teachers getting richer
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Don't get me wrong...
I'd rather run a team of drunken Kiwi Shearers, than teach kids...
However, just say teachers work 8am to 6pm (and not 8:30 to 3:30 as I reckon most do) then have to cop the odd parent/teacher interview/ footy/cultural/music excursion etc... it is a small price to pay for the PAID 13 WEEKS HOLIDAY EACH AND EVERY YEAR...PLUS PUBLIC HOLIDAYS AND NO WEEKEND OR ON CALL WORK. Then add to that the extra one to two weeks off every year for "professional development" and "travel days" plus generous extended maternity entitlements, and I reckon teachers have it pretty good. Lucky their pay-rise is not "productivity related" as evidenced by the rapidly declining standards in literacy and numeracy.
Just look at some of the spelling on here!
I'd rather run a team of drunken Kiwi Shearers, than teach kids...
However, just say teachers work 8am to 6pm (and not 8:30 to 3:30 as I reckon most do) then have to cop the odd parent/teacher interview/ footy/cultural/music excursion etc... it is a small price to pay for the PAID 13 WEEKS HOLIDAY EACH AND EVERY YEAR...PLUS PUBLIC HOLIDAYS AND NO WEEKEND OR ON CALL WORK. Then add to that the extra one to two weeks off every year for "professional development" and "travel days" plus generous extended maternity entitlements, and I reckon teachers have it pretty good. Lucky their pay-rise is not "productivity related" as evidenced by the rapidly declining standards in literacy and numeracy.
Just look at some of the spelling on here!
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'BK' at least teachers wouldn't normally be wearing 'gumboot's when you shear 'em !
I agree teachers do get it better than in our profession but I still wouldn't want to be one in a 'strapless' society we have these days.
And yes the spelling is atrocious, shocking (where's the spelling Nazi's when ya need 'em?) in here 'BK' but then again I don't believe too many people have died in a plane crash piloted by poor spelling pilots!
CW
I agree teachers do get it better than in our profession but I still wouldn't want to be one in a 'strapless' society we have these days.
And yes the spelling is atrocious, shocking (where's the spelling Nazi's when ya need 'em?) in here 'BK' but then again I don't believe too many people have died in a plane crash piloted by poor spelling pilots!
CW
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Ask a teacher
I asked two teachers I know about this payrise and got two mixed results. One told me that the level of work depends almost entirely on where you teach. The less well off the suburb, the hell of alot harder you work.
The other said it's great for the one's who put in and do the 8 'til 4:30 (she said anyone still at the school after 4:30 is lost and not a member of teaching staff) but unfortunately there are more of the 9 to 3's than the the first mentioned. This has caused a bit of friction as hard working one's resent the turn up for my shift only type's.
This is supposed to be because of a recent shift in the type of people applying to teaching degree's. I have it on good advice that alot of teaching degree students are in the course because,
A, All their friends applied for it.
B, I didn't know what else to do.
C, I didn't score high enough for electical engineering so I had to pick something.
D, My parents said I would get lots of holidays and you don't have to be too smart to pass. (that came from a teacher!)
It's not only teaching but all govt jobs are having a very hard time recruiting. The Vicpol have advertised for the first time in recent memory. So have ambo's and firies. I saw and Army add last week trying to make blanket counters look like infantry!
I think the pay rise is more about retention than giving in to union pressure.
The other said it's great for the one's who put in and do the 8 'til 4:30 (she said anyone still at the school after 4:30 is lost and not a member of teaching staff) but unfortunately there are more of the 9 to 3's than the the first mentioned. This has caused a bit of friction as hard working one's resent the turn up for my shift only type's.
This is supposed to be because of a recent shift in the type of people applying to teaching degree's. I have it on good advice that alot of teaching degree students are in the course because,
A, All their friends applied for it.
B, I didn't know what else to do.
C, I didn't score high enough for electical engineering so I had to pick something.
D, My parents said I would get lots of holidays and you don't have to be too smart to pass. (that came from a teacher!)
It's not only teaching but all govt jobs are having a very hard time recruiting. The Vicpol have advertised for the first time in recent memory. So have ambo's and firies. I saw and Army add last week trying to make blanket counters look like infantry!
I think the pay rise is more about retention than giving in to union pressure.
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Unfortunately teaching is a profession that has been in a state of degradation for the past 50 years. They get precious little respect and who would do it for the starting salary of 46k after 4 years study when private sector jobs are offering that for practically nil experience
? If teachers don't strike how else can they negotiate pay? Remember too, the better the pay the more competition for spots and the more talented people chosen. I'd prefer my kids are taught by well motivated people in small classes than by someone with no incentive in a class of 30+. If that means a bit of short term inconvenience so be it.
And don't forget education starts at home, your kidding yourself if you think your child can learn from school alone with no input at home.
? If teachers don't strike how else can they negotiate pay? Remember too, the better the pay the more competition for spots and the more talented people chosen. I'd prefer my kids are taught by well motivated people in small classes than by someone with no incentive in a class of 30+. If that means a bit of short term inconvenience so be it.
And don't forget education starts at home, your kidding yourself if you think your child can learn from school alone with no input at home.
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So true Driscoll
A good friend of mine (who has gone back to uni this year as the degree he finished 18 months ago didn't get him a job with a living wage) informed me his mate from high school who just finished a mining/engineering degree just started on 200k! Doctors don't even start on that.
Who would be a teacher with that sort of money getting thrown around.
Getting back to an aviation side of things, who's flying instructor had more than 2 years experience? I know this is an aviation specific thing but if the flying schools payed only the AWARD wage, then alot more instructors would be willing to stay. I didn't even speak to a grade 1 until my CPL pre licence, who ended up having to fix a few bad habits that the 3's had let me get away with (not their fault they just didn't have the hours). Could have saved me few bucks if I'd flown with them earlier.
Anyone else have an opinion on this?
Who would be a teacher with that sort of money getting thrown around.
Getting back to an aviation side of things, who's flying instructor had more than 2 years experience? I know this is an aviation specific thing but if the flying schools payed only the AWARD wage, then alot more instructors would be willing to stay. I didn't even speak to a grade 1 until my CPL pre licence, who ended up having to fix a few bad habits that the 3's had let me get away with (not their fault they just didn't have the hours). Could have saved me few bucks if I'd flown with them earlier.
Anyone else have an opinion on this?
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Teacher Pay Scales
Much has been made about the four years training taken to qualify as a teacher. A toolmaker, the guy who makes just about every part of the mechanical bits and pieces of the aircraft we fly takes four years to get to be a fitter machinist (Fitter and Turner for the elderly among us) and then another year to become a toolmaker. They get paid a pittance in comparison to teachers, many of whom cannot spell or if they can they don't correct the spelling errors in assignments. If a toolmaker buggers up a job, what has he got? Usually a lump of scrap metal which could have been worth tens of thousands of dollars (e.g. a complex injection mould). I don't know any toolmaker who gets the amount of paid time off per year that a teacher enjoys. Most teachers I know are great people and some even feel a bit guilty about their relatively generous pay and conditions. We all have a role to play in life and very few can justifiably claim to deserve to be put on a pedestal.
Evertonian
If a toolmaker buggers up a job, what has he got? Usually a lump of scrap metal
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Teaching never used to be a degree
Old Fella,
As the heading states, teaching only became a degree when they shrouded the curriculum in rubbish. Nurses never needed a degree once upon a time and I reckon they still don't need one now. Nor do I think teachers need one. A diploma used to do the trick and thousands of people got a meaningful education and health care under that system. Have a look through the paper. Secretary needed, only tertiary qualified people to apply. A degree for a secretary? What the
! Do they transpose formulae for the weekly planning meeting?
Mr old fella, the time you lived in was much more rational and level headed, unfortunately we will never return there.
PS A young bloke who works part time with me asked what education he needed for a full time position. I told him a pass in english and maths at year 12 was the minimum. He said that he had a High School Certificate. I asked what his results were and he said again that he had the ceritficate. I explained to him that having a piece of paper didn't mean a pass and he told me that it was. I asked him again what result did you get for the 2 subjects. E's he told me with delight. "That isn't a pass" I told him. He became quite agitated and told me I didn't know what I was talking about. "No, your careers advisor is telling you porky pies" I informed him to which he told me to go jump in the lake is the nicest way I can put it.
Don't blame the kids for being thick. The teachers fuel the fire!
As the heading states, teaching only became a degree when they shrouded the curriculum in rubbish. Nurses never needed a degree once upon a time and I reckon they still don't need one now. Nor do I think teachers need one. A diploma used to do the trick and thousands of people got a meaningful education and health care under that system. Have a look through the paper. Secretary needed, only tertiary qualified people to apply. A degree for a secretary? What the
! Do they transpose formulae for the weekly planning meeting?Mr old fella, the time you lived in was much more rational and level headed, unfortunately we will never return there.
PS A young bloke who works part time with me asked what education he needed for a full time position. I told him a pass in english and maths at year 12 was the minimum. He said that he had a High School Certificate. I asked what his results were and he said again that he had the ceritficate. I explained to him that having a piece of paper didn't mean a pass and he told me that it was. I asked him again what result did you get for the 2 subjects. E's he told me with delight. "That isn't a pass" I told him. He became quite agitated and told me I didn't know what I was talking about. "No, your careers advisor is telling you porky pies" I informed him to which he told me to go jump in the lake is the nicest way I can put it.
Don't blame the kids for being thick. The teachers fuel the fire!
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Crank1000, all you need to do to pass year 12 subjects is show up, nobody fails. Everyone is now graded with a view to a Tertiary Entrance Rank which notionally ranks them on a scale of 100 with everyone in the country.
Old fella, it's attitudes like yours that have resulted in todays education standards. Personally I'd rather have the best people teaching whether at Primary School or Med School than someone who's settled on it because it was easier than what they wanted to do.
Old fella, it's attitudes like yours that have resulted in todays education standards. Personally I'd rather have the best people teaching whether at Primary School or Med School than someone who's settled on it because it was easier than what they wanted to do.
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Pathways
driscoll,
I've been informed in Vic you can do a thing pathways which is designed for the trade oriented student. You dont even get a uni entrance score for it! You do trade subjects.(metal and woodwork) instead of History, geography etc. When I was at school in the late 80's they were hard subjects to pass. Now they are deemed soft and irrelevant.
Read an article in the Sun where an office girl complained that there weren't any "real men" in the office as none of them could change her flat tyre!
Metrosexual rule!
I've been informed in Vic you can do a thing pathways which is designed for the trade oriented student. You dont even get a uni entrance score for it! You do trade subjects.(metal and woodwork) instead of History, geography etc. When I was at school in the late 80's they were hard subjects to pass. Now they are deemed soft and irrelevant.
Read an article in the Sun where an office girl complained that there weren't any "real men" in the office as none of them could change her flat tyre!
Metrosexual rule!
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crank1000,
Think you are a bit harsh on the pathways program. Not everyone is an academic and it gives them a chance to learn useful skills to help them outside of school much like tech schools use to do. Unfortunately their demise and the "everyone must finish yr 12 and go to Uni" philosophy has resulted in a skills shortage as everyone gets BS degrees thinking that they are more worthwhile than a trade. Agree completely that standards have slipped, unfortunately there are far too many reasons for that and I don't think it will improve anytime soon.
Think you are a bit harsh on the pathways program. Not everyone is an academic and it gives them a chance to learn useful skills to help them outside of school much like tech schools use to do. Unfortunately their demise and the "everyone must finish yr 12 and go to Uni" philosophy has resulted in a skills shortage as everyone gets BS degrees thinking that they are more worthwhile than a trade. Agree completely that standards have slipped, unfortunately there are far too many reasons for that and I don't think it will improve anytime soon.
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Teachers, Toolmakers, Degree etc
Driscoll, I fail to see why my attitude has led to the standard of teacher we have today, (your words). My concern is solely that teachers, via their actions, seem to believe that they are to be held in higher esteem than many others who study just as hard and continue to learn throughout their career to keep apace with change. I use toolmakers as an example because both my son and grandson are in that trade. As for the comment of Buster Hyman, very funny if it was not so inane. Like many others, Buster probably thinks Toolmakers make screwdrivers and pliers etc. They in fact are highly skilled and I am just pleased I was employed as an aviator rather than in the toolmaking trades. Crank1000 is correct, sadly. We do live in a different world now than when I was a much younger man. School teachers have contributed to the lack of discipline of the younger generations by their approach which in turn has led to a lack of respect for authority. The "do-gooders" of the world may not like it, but a good smack on the hands with a cane or a smack on the rump never caused too much harm, but it sure made one think twice about the consequences of ones actions.
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Your right Driscoll
I should wind my head in a bit. As you say not everyone is an academic and should be given all the opportunities they deserve. I was just a little annoyed that trade subjects are now considered to be for the "dumb kids" only.
It's a very complicated subject and I dont think any of the aswers are going to be found soon. Lets hope the people who do make the decisions get it right.
It's a very complicated subject and I dont think any of the aswers are going to be found soon. Lets hope the people who do make the decisions get it right.
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Old Fella, my belief is that as long as teaching isn't a career people aspire to the standard of teachers will never rise.
I don't doubt that your Son and Grandson are as talented as many teachers, I just don't agree that that should be the natural order of things. Soon schools won't be able to turn out garbo's let alone toolmakers, and forget altogether about doctors. I don't want to belittle anyones occupation but surely teaching whether primary, secondary or graduate should holder a higher status than it currently does.
At the moment it is only idealistic types who are not concerned about the pay that are keeping things from really going down hill. Some universities accept primary teaching applicants with entrance ranks in the mid 50's, ie barely above average, and with below average passes in English.
These acceptance ranks are, among other factors, directly influenced by demand for positions. Clearly the talented people don't want to be teachers. Why? There is no incentive other than the leave, but that doesn't pay the bills. It's a moot point because it will never happen but at this stage the only way to lift standards is to make teaching a lucrative and sought after career (fat chance).
I don't expect everyone to agree with me but I just personally feel that a quality education is priceless and I am more than happy for my taxes to end up in teachers' pockets.
As for discipline I agree whole heartedly that a smack never caused great harm, and I know most teachers would be glad to dish the odd one out, but, like a bit of biffo in footy, those days are long gone.
My advice to all, take the time to read to your kids and encourage a thirst for knowledge at a young age. Self directed learning will be the way of the future so introduce them to libraries, museums, galleries etc when they are young and hope that something grabs their imagination.
It is amazing how many people blame teachers for their kids poor literacy and numeracy when their kids evenings and weekends consist of nothing more than sitting in front of the idiot box.
I don't doubt that your Son and Grandson are as talented as many teachers, I just don't agree that that should be the natural order of things. Soon schools won't be able to turn out garbo's let alone toolmakers, and forget altogether about doctors. I don't want to belittle anyones occupation but surely teaching whether primary, secondary or graduate should holder a higher status than it currently does.
At the moment it is only idealistic types who are not concerned about the pay that are keeping things from really going down hill. Some universities accept primary teaching applicants with entrance ranks in the mid 50's, ie barely above average, and with below average passes in English.
These acceptance ranks are, among other factors, directly influenced by demand for positions. Clearly the talented people don't want to be teachers. Why? There is no incentive other than the leave, but that doesn't pay the bills. It's a moot point because it will never happen but at this stage the only way to lift standards is to make teaching a lucrative and sought after career (fat chance).
I don't expect everyone to agree with me but I just personally feel that a quality education is priceless and I am more than happy for my taxes to end up in teachers' pockets.
As for discipline I agree whole heartedly that a smack never caused great harm, and I know most teachers would be glad to dish the odd one out, but, like a bit of biffo in footy, those days are long gone.
My advice to all, take the time to read to your kids and encourage a thirst for knowledge at a young age. Self directed learning will be the way of the future so introduce them to libraries, museums, galleries etc when they are young and hope that something grabs their imagination.
It is amazing how many people blame teachers for their kids poor literacy and numeracy when their kids evenings and weekends consist of nothing more than sitting in front of the idiot box.
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Punishment or lack of it at schools or at home is where the real problem lies with unruely kids & perhaps why the teaching profession isn't as well respected as it was a few generations ago. Think about this for a moment. The leaders of the worlds most powerful countries & pretty well all the more senior Pollies where most likely born, brought up & disciplined in an ear where being delt with via the hand/strap for misbehaving was normal.
We (as in society) are now paying for that lack of the above by way of crime from offenders as young as junior school kids who are now being taught that their untouchable! Fix the core problems such as once again administering some form of discipline then perhaps teaching will once again be a respected & a wanting profession.
I guess a slight thread drift here but it's (lack of discipline) starting to creep into a few posts here.
CW
We (as in society) are now paying for that lack of the above by way of crime from offenders as young as junior school kids who are now being taught that their untouchable! Fix the core problems such as once again administering some form of discipline then perhaps teaching will once again be a respected & a wanting profession.
I guess a slight thread drift here but it's (lack of discipline) starting to creep into a few posts here.
CW
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They get precious little respect and who would do it for the starting salary of 46k after 4 years study
Get real.
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So study to be a teacher???
46k for 4 years study aint a bad gig. I'd have been over the moon with that.
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Teaching and Learning
Driscoll, I do not for an instant think that all, or even most, teachers are desirous of being put on a pedestal. The great majority are hard working and dedicated. My concern is that the Teacher's Federation of NSW is run by a bunch of "red raggers" who, to me at least, do not have the best interests of the students at heart but rather their own self interest. Teachers, just like many others are usually in the job because they saw it as a desirable occupation to be in with generous pay and conditions. I agree that for the teaching fraternity to be seen as attractive it has to have good salaries and conditions. So also does the medical profession, aviation, metal trades etc etc. Much of the blame for the shortage of skilled tradesmen has to lay at the feet of those who deemed it as almost mandatory for all students to complete Year 12. The fact that many of them would have been better served by leaving after Year 10 and taking up an apprenticeship seems to have been ignored by the advocates of staying until completion of the HSC, which itself is almost farcical. Only a portion of Test marks goes to the overall outcome, the rest being the outcome of assessments. Let's get back to accepting that not everyone has to be highly academically qualified to be successful.
Last edited by Old Fella; 10th May 2008 at 04:25.