The old chestnut - IFR at night
When you live....
Thread Starter
The old chestnut - IFR at night
....but a different take/opinion required.
Does the holder of a PIFR with night rating have any recency requirements for flight at night?
Given that flight under the PIFR has no hard recency requirements I can't see how 3 take-offs and landings in 90 days is required in order to carry passengers. (It could then also be argued that 3 take off and landings in 90 days is not required for day flights either!).
Does the holder of CIR have any requirements to have completed 3 t&l in 90 days at night prior to carrying passengers at night?
I can't see anything other than section 14 of the CAO talks about 'flight under NVFR procedures' but (and this may have been done before) what part of an IFR flight is a NVFR procdure? (Never understood why you would do this other than to avoid charges and perhaps commence descent LSALT earlier?)
Anyone got a definitive answer? Is this a hole in the regs or an intended situation or am I missing something?
Cheers, UTR.
Does the holder of a PIFR with night rating have any recency requirements for flight at night?
Given that flight under the PIFR has no hard recency requirements I can't see how 3 take-offs and landings in 90 days is required in order to carry passengers. (It could then also be argued that 3 take off and landings in 90 days is not required for day flights either!).
Does the holder of CIR have any requirements to have completed 3 t&l in 90 days at night prior to carrying passengers at night?
I can't see anything other than section 14 of the CAO talks about 'flight under NVFR procedures' but (and this may have been done before) what part of an IFR flight is a NVFR procdure? (Never understood why you would do this other than to avoid charges and perhaps commence descent LSALT earlier?)
Anyone got a definitive answer? Is this a hole in the regs or an intended situation or am I missing something?
Cheers, UTR.
Does the holder of a PIFR with night rating have any recency requirements for flight at night?
Table 3, Flight tests for the issue of FPA
Section 5 (Night FPA)
b) determining whether an aircraft may be flown
under the I.F.R. at night
under the I.F.R. at night
CAO 40.2.1
Priveleges and Limitations
14 Flight by night under night V.F.R. procedures
14.1 A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the
rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in
command, or co-pilot, using the navigation aids endorsed in the holder’s
personal log book in the following circumstances:
(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided
the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements
applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.
14.1 A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the
rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in
command, or co-pilot, using the navigation aids endorsed in the holder’s
personal log book in the following circumstances:
(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided
the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements
applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.
Does the holder of CIR have any requirements to have completed 3 t&l in 90 days at night prior to carrying passengers at night?
what part of an IFR flight is a NVFR procdure?
Are you just looking for a way around the rules?
Remember JFK Jr???? Guess who wasn't current?
This really is a no brainer.
When you live....
Thread Starter
MakeItHappenCaptain,
Thanks for the taking the time (although you needn't have bothered with the final jibes) but I don't think you've answered the questions.
There are differences between a Command Instrument Rating and the 'Instrument Flight Rules' - the latter dictate how a particular flight is to be conducted and, to my thinking, have nothing to do with anything prior to the flight (planning requirements excepted).
So in both cases nothing you've written actually stacks up to a requirement for 3 TO&L in the last 90 days before flying IFR at night. In the PIFR case, I am subject to IFR rules but not CIR recency requirements - this is clearly spelt out in the same CAO 40.2.3 (Section 6.2(b)) so your argument doesn't hold.
In the CIR case, if I am not using NVFR procedures (i.e. can only descend below the MSA/calculated LSALT within the circling area and not within 3NM) then the quoted paragraph doesn't apply.
I don't think it's a no brainer - and no, I'm not looking for a way out. Am planning a flight and got to wondering on the technical ifs and not nots. (I'm also in work/study avoidance mode)
UTR
Thanks for the taking the time (although you needn't have bothered with the final jibes) but I don't think you've answered the questions.
There are differences between a Command Instrument Rating and the 'Instrument Flight Rules' - the latter dictate how a particular flight is to be conducted and, to my thinking, have nothing to do with anything prior to the flight (planning requirements excepted).
So in both cases nothing you've written actually stacks up to a requirement for 3 TO&L in the last 90 days before flying IFR at night. In the PIFR case, I am subject to IFR rules but not CIR recency requirements - this is clearly spelt out in the same CAO 40.2.3 (Section 6.2(b)) so your argument doesn't hold.
In the CIR case, if I am not using NVFR procedures (i.e. can only descend below the MSA/calculated LSALT within the circling area and not within 3NM) then the quoted paragraph doesn't apply.
I don't think it's a no brainer - and no, I'm not looking for a way out. Am planning a flight and got to wondering on the technical ifs and not nots. (I'm also in work/study avoidance mode)
UTR
UnderneathTheRadar,
You are 100% right in saying that the rules with regards to night recency for IFR flight seem segmented and insufficient. Below is my interpretation albeit from a CIR prospective.
While on the subject what is other Ppruner's view on the PIFR? I have always seen the recency requirements as lacking and bordering on dangerous. Is it ok to leave appraisal of ones ability to undertake a flight entirely to the pilot whom is possibly inexperienced and in out of his or her depth?
Hope this helps
MHA
You are 100% right in saying that the rules with regards to night recency for IFR flight seem segmented and insufficient. Below is my interpretation albeit from a CIR prospective.
- Firstly, If the flight is undertaken wholly under the IFR then NVFR regs and limitations cannot be applied.
- In the I.R. CAO there is no night recency requirements for flights undertaken under the IFR.
- The recency requirement of 3 take off and landings at night or day depending on wether the proposed flight is at night or not for carriage of passengers does apply. It does not appear in the CAO as it is not a restriction on the Instrument Rating It is a restriction on your pilots licence (PPL/CPL/ATPL) and therefore appears in the CAR's. Ref: CAR 5.82 Private (aeroplane) pilot: recent experience requirements.
While on the subject what is other Ppruner's view on the PIFR? I have always seen the recency requirements as lacking and bordering on dangerous. Is it ok to leave appraisal of ones ability to undertake a flight entirely to the pilot whom is possibly inexperienced and in out of his or her depth?
Hope this helps
MHA
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I think we've covered all the bases here, but a small aside based on MIHCs comment:
This is technically true, as you can acquire a CIR endorsed for "Day Only" operations. My understanding though is that such an endorsement is usually only applied in a case where the pilot has a particular medical issue or other reason for not being able to fly at night, rather than simply choosing to test for a limited rating.
Consequently, unless you are one of those particular people, you would need to have an NVFR rating in order to accrue the 5 hours night command required for you to sit the CIR flight test.
Interesting to note also that this particular recency requirement has been a problem to a limited degree in my company lately - during daylight savings time night ops are reduced substantially and it becomes possible for pilots to miss recency requirements, resulting in circuit time with a training captain!
You can hold a CIR without a NVFR.
Consequently, unless you are one of those particular people, you would need to have an NVFR rating in order to accrue the 5 hours night command required for you to sit the CIR flight test.
Interesting to note also that this particular recency requirement has been a problem to a limited degree in my company lately - during daylight savings time night ops are reduced substantially and it becomes possible for pilots to miss recency requirements, resulting in circuit time with a training captain!
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While on the subject what is other Ppruner's view on the PIFR?
Hmmm, not often I am worng, and even less often that I will admit it - must be getting old!
Dr
Icarus53,
You are correct about the Day only I.R. being limited to those with their medical certificates restricted to day only Ops, however it is possible to obtain an IR without a NVFR rating. The required 5 hrs night PIC for the issue of a the Instrument Rating can be obtained by provision of CAR 5.80 Private (aeroplane) pilot: rating required (2).
This CAR allows pilots to obtain night command time, whilst flying in the traffic pattern, without holding a NVFR rating subject to certain training d supervision requirements.
Many of the international colleges go down this route and it appears to becoming increasing popular with local students. Not a bad thing in my opinion saves a few bob and the advantages of holding a NVFR rating when you hold a MECIR are few.
MHA
You are correct about the Day only I.R. being limited to those with their medical certificates restricted to day only Ops, however it is possible to obtain an IR without a NVFR rating. The required 5 hrs night PIC for the issue of a the Instrument Rating can be obtained by provision of CAR 5.80 Private (aeroplane) pilot: rating required (2).
This CAR allows pilots to obtain night command time, whilst flying in the traffic pattern, without holding a NVFR rating subject to certain training d supervision requirements.
Many of the international colleges go down this route and it appears to becoming increasing popular with local students. Not a bad thing in my opinion saves a few bob and the advantages of holding a NVFR rating when you hold a MECIR are few.
MHA
UTR. A holder of a PIFR with night rating does have the same requirements in regards to passengers as any one else. These are stipulated in CAR 5.82 1 (b) assuming they have a ppl. If they have a cpl it is stipulated under CAR 5.109 1 (b). That is where the 3 take off and landings have come from, no mention at all in the CAO's. Cheers
The CAR overrides the CAO in that, regardless of whether you operate VFR or IFR, to fly at night with pax, you must have the 3 t/os and ldgs.
Very early on in the same part of the CAR is a section which is titled something along the lines of "Night operations for the purpose of obtaining a CIR," which is what allows schools to do night circuits to gain the 5 hours of night command.
NOTE: I hold a MECIR, but no NVFR. I may fly at night, provided my CIR is current, and that I operate, and remain under IFR from start to shutdown i.e. I cannot downgrade to NVFR, unless I meet the minimums under "Flight under NVFR procedures."
PIFR has a "NIGHT" box (for an FPA) which can be ticked on the application form, so I would suggest:
1) READ the PIFR CAAP. If the answer is not in here, and you do not have "Night" written under your PIFR on your licence, you most likely cannot operate night IFR.
2) Check with CASA. Just send em an email. You should get a response within a couple of weeks explaining their view on it.
Very early on in the same part of the CAR is a section which is titled something along the lines of "Night operations for the purpose of obtaining a CIR," which is what allows schools to do night circuits to gain the 5 hours of night command.
NOTE: I hold a MECIR, but no NVFR. I may fly at night, provided my CIR is current, and that I operate, and remain under IFR from start to shutdown i.e. I cannot downgrade to NVFR, unless I meet the minimums under "Flight under NVFR procedures."
PIFR has a "NIGHT" box (for an FPA) which can be ticked on the application form, so I would suggest:
1) READ the PIFR CAAP. If the answer is not in here, and you do not have "Night" written under your PIFR on your licence, you most likely cannot operate night IFR.
2) Check with CASA. Just send em an email. You should get a response within a couple of weeks explaining their view on it.
There are differences between a Command Instrument Rating and the 'Instrument Flight Rules'
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MHA,
Yep, you've got me there - I suppose when you're just trying to get to the CIR on a programmed course, there's no reason to go via the NVFR if you can get the command time "under supervision" as it were.
Cheers,
Icarus
Yep, you've got me there - I suppose when you're just trying to get to the CIR on a programmed course, there's no reason to go via the NVFR if you can get the command time "under supervision" as it were.
Cheers,
Icarus
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Icarus, there are a few reasons to get the NVFR anyway. One of them is that it is perpetual, and although there are recency requirements, the rating itself doesn't lapse like an instrument rating.
So if one was to go into instructing (for which an instrument or night rating is a prerequisite) and unsure about the amount of instrument or night flying one would do, a NVFR would be a guarantee that there would be no sudden end to the instructor priviledges due to a lapsing instrument rating..
So if one was to go into instructing (for which an instrument or night rating is a prerequisite) and unsure about the amount of instrument or night flying one would do, a NVFR would be a guarantee that there would be no sudden end to the instructor priviledges due to a lapsing instrument rating..
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Remember JFK Jr???? Guess who wasn't current?
I stand to be corrected if necessary.
I vaguely remember reading an extract from the Accident Investigation report into the abovementioned. Seem to recollect that JFK Jnr had neither an Instrument Rating or a NVFR.
I stand to be corrected if necessary.
I stand to be corrected if necessary.
Could be wrong on JFK, thought he had a NVFR (or whatever the equivalent is over there - Aust is the only country with a NVFR or so I've heard. Clarification?), but either way, he still wasn't current.
The point was that the rules are there for a reason and people who don't abide are more likely to end up the same way.
UTR-Sorry for the perceived attitude. It's more a case of several comments that together appear to have a different tack. Aware you are not trying to bend the rules and apologise for any insinuation to that effect.
I would like to put forward the thought track that you are landing "visually" at night and so the NVFR currency rules should definitely apply, but that isn't the design of the rules. (Nod to Cap'n Arrr)
The point was that the rules are there for a reason and people who don't abide are more likely to end up the same way.
UTR-Sorry for the perceived attitude. It's more a case of several comments that together appear to have a different tack. Aware you are not trying to bend the rules and apologise for any insinuation to that effect.
I would like to put forward the thought track that you are landing "visually" at night and so the NVFR currency rules should definitely apply, but that isn't the design of the rules. (Nod to Cap'n Arrr)
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No such thing as NVFR in the US. You are required to complete night flying as part of your PPL syllabus and consequently, any PPL holder is qualified to fly at night.
I remember coming back from the US and thinking "Struth, you mean I have to sit a separate test to be able to fly at night?" These days I tend to wonder how I managed to not kill myself flying in the US with only minimal night dual training and limited discussion on night navigation techniques/LSAlts etc. I'm sure that's not the standard applied throughout the US, but goes to show that you can get through without the right knowledge under that system.
I remember coming back from the US and thinking "Struth, you mean I have to sit a separate test to be able to fly at night?" These days I tend to wonder how I managed to not kill myself flying in the US with only minimal night dual training and limited discussion on night navigation techniques/LSAlts etc. I'm sure that's not the standard applied throughout the US, but goes to show that you can get through without the right knowledge under that system.
his included years ago a Ansett first officer who logged over 2400 hours of alleged instrument flight time as part of his 5000 hours total. It got him a job with a major foreign carrier where he made his millions