Merged: Nomad Return?
I like the Nomad, especially the 24 - it looks right.
Perhaps if they beefed up the tail area, popped a little extra fuel capacity in somewhere and got a few more knots and extra power (if this option didn't make it prohibitively expensive) by bolting on a couple of of PT6's in it could be even better.
To those who say Aus isn't 'big' enough to have its own aviation industry I say bollocks. Sweden produces SAAB's (9 million people). Switzerland produces Pilatus' (7.5 million). Holland produced until recently Fokkers (15 million). Australia has 21,000 people. Canada has a few more than Aus (33,000) but produces a wide range of Bombardier (DeHav Canada) aircraft from turbo props (Dash 8s) to corporate jets (Learjets, CRJ's etc etc) to airliners (the new 100 seat thingy).
And to those who say the Nomad is a problem because it's too slow I also say bollocks. When your hauling tourists around the Kimberleys or the Grand Canyon or freight in Africa, speed isn't really an issue. Ther IS a huge market for this category of aircraft. Why else would investors be restarting the (more expensive) Twin Otter production line.
Good luck Gippsland. Go get 'em. You will experience nay-sayers (it's so easy to be smugly derisive) but rise above this as you have with the G8. There IS success to be had.
Perhaps if they beefed up the tail area, popped a little extra fuel capacity in somewhere and got a few more knots and extra power (if this option didn't make it prohibitively expensive) by bolting on a couple of of PT6's in it could be even better.
To those who say Aus isn't 'big' enough to have its own aviation industry I say bollocks. Sweden produces SAAB's (9 million people). Switzerland produces Pilatus' (7.5 million). Holland produced until recently Fokkers (15 million). Australia has 21,000 people. Canada has a few more than Aus (33,000) but produces a wide range of Bombardier (DeHav Canada) aircraft from turbo props (Dash 8s) to corporate jets (Learjets, CRJ's etc etc) to airliners (the new 100 seat thingy).
And to those who say the Nomad is a problem because it's too slow I also say bollocks. When your hauling tourists around the Kimberleys or the Grand Canyon or freight in Africa, speed isn't really an issue. Ther IS a huge market for this category of aircraft. Why else would investors be restarting the (more expensive) Twin Otter production line.
Good luck Gippsland. Go get 'em. You will experience nay-sayers (it's so easy to be smugly derisive) but rise above this as you have with the G8. There IS success to be had.
Al, does Australia really only have 21,000 people?? 
And all this time I thought we had about 21,000,000......
And all this time I thought we had about 21,000,000......
Silly Old Git
The wing could be cleaned up it doesnt need all that crap hanging off the thing could never be described as STOL
If it had some decent brakes it would stop fast enough
Unless theyve managed to solve the problems with the new Allison bung on PT6s
If it had some decent brakes it would stop fast enough
Unless theyve managed to solve the problems with the new Allison bung on PT6s
AustralianMade
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Out in the weather!
Age: 54
Posts: 917
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Al
The critics abound - in every walk of life - and the Tall Poppy Syndrome is strongest in Australia. I wish GipAir all the best with the Nomad and hope to see it become a success story... despite the knockers.
The critics abound - in every walk of life - and the Tall Poppy Syndrome is strongest in Australia. I wish GipAir all the best with the Nomad and hope to see it become a success story... despite the knockers.
Silly Old Git
One would have thought that there is a market beyond these shores....
Does anyone recall the Chinese copy made after a team from
China were allowed to run an abacus over an N22 in OZ?
Had a pair of YumCha radials ?
Does anyone recall the Chinese copy made after a team from
China were allowed to run an abacus over an N22 in OZ?
Had a pair of YumCha radials ?
China were allowed to run an abacus over an N22 in OZ?
Had a pair of YumCha radials ?
Moderator
The wing could be cleaned up it doesnt need all that crap hanging off the thing could never be described as STOL
couple of considerations ...
(a) for civil, there is no such thing as serious STOL .. the aircraft still has to meet the normal design standards .. military is a different matter .. so those who have flown the civil variant haven't seen its STOL capability. One needs to keep in mind that real STOL operations involve a moderately increased risk of mishap, especially if the noise stops ... I have been in the back for some serious performance landing trials .. and the numbers are more than respectable .. while being more than a tad terrified .. OK it was good fun... but definitely not your average Chieftain landing.
(b) the lateral control system is comparatively sophisticated .. not many comparable birds around which can stooge about at Nomad speeds ...
couple of considerations ...
(a) for civil, there is no such thing as serious STOL .. the aircraft still has to meet the normal design standards .. military is a different matter .. so those who have flown the civil variant haven't seen its STOL capability. One needs to keep in mind that real STOL operations involve a moderately increased risk of mishap, especially if the noise stops ... I have been in the back for some serious performance landing trials .. and the numbers are more than respectable .. while being more than a tad terrified .. OK it was good fun... but definitely not your average Chieftain landing.
(b) the lateral control system is comparatively sophisticated .. not many comparable birds around which can stooge about at Nomad speeds ...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would be surprised if it was "cleaned up a bit" as you put it. It will simply cost too much to change it.
The quickest and cheapest way to get this machine to market is to make it exactly like the previous models, fit new engines and dash etc and get it out there. Changes should be kept for later.
The quickest and cheapest way to get this machine to market is to make it exactly like the previous models, fit new engines and dash etc and get it out there. Changes should be kept for later.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BackofBourke
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was an attempt to "clean up a bit" the Caribou some years ago and place them on the Australian civil register. Trouble was in the end they would barely uplift four passengers.
There are a few coffee cup engineers here.
There are a few coffee cup engineers here.
Silly Old Git
so those who have flown the civil variant haven't seen its STOL capability.
When I was flying Nomads CP was ex MIL and was never shy about demonstrating the "STOL" performance.
You can certainly arrive in a clatter and a cloud of dust if required but an ungainly approach required
The same results could probably be achieved if the thing had some bloody BRAKES!
My 2 bob.
(2500 hours N22/24)
STOL is what Porters do
(approx 500 hours Porter PNG)
Moderator
CP was ex MIL and was never shy about demonstrating
then my previous comment clearly doesn't apply to you .. but your CP was a tad silly .. hard to explain at the enquiry if it turns to custard ...
I can remember Stuart's technique quite well .. and the brakes worked just fine as the aircraft crashed to a halt in next to very little ground run .. I can't recall actual distances now but, having read and analysed numerous cinetheodolite traces .. the bird did just fine in stopping ..
Point about STOL is that real STOL involves speeds somewhat less than the normal civil design standards require .. the problem occurs when something goes awry and the (modest) margin you have under civil rules is both not there and well and truly gone in the blink of an eye... usually with predictable consequences .. acceptable in an operational military environment but hardly justifiable for routine civil operations.
Can't speak to the Porter as I've no background with them at all .. other than watching an example on parachute ops ... does come down at an impressive rate ...
then my previous comment clearly doesn't apply to you .. but your CP was a tad silly .. hard to explain at the enquiry if it turns to custard ...
I can remember Stuart's technique quite well .. and the brakes worked just fine as the aircraft crashed to a halt in next to very little ground run .. I can't recall actual distances now but, having read and analysed numerous cinetheodolite traces .. the bird did just fine in stopping ..
Point about STOL is that real STOL involves speeds somewhat less than the normal civil design standards require .. the problem occurs when something goes awry and the (modest) margin you have under civil rules is both not there and well and truly gone in the blink of an eye... usually with predictable consequences .. acceptable in an operational military environment but hardly justifiable for routine civil operations.
Can't speak to the Porter as I've no background with them at all .. other than watching an example on parachute ops ... does come down at an impressive rate ...
the brakes worked just fine
the Chinese copy
Why did Brazil, Switzerland and USA not approach OZ to buy the rights
more percentage in offset production and technology transfer work which is the bulk of the local Industry in recent years
Good luck Gippsland
Silly Old Git
djpil
Point to any pictures?
Aaarse....so.. me finds it the HARBIN Y-11
Interesting crop sprayer
Note tail feathers
Dear Leader would know wot writ on the side
......which morphed into the YB-12
GAF should have a look at one of these
the Chinese copy
Got PT-6's eventually.
Got PT-6's eventually.
Aaarse....so.. me finds it the HARBIN Y-11
Interesting crop sprayer
Note tail feathers
Dear Leader would know wot writ on the side
......which morphed into the YB-12
GAF should have a look at one of these
Last edited by tinpis; 23rd Jun 2008 at 03:37.
Moderator
There was a note on some charts in the N24A FM
after my time first time around, Dave, ... my rides would have all been on N22 ... Stuart may have had his moments but he could make the bird do interesting things ...
after my time first time around, Dave, ... my rides would have all been on N22 ... Stuart may have had his moments but he could make the bird do interesting things ...
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aus, or USA, or UK or EU, or possibly somehwere in Asia.
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good read about Nomad development and service history here:
http://www.fourays.org/features_2005/nomad/nomad_1.htm
There are a few minor innaccuracies in the text but overall i think this is fairly much spot on. I'm glad to see all the armchair design experts have got their two cents in already (whack some PT6's on, 240 kts etc.) The perfect design remedies must be stunningly brilliant if you have no experience in that field and especially if you are completely ignorant of egineering and certification procedure.
Some one like djpil actually does understand these issues and makes sensible and informed comment, thankyou DP
Get real and try to stick to the truth if you can guys, the old gonad carries about the same as a caravan at about the same speed but uses less fuel. no doubt that the experienced nomad drivers know what they are talking about re stol etc but to compare the N24 to the PC12 is not apples with apples. From my experience I wouldn't exactly call the caravan a stol ship for that matter either, and you will definately rack up more M/E turbine time in a nomad on any given sector than you will in a PC12, 208 or a Beech 200, is that not what you want in the log book?
I am surprised that many commentators on this forum love to criticise the media with blazing indignation over almost any comment that they have any slight knowledge of, but quite happily sit back, quote emotive media articles and fuel the "Nomad Deathship" fire that the press and TV of the day built around what is basically a very sound and economical airframe.
and yes the engines would do much better if the much refined RR250 B17F2 replaced the older allison marks.
had my say now I can get back to the real world
HD
http://www.fourays.org/features_2005/nomad/nomad_1.htm
There are a few minor innaccuracies in the text but overall i think this is fairly much spot on. I'm glad to see all the armchair design experts have got their two cents in already (whack some PT6's on, 240 kts etc.) The perfect design remedies must be stunningly brilliant if you have no experience in that field and especially if you are completely ignorant of egineering and certification procedure.
Some one like djpil actually does understand these issues and makes sensible and informed comment, thankyou DP
Get real and try to stick to the truth if you can guys, the old gonad carries about the same as a caravan at about the same speed but uses less fuel. no doubt that the experienced nomad drivers know what they are talking about re stol etc but to compare the N24 to the PC12 is not apples with apples. From my experience I wouldn't exactly call the caravan a stol ship for that matter either, and you will definately rack up more M/E turbine time in a nomad on any given sector than you will in a PC12, 208 or a Beech 200, is that not what you want in the log book?
I am surprised that many commentators on this forum love to criticise the media with blazing indignation over almost any comment that they have any slight knowledge of, but quite happily sit back, quote emotive media articles and fuel the "Nomad Deathship" fire that the press and TV of the day built around what is basically a very sound and economical airframe.
and yes the engines would do much better if the much refined RR250 B17F2 replaced the older allison marks.
had my say now I can get back to the real world
HD
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why does everyone keep mentioning PT-6 as replacement engine and not a Garrett 331.
When you want a small strong cheap fuel efficient engine they're hard to beat.
Sure they make the little kids cry, but their ears recover in time.
When you want a small strong cheap fuel efficient engine they're hard to beat.
Sure they make the little kids cry, but their ears recover in time.
Youngwun - My experience is that Garrett's product support is the most atrocious in the entire solar system.....and that was a quote from a Boeing VP!
Nobody would deliberately bolt something Garrett to their aircraft if they had an alternative.
Mind you, I loooove Phoenix.
Nobody would deliberately bolt something Garrett to their aircraft if they had an alternative.
Mind you, I loooove Phoenix.
Common misconception that adding power increases your cruise speed, it becomes very inefficient very quickly. And if the engines are all that changed, Vne would still be the same. All it would mean is you could climb faster, and possibly carry more weight.
Other advantage of the C208, assuming same speed/load capacity - 2 engines. Not a huge deal for most pilots, but for those punters who reckon a baron must be safer than a PC12. Oh, and Capt Wally.
From what I know about gipps, they aren't exactly fools. They wouldn't even consider this if there wasn't a definite market out there for it, even if it's mostly export.
And to those who reckon Oz is too small to have someone building a twin turboprop, try telling Embraer not to build jets cause they mustn't have the infrastructure, or the market to sell them!
Other advantage of the C208, assuming same speed/load capacity - 2 engines. Not a huge deal for most pilots, but for those punters who reckon a baron must be safer than a PC12. Oh, and Capt Wally.
From what I know about gipps, they aren't exactly fools. They wouldn't even consider this if there wasn't a definite market out there for it, even if it's mostly export.
And to those who reckon Oz is too small to have someone building a twin turboprop, try telling Embraer not to build jets cause they mustn't have the infrastructure, or the market to sell them!
Moderator
There are a few minor innaccuracies in the text
That would be an understatement I suspect .. keep in mind that ARMY had an agenda of its own ..
Some one like djpil actually does understand these issues
Definitely a fair comment .. djpil has some passing knowledge of the Type and engineering matters generally .. but I'm sure that you knew that ... from your bio details, I am now wracking my tiny brain as to just who you might be ?
That would be an understatement I suspect .. keep in mind that ARMY had an agenda of its own ..
Some one like djpil actually does understand these issues
Definitely a fair comment .. djpil has some passing knowledge of the Type and engineering matters generally .. but I'm sure that you knew that ... from your bio details, I am now wracking my tiny brain as to just who you might be ?