Plane ditches off Brampton Island
Single Driver
The PA32 AFM states that the tip tanks should be filled first and used last therefore the mains should be next to empty on short runs like this.
Well done to the driver no mater what the circumstance. Anyone you can walk/swim away from is a good one.
The PA32 AFM states that the tip tanks should be filled first and used last therefore the mains should be next to empty on short runs like this.
Well done to the driver no mater what the circumstance. Anyone you can walk/swim away from is a good one.
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One should always be carefull about congratulating a pilot after a prang. Statistically it is more than likely the pilots fault.
Fuel starvation being the number one cause of engine failure, and first day on the job in an aircraft with 4 independant fuel tanks - well if I were that pilot, I would be very carefull how I spoke to anyone.
Fuel starvation being the number one cause of engine failure, and first day on the job in an aircraft with 4 independant fuel tanks - well if I were that pilot, I would be very carefull how I spoke to anyone.
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Again well done to the pilot.
But i must concur with Backdoorbandit on this one.
The list of items that will cause an O or OI 540 to stop making noise is quite short, combine that with first day on the job etc etc ( yes i have flown a Cherokee 6 ).
There is absolutely no shame in making a mistake ( not suggesting that is the case here ), we've all done it and no doubt will continue to do it.
But when Pilots cut through the BS and tell the "warts an all" version of any event/stuff up, others can learn without having the same experience.
But i must concur with Backdoorbandit on this one.
The list of items that will cause an O or OI 540 to stop making noise is quite short, combine that with first day on the job etc etc ( yes i have flown a Cherokee 6 ).
There is absolutely no shame in making a mistake ( not suggesting that is the case here ), we've all done it and no doubt will continue to do it.
But when Pilots cut through the BS and tell the "warts an all" version of any event/stuff up, others can learn without having the same experience.
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Several previous posters have jumped to judgement within hours of this incident and before the facts have even been collected, let alone made public or analysed. As someone who had a 4-cylinder Lycoming drop dead from crankshaft gear separation, I strongly suggest you all restrain your unprofessional inclinations and belt up. My observations over many years are that the very same people who speculate about incidents like this are often the first to complain about the ways others might be treating them professionally. Read the code of ethics of just about any other profession and see what it says about casting reflections about the performance of your colleagues.
After many years, I have reluctantly come to wonder whether the piloting "profession" is really that at all, or a bunch of largely uneducated prima-donnas and know-alls who can't resist the opportunity to damn their peers from their own "high" positions. At the end of the day, it's your choice.
What we do know is that an aeroplane with passengers aboard lost power unexpectedly and landed in the water and that everyone aboard has come away without loss of life or serious injury. For that, the pilot deserves our highest professional respect - at least for those that know what the term means...
Those of you with no aspirations to be professional can do as you please, which (of course, being always more knowledgeable than everyone else) you'll do anyway. The rest of us will await the facts.
OTD.
After many years, I have reluctantly come to wonder whether the piloting "profession" is really that at all, or a bunch of largely uneducated prima-donnas and know-alls who can't resist the opportunity to damn their peers from their own "high" positions. At the end of the day, it's your choice.
What we do know is that an aeroplane with passengers aboard lost power unexpectedly and landed in the water and that everyone aboard has come away without loss of life or serious injury. For that, the pilot deserves our highest professional respect - at least for those that know what the term means...
Those of you with no aspirations to be professional can do as you please, which (of course, being always more knowledgeable than everyone else) you'll do anyway. The rest of us will await the facts.
OTD.
a bunch of largely uneducated prima-donnas and know-alls who can't resist the opportunity to damn their peers from their own "high" positions.
What we do know is that an aeroplane with passengers aboard lost power unexpectedly and landed in the water and that everyone aboard has come away without loss of life or serious injury. For that, the pilot deserves our highest professional respect
Well done.
At the end of the day, she was faced with a situation, and she kept her composure and dealt with it appropriately
Has a lot to do with the persons' attitude, and the way they adapt to and accept their training environment.
By the look of those photos, the training probably still fresh in her mind!
(I would have no chance!)
OTD: Wonder no longer.
Although commercial pilots may consider themselves to be, and may indeed be, ‘professional’ (adjective), they are not members of a ‘profession’ (noun). Members of real professions are, as you suggest, subject to very strict rules about the very limited circumstances in which they may presume to criticise their colleagues, and breaches of those rules have very significant consequences.
Not so pilots: witness pprune.
Re the ditching: I am very relieved that all POB survived. Well done to the pilot, and if it turns out the pilot made a mistake, I hope she does not make it again!
Although commercial pilots may consider themselves to be, and may indeed be, ‘professional’ (adjective), they are not members of a ‘profession’ (noun). Members of real professions are, as you suggest, subject to very strict rules about the very limited circumstances in which they may presume to criticise their colleagues, and breaches of those rules have very significant consequences.
Not so pilots: witness pprune.
Re the ditching: I am very relieved that all POB survived. Well done to the pilot, and if it turns out the pilot made a mistake, I hope she does not make it again!
Just Binos
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After many years, I have reluctantly come to wonder whether the piloting "profession" is really that at all, or a bunch of largely uneducated prima-donnas and know-alls who can't resist the opportunity to damn their peers from their own "high" positions.
I'll only back up with others have said here - we are the first to criticise the media for saying that every accident is pilot error, yet without any solid facts we start to already say the pilot is at fault. Some wonder why pilots get screwed over by companies when it comes to wages, well no wonder when we screw each other even professionally and stick the knife in with no credible evidence.
Surely we should be supporting her actions, which from what we have as fact so far she has seemed to have done everything correct, let the facts speak for themselves, but surely she is entitled to the presumption of being innocent of any wrong doing until proven otherwise....even IF she did something wrong, everyone got out alive.
Surely we should be supporting her actions, which from what we have as fact so far she has seemed to have done everything correct, let the facts speak for themselves, but surely she is entitled to the presumption of being innocent of any wrong doing until proven otherwise....even IF she did something wrong, everyone got out alive.
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"Surely we should be supporting her actions, which from what we have as fact so far she has seemed to have done everything correct, let the facts speak for themselves"
Agreed, in my eyes i have no clue what the circumstances were but even if it was human error she still managed to take control of the situation, keep her head and because of that there are 4 ppl walking round on this earth breathing because of her. For that all i can do is applaud her...
Agreed, in my eyes i have no clue what the circumstances were but even if it was human error she still managed to take control of the situation, keep her head and because of that there are 4 ppl walking round on this earth breathing because of her. For that all i can do is applaud her...
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Binos and OTD
Think you guys need a Chill Pill, Binos, before your forst post #21 there was nobody claiming to know how she ended up in the drink, the closest anyone came was my bit of Banter at the FTDK, and if you read more objectively you will see that my posting was not pointing the finger directly at the pilot at all.
Then a few posts later it was the Backdoorbandit and LRT that started suggesting such thinks in a more direct sense, and to be fair they commented with a fair degree of compassion.
I know someone who recently made a mistake of a similar nature as suggested with fuel taps.......and lucky for them they found a paddock and flew out within 3 minutes! Its a fairly reasonable scenario.
Even if it has been a pilot stuff up, after some soul searching I think she should get support and promotion for handling an emergency so well. Could have easily gone very pear shaped in a flash!
J
Think you guys need a Chill Pill, Binos, before your forst post #21 there was nobody claiming to know how she ended up in the drink, the closest anyone came was my bit of Banter at the FTDK, and if you read more objectively you will see that my posting was not pointing the finger directly at the pilot at all.
Then a few posts later it was the Backdoorbandit and LRT that started suggesting such thinks in a more direct sense, and to be fair they commented with a fair degree of compassion.
I know someone who recently made a mistake of a similar nature as suggested with fuel taps.......and lucky for them they found a paddock and flew out within 3 minutes! Its a fairly reasonable scenario.
Even if it has been a pilot stuff up, after some soul searching I think she should get support and promotion for handling an emergency so well. Could have easily gone very pear shaped in a flash!
J
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After many years, I have reluctantly come to wonder whether the piloting "profession" is really that at all, or a bunch of largely uneducated prima-donnas and know-alls who can't resist the opportunity to damn their peers from their own "high" positions. At the end of the day, it's your choice.
Take note sky gods and EACs
Well done to the pilot glad everyone swam away...
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... there is no such thing as good luck in a ditching I think, only good management!
To the pilot - congratulations on your first water landing - you should log it in your log book! Landing on water is a skill, especially when it is forced, and especially in an aircraft that is not designed to.
All FIVE people reached land safely and in good spirits by the look of the photos.
And good work by the rescue chopper to be there so quick.
Warning - thread drift!
As a professional pilot I find the 'hero worship' of a pilot following a successful outcome following a gross error that they made to be a little distasteful (I am NOT implying that any error was factor in this accident). The saying 'a superior pilot is one who uses their superior judgment to avoid having to use their superior skills' summarizes it. As professional pilots we manage risks. A serious flight crew error that results in abnormal skills being required is a sign that we could have done a lot better.
Warning - adding to thread drift!
And for those that were asking about the fuel system on the PA-32 - it is a human factors nightmare. Whilst I am not suggesting it was a factor in this accident I could certainly understand it if was. From memory (it is many years since I flew a PA-32) there were a number of issues. Firstly there were four tanks, of which the mains hold about 90 minutes of fuel each and the auxiliary tip tanks hold about 60 minutes of fuel each. Secondly the fuel selectors are in a place where they are vulnerable to being kicked by passengers when embarking and disembarking. Thirdly if the fuel tank selector is not positively selected in the detent the fuel can be 'off' - if the selector is between tanks fuel won't get through. Fourthly I vaguely remember a ZFW / POH requirement for fuel to be used out of the main tanks first in cruise at higher weights (anyone out there remember?). Fifthly, take off and landing must be on the mains. The only good thing about the fuel system is that the return fuel from the engine returns to the selected tank. I think most of this was discussed by the ATSB in the Hamilton Island accident report. I am sure that it is fuel systems such as this that lead to the requirement for newly certified GA aircraft to have uninterpretable fuel systems.
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Although I can think of several old aircraft with fuel systems that are "uninterpretable", I think Werbil meant "uninterruptable"! (FAR 23.995 (g) (2) says that fuel valves must not be moved through the "OFF" position to change tanks).
Creampuff noted that the ethical codes for real professions prohibit commenting about, reflecting on, or criticizing of the work of colleagues in most situations, so that (among other things) the subject colleague has an opportunity to get a fair hearing. Rumour mongering can only open opportunities for the uninformed who will grasp at even a twig on which they can build a case for blame, responsibility and all that entails. Further, such behaviour encourages people outside the profession who lack proper education in its knowledge to jump to conclusions that someone properly instructed in the matter would recognise as incorrect or deficient in logic. Such behaviour is therefore neither in the interests of the public/community, nor in the interests of the profession. In real professions, the interests of self, both commercial and personal, come last. When the members of a profession have sufficient self- or imposed-discipline to hold their tongues about the work of their colleagues, the subject matter can be more effectively dealt with in an objective inquiry free of those constraints.
In my view, it doesn't matter if the comments are made directly or not.
There is an objective body charged with determining the facts of every air safety incident in Australia and ethical members of real professions would remain silent while that process was under way.
But apparently not so for pilots. Creampuff is right.
Someone said I need to take a chill pill and he's right too, because many have already decided what kind of a business flying is and will be. But having chosen not to be professional, and when something goes wrong in which you are involved, don't expect the media to go easy on you as they exploit similarly unprofessional comments from your colleagues, or when you find yourself unfairly prejudiced in explaining yourself to to a panel of well-meaning non-pilots, who may well be already convinced that what they read or heard earlier must be right - and quite possibly that you should pay.
OTD.
Creampuff noted that the ethical codes for real professions prohibit commenting about, reflecting on, or criticizing of the work of colleagues in most situations, so that (among other things) the subject colleague has an opportunity to get a fair hearing. Rumour mongering can only open opportunities for the uninformed who will grasp at even a twig on which they can build a case for blame, responsibility and all that entails. Further, such behaviour encourages people outside the profession who lack proper education in its knowledge to jump to conclusions that someone properly instructed in the matter would recognise as incorrect or deficient in logic. Such behaviour is therefore neither in the interests of the public/community, nor in the interests of the profession. In real professions, the interests of self, both commercial and personal, come last. When the members of a profession have sufficient self- or imposed-discipline to hold their tongues about the work of their colleagues, the subject matter can be more effectively dealt with in an objective inquiry free of those constraints.
In my view, it doesn't matter if the comments are made directly or not.
There is an objective body charged with determining the facts of every air safety incident in Australia and ethical members of real professions would remain silent while that process was under way.
But apparently not so for pilots. Creampuff is right.
Someone said I need to take a chill pill and he's right too, because many have already decided what kind of a business flying is and will be. But having chosen not to be professional, and when something goes wrong in which you are involved, don't expect the media to go easy on you as they exploit similarly unprofessional comments from your colleagues, or when you find yourself unfairly prejudiced in explaining yourself to to a panel of well-meaning non-pilots, who may well be already convinced that what they read or heard earlier must be right - and quite possibly that you should pay.
OTD.
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OTD,
In my opinion, what you've just wasted 30 minutes typing is complete twaddle.
You can not compare Aviation with other industrys, many of these "professional" industries you refer to are looking very closely at aviation for ways ahead ( fatigue management, SOPS, risk management, there are also many others ).
Aviation is an industry where Pilots learn from each others mistakes, i can not count the number of time that some Pilot has had an accident and all his/her mates jump on pprune and spruke on about what a great guys fred was/is, blah blah blah, completely pointless crap, i'm sure fred was/is a geat bloke.
At the end of the day, the ATSB publishes a report stating how fred muffed it or what the cause of the accidents was, but as BDB stated statistically it is more likely Pilot error and makes freds mate look quite stupid.
Very seldom do you find a Pilot with the stones to put their hand up and admit to their mistakes, now that is an area we could collectively learn to better ourselves in, open and frank no BS discussion.
As far as you suggesting some here are non professional, have you flown with me or any others here ?, what makes you all knowing ?.
Just because your ego is somehow damaged by the questions asked, too bad, this is an open and free discussion, and yes the facts of this accident will not take very long to surface, of which everyone here is interested in for their own education.
I personally do not know Kate, I wish her well and commend her for her dealing with the situation, but the question of why is one that an intelligent person should ask, and i personally do not care if that offends you.
In my opinion, what you've just wasted 30 minutes typing is complete twaddle.
You can not compare Aviation with other industrys, many of these "professional" industries you refer to are looking very closely at aviation for ways ahead ( fatigue management, SOPS, risk management, there are also many others ).
Aviation is an industry where Pilots learn from each others mistakes, i can not count the number of time that some Pilot has had an accident and all his/her mates jump on pprune and spruke on about what a great guys fred was/is, blah blah blah, completely pointless crap, i'm sure fred was/is a geat bloke.
At the end of the day, the ATSB publishes a report stating how fred muffed it or what the cause of the accidents was, but as BDB stated statistically it is more likely Pilot error and makes freds mate look quite stupid.
Very seldom do you find a Pilot with the stones to put their hand up and admit to their mistakes, now that is an area we could collectively learn to better ourselves in, open and frank no BS discussion.
As far as you suggesting some here are non professional, have you flown with me or any others here ?, what makes you all knowing ?.
Just because your ego is somehow damaged by the questions asked, too bad, this is an open and free discussion, and yes the facts of this accident will not take very long to surface, of which everyone here is interested in for their own education.
I personally do not know Kate, I wish her well and commend her for her dealing with the situation, but the question of why is one that an intelligent person should ask, and i personally do not care if that offends you.
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Imagine a forum based upon the driving skills & types of working the transportation of goods/people at ground level, there would be gidlock as to the amount of blame, speculation & sentence posed. Fortunetly the aviation has very few incidents/accidents compared to the ground transport industry but we still love to milk it for it's worth.
'OTD' like everyone else in here is entitled to an opinion.
At the end of the day who was in control of the ill fated plane? a HUMAN BEING, no one any different than, YOU.
We`learn, & that's about all we can do here.
CW
'OTD' like everyone else in here is entitled to an opinion.
At the end of the day who was in control of the ill fated plane? a HUMAN BEING, no one any different than, YOU.
We`learn, & that's about all we can do here.
CW
Grandpa Aerotart
When the members of a profession have sufficient self- or imposed-discipline to hold their tongues about the work of their colleagues, the subject matter can be more effectively dealt with in an objective inquiry free of those constraints.
Or the Law 'profession'?
What a load of rubbish otd...name one 'profession' that works as you suggest.