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ctaf procedures

Old 27th Jun 2008, 07:40
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rep
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ctaf procedures

can someone please confirm if this is correct:

1) when staying in the circuit climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning xwind
2) when departing the circuit in the circuit direction, climb to 1000' before turning xwind
3) when departing the circuit opposite to the circuit direction, climb to 1500' before turning xwind

every instructor seems to have a different oppinion these days!

cheers!
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Old 27th Jun 2008, 07:47
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correct. except change 1000' to 1500' for high performance aircraft

also....

Climb to circuit height, then turn 45 ˚ in circuit direction if departing same direction as circuit (AIP ENR 1.1 - 59)
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Old 27th Jun 2008, 08:08
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Anyhting goes as it is now "Recommended" so yes everyone is doing whatever they please in all levels of the industry.

Welcome to Dick Smith Space!
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Old 27th Jun 2008, 11:53
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Ahhh, the non-towered aerodrome debate.

every instructor seems to have a different oppinion these days!
More instructors need to read the AIPs/Jeps. Rep, you are correct.

Climb to circuit height, then turn 45 ˚ in circuit direction if departing same direction as circuit (AIP ENR 1.1 - 59)
My understanding of this requirement is it makes your departure wider than the circuit, keeping you further away from the circuit traffic.

Follow the recommendations, but do whatever is safe and sensible.
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Old 28th Jun 2008, 11:55
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Aip Enr 59

59 Departure Information

59.1 Pilots of departing aircraft should:
a) If departing in the direction of the circuit, climb on the extended centreline to circuit height. When past the departure end of the runway continue straight ahead or make a 45 degree turn in the circuit direction

b) If departing contrary to circuit direction, pilots should wait until 500 feet above circuit height before turning and bradcast on the CTAF

So it is not AGL, but circuit height - which is not necessarily 1000 feet AGL, otherwise you would not be able to depart contrary to circuit direction at Jandakot (circuit height 900 feet AGL) outside tower hours without busting Perth CTA.

It's a worry if instructors don't know their AIPs...or the difference between "should" and "recommended"...
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Old 28th Jun 2008, 12:23
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Isn't contrary to circuit direction either 500' abv OR 3nm out?
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Old 28th Jun 2008, 12:47
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1) when staying in the circuit climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning xwind
At YRED i've been instructed to turn xwind at 500'...
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Old 28th Jun 2008, 12:55
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If you look up YCNK in the ERSA it has a similar rule.

I believe the within 300' is "unless there is a specific aerodrome procedure"

Having said that the old system used to be turning XWind at 500' AGL, so they could just still be using the old rules.
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Old 28th Jun 2008, 13:15
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1) when staying in the circuit climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning xwind
2) when departing the circuit in the circuit direction, climb to 1000' before turning xwind
3) when departing the circuit opposite to the circuit direction, climb to 1500' before turning xwind
Huh? When did this happen?

Dr
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Old 28th Jun 2008, 13:29
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About 2 1/2 years ago.

My interpretation is the procedures are aimed at having those who are remaining the circuit established at circuit height before you turn downwind. If you are not remaining in the circuit the procedures are aimed at keeping you clear of the circuit pattern.

Of course, the standard procedures do not work in every possible scenario, that is why they are recommended, it lets the pilot in command decide the safest course of action.

Same with the radio calls. If you can get the standard ones in great. If not just make the next one in the sequence, as opposed to the "I'm half way down on a wide left downwind, over Joe's house". Of course if you need to speak up do so "Tracking number 2 to ABC" etc.

Safe flying.
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 03:22
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I like the idea of following the procedure as best as you can and possibly varying if you can't for whatever reason, I don't have a problem with that.

What I DO have a problem with is the LOSERS that take it upon themselves to inform me that I haven't done the correct procedure.

ie. Yesterday, a straight in approach at CTAF, called at 9 miles, 5 miles, then 2.5, for a number of reasons. Only to be greeted with VH-XXX "the correct procedure for a straight in approach is to call at 5, 3 & 1 miles." I said thanks for that Mr. Air Traffic Control.

If you're not manly enough to say who you are on the radio when attempting to tell someone they have done the wrong thing (in your opinion), stay off the damn radio! rant over.
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 05:36
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1) when staying in the circuit climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning xwind
Remember these are only "recomended."

Its going to depend alot on the aircraft that your are flying. Some of the guys i follow around bashing the CCT fly wide eough as it is and they all turn at 500' AGL. If they waited till 700' they would be outside of the CTAF anyway!!!

Personally i reckon that the sooner you turn X-wind (of course not bellow 500AGL) the closer you stay to the RWY, the less time you are spending when you are not gonna make it back to the RWY if your donk dies.

Common sense i say, depends on where you are and what you are in.

Last edited by gettin' there; 29th Jun 2008 at 05:58.
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 06:08
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At YRED i've been instructed to turn xwind at 500'...
Pyrotek, RAC choose to do this because of noise abatement (there are a lot of loud, rich, noisy residents at Scarborough).

What I DO have a problem with is the LOSERS that take it upon themselves to inform me that I haven't done the correct procedure.

ie. Yesterday, a straight in approach at CTAF, called at 9 miles, 5 miles, then 2.5, for a number of reasons. Only to be greeted with VH-XXX "the correct procedure for a straight in approach is to call at 5, 3 & 1 miles." I said thanks for that Mr. Air Traffic Control.

If you're not manly enough to say who you are on the radio when attempting to tell someone they have done the wrong thing (in your opinion), stay off the damn radio! rant over.
If they are going to have a go at you XXX, they should learn the procedures also. There is no 5 mile call - 10, 3 & 1 only.
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 09:08
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64.6.3 A pilot should include the intention to conduct a straight−in approach
with the inbound broadcast. Further broadcasts on the
CTAF at 3NM final, and 1NM final (with intentions) should be
made.
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 09:27
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Interesting point chode - intentions for straight-in with inbound call, then you specically mention 3 and 1. I assumed 10, 5 (with intentions), 3 & 1.
Not picking at you, just temporarily confused. Because 10 is nowdays the first call versus 5...
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 09:40
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Nope... no call required at 5nm, it's just the point at which you must be established on final by.

Radio inbound with intentions for straight in at 10nm, then call 3nm and 1nm final. And give way to anyone established in the circuit (try convincing some of the people out there to do that!)
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 11:26
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I guess technically you could be established for a straight in at 50 mls out or beyond only giving calls as necessary. The word "should" & "recomended" in the regs means to me anyway that it's not B&W & as others have said it depends on a lot of variables. I hear some regionals give 5 ml calls as established as "'cap'n"' said, they have done so for many years prior to ctafs straight ins.


FG
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 12:08
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All,

Before you start blasting people for not knowing the rules, make sure you know them yourself. In addition to the AIP CTAF calls, HiCap RPT are required to announce at 15nm AND 5nm their intention to conduct a SI App. CAO 82.5 refers. So depending on what the aircraft is, it is quite conceivable that from an aircraft doing a SI App, calls at 15, 5, 3, and 1 will be made.

Anyway, I wouldn't be getting your curlies in a knot about the current CTAF calls. The washup of the PIR of NAS 2c has them being thrown out with only two mandatory calls for inbound and two for inbound. Watch this space.
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 13:38
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YHOX today
VH-XXX "hoxton blah bla, 5 miles west inbound at 1700 ft"
VH-XXX "hoxton blah 3 miles west inbound at 1700 ft
VH-XXX "above runway 34 at 1700 will descend to circuit on the dead side"
VH-XXX "turning downind on the dead side of circuit and descending"
VH-XXX "joining circuit crosswind 34 blah blah
tunring downwind call, turning base call, turning final call...

thats was enough, but worst of all, there were 2 aircraft doing the exact same calls!!!! both within about 1 minute of each other! with me joining the circuit as well, there would have been no chance of a 4th aircraft to get even 1 call in! i was struggling to find a gap in the constant commentary to get my standard calls in!
throw in their accents, and the situation was beyond a joke!
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Old 29th Jun 2008, 22:28
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VH-XXX "hoxton blah bla, 5 miles west inbound at 1700 ft"
VH-XXX "hoxton blah 3 miles west inbound at 1700 ft
VH-XXX "above runway 34 at 1700 will descend to circuit on the dead side"
VH-XXX "turning downind on the dead side of circuit and descending"
VH-XXX "joining circuit crosswind 34 blah blah
tunring downwind call, turning base call, turning final call...
Why so many calls? It amazes me why pilots are taught to give radio calls overhead and then the dead side - joining crosswind is enough. Common sense applies though if you are trying to avoid a collision (however, most times this is not the case).

My favourite poor CTAF call is the departure call (which is not found in the recommended radio calls). "Caboolture traffic, Cessna 172 ABC, departed 48, tracking 220 for Warwick, passing 1600 climbing to 3500, estimate Warwick time 30".

The problem is some pilots/instructors seem to get confused with an IFR departure report from the AIPs/Jeps. CTAF depature calls are good at times, don't get me wrong, but who cares what time you are going to be at an aerodrome many miles away? Inbound calls with circuit estimates are a different kettle of fish.

Learn the procedures, use common sense. Don't speak sh#t.
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