier life when I worked for the then CAA in a safety promotion role and when the then new AMATS system was being implemented everyone said that there would be mid-air collisions and metal would rain down. It didn't happen because pilots know how to use the system that they have to fly in. They adapt.
I undertook an investigation of mid-air collisions - over 10 years there was only a total of 11. Many caused by pilot misjudgment or failure to follow procedures.
Most of these took place in the circuit as one would expect - but most also at uncontrolled airports.
There have been some specatular mid-airs in controlled airspace such as Coolangatta and Bankstown - but they are very rare.
We certainly don't need politicians to suddenly decide that all ab-intio training should take place in OCTA.
I benefitted from learning to fly in Canberra at a controlled aerodrome and leaning as a student o mix it with RPT and military aircraft.
Barkly
Chimbu Chuck for PM I say 
You know what is gonna happen the first time he gets his hands on the PM's jet!
Nobody will be safe!
Dr
PS: Oh what the heck! It will be one hell of a laugh. Chuckles for PM!
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You know what is gonna happen the first time he gets his hands on the PM's jet!
Up the beach careful not to get the engine pods wet
There ya go CC...you're in!
J
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Cimbu for PM as well from me....
As far as knee jerking from the uninformed, it is all about an opportunity to increase their real estate values by trying to close YMMB, but me thinks this won't happen in the foreseeable future but won't stop Uren and cohorts trying..it should be pointed out to these turkeys that mid airs being a thankfully rare occurance do happen. They have happened at airfields around Australia including Archerfield, Bankstown, Jandakot as well as this last tragedy. What should be pointed out that although these accidents did result in fatalities, most had one aircraft land safely after the event, apart from some property damage on the ground, not one person on the ground has been injured...The odds for those on the ground would have a far better chance winning lotto....twice!! To those who are affected by this tragedy, you have my thoughts and deepest condolences..
As far as knee jerking from the uninformed, it is all about an opportunity to increase their real estate values by trying to close YMMB, but me thinks this won't happen in the foreseeable future but won't stop Uren and cohorts trying..it should be pointed out to these turkeys that mid airs being a thankfully rare occurance do happen. They have happened at airfields around Australia including Archerfield, Bankstown, Jandakot as well as this last tragedy. What should be pointed out that although these accidents did result in fatalities, most had one aircraft land safely after the event, apart from some property damage on the ground, not one person on the ground has been injured...The odds for those on the ground would have a far better chance winning lotto....twice!! To those who are affected by this tragedy, you have my thoughts and deepest condolences..
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Chuckles for PM!?
Well, he could probably call the 'Honourable Leader of the Opposition' all sorts of naughty words in Tokpisin and no-one would know what he said!
And well said, Chuck.
Well, he could probably call the 'Honourable Leader of the Opposition' all sorts of naughty words in Tokpisin and no-one would know what he said!And well said, Chuck.
He's off on a tax-payer funded junket.
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A few sources have said the Warrior was inbound from Brighton, and the 150 was doing circuits. That'd explain how they ended up with damage on the left side of both aircraft. Only what I've heard though, that's the rumour, so I won't bother adding my own opinions on top of this which would be purely speculation.
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What I believe happened....
I just want to make clear that I am in no way trying to blame anyone for the accident. It is simply my way of trying to make sense of what has happened, and try to learn from this.
(What I believe happened.... the scenario)
rwy in use was 31L, the C150 was downwind in a left circuit, and the PA28 was inbound from Brighton, joining a left downwind for RWY 31L.
Now... If you look at the left wing on the C150, there appears to be damage to the leading edge. My thoughts are that the damage, is in fact caused from above by the left main wheel of the PA28 pushing the outer leading edge down. In an attempt to avoid any further damage, the pilot of the C150 has tried to turn right putting his left wing in between the left wing and stabilator of the PA28 and in the process, hits the left flap of the PA28. Because the PA28 would more than likely be carrying more speed, the stabilator makes contact with the left wing, right on top of the registration and probably grazed the left aileron of the C150 (Which can be clearly seen to have been bent from below in an upwards direction). The left aileron on the C150 appears to have jammed in the up position (compared to the right aileron's neutral position) giving the student no hope of leveling the wings
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...18553_7420.jpg
A graphic representation of what I've described above.
Due to the low wing, high wing situation, neither of the pilots would have had any chance of seeing each other. This has always been my greatest fear joining the circuit at YSBK!
(What I believe happened.... the scenario)
rwy in use was 31L, the C150 was downwind in a left circuit, and the PA28 was inbound from Brighton, joining a left downwind for RWY 31L.
Now... If you look at the left wing on the C150, there appears to be damage to the leading edge. My thoughts are that the damage, is in fact caused from above by the left main wheel of the PA28 pushing the outer leading edge down. In an attempt to avoid any further damage, the pilot of the C150 has tried to turn right putting his left wing in between the left wing and stabilator of the PA28 and in the process, hits the left flap of the PA28. Because the PA28 would more than likely be carrying more speed, the stabilator makes contact with the left wing, right on top of the registration and probably grazed the left aileron of the C150 (Which can be clearly seen to have been bent from below in an upwards direction). The left aileron on the C150 appears to have jammed in the up position (compared to the right aileron's neutral position) giving the student no hope of leveling the wings
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...18553_7420.jpg
A graphic representation of what I've described above.
Due to the low wing, high wing situation, neither of the pilots would have had any chance of seeing each other. This has always been my greatest fear joining the circuit at YSBK!
Last edited by elche; 31st Aug 2008 at 22:27. Reason: added a link, and changed title.
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Elche, sorry but I really do have to have a chuckle at your comprehensive in-depth analysis of the crash sequence, however you couldn't have got it more wrong.
The aircraft were actually tracking in opposite directions! If you look at the pics posted earlier you'll see that the horizontal stabiliser of the Warrior was smashed from the front to back after the 152 wing hit the underwing / flap and u/c of the Warrior!
Nice try though; there might be an opening for you at the CSI studios.
The aircraft were actually tracking in opposite directions! If you look at the pics posted earlier you'll see that the horizontal stabiliser of the Warrior was smashed from the front to back after the 152 wing hit the underwing / flap and u/c of the Warrior!
Nice try though; there might be an opening for you at the CSI studios.
Slight thread drift here but cant resist.
The dream team in politics.
PM Chimbu chuckles
Minister for aviation East west Loco
Jabbwokky can have defence
FDTK can head up CASA wih various other famous ppruners (or is that infamous)
can fill the other seats on the board.
capt claret can look after the treasury.
maybe something then would get done.
The dream team in politics.
PM Chimbu chuckles
Minister for aviation East west Loco
Jabbwokky can have defence
FDTK can head up CASA wih various other famous ppruners (or is that infamous)
can fill the other seats on the board.
capt claret can look after the treasury.
maybe something then would get done.
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Too Bloody right it would, and none of the crap waste that goes on. the money would be spent and value for it would be achieved, otherwise the defence minister might get his troops to use their toys!
J
PS Beach King for Health
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Would there be a record somewhere of the ALT radar paints of the two aircraft, assuming they both had their transponders on ALT as is normal procedure at YMMB?!
There's no indication on the ATSB site of when a preliminary report may be available, anyone in the know?
I did some night circuits at YMMB yesterday, there were at times at least six or seven aircraft in the circuit, and some of the circuits flown (most with instructors on board, judging from the radio transmissions) were very creative to say the least, a lot of the turns made were dozens of degrees out, resulting in very short base legs for example. This made it difficult to follow traffic around the pattern..
To make matters worse heights didn't seem to matter much either to some pilots there; I'd say they were easily more than a hundred feet over or under the circuit height, which, combined with being outside the normal pattern where e.g. incoming pilots will primarily be looking for traffic, makes for a dangerous situation
Now I understand that you can't keep a student pilot within very tight tolerances all of the time, but I would appeal to all instructors (and students on solos of course) to keep a bit more of an eye on the DG and the altimeter..
There's no indication on the ATSB site of when a preliminary report may be available, anyone in the know?
I did some night circuits at YMMB yesterday, there were at times at least six or seven aircraft in the circuit, and some of the circuits flown (most with instructors on board, judging from the radio transmissions) were very creative to say the least, a lot of the turns made were dozens of degrees out, resulting in very short base legs for example. This made it difficult to follow traffic around the pattern..
To make matters worse heights didn't seem to matter much either to some pilots there; I'd say they were easily more than a hundred feet over or under the circuit height, which, combined with being outside the normal pattern where e.g. incoming pilots will primarily be looking for traffic, makes for a dangerous situation
Now I understand that you can't keep a student pilot within very tight tolerances all of the time, but I would appeal to all instructors (and students on solos of course) to keep a bit more of an eye on the DG and the altimeter..