Running Expenses for c210
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Running Expenses for c210
I have done a search and can't find a thread for this.
Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to have a C210- not turbo or anything out there- on line.
I need to establish the estimated running costs for things such as -
100 hrly's
Insurance
Registration
General Maintenance Schedule
Etc
Plus whatever else may be relevant.
Anyhelp would be great.
Cheers
Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to have a C210- not turbo or anything out there- on line.
I need to establish the estimated running costs for things such as -
100 hrly's
Insurance
Registration
General Maintenance Schedule
Etc
Plus whatever else may be relevant.
Anyhelp would be great.
Cheers
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It all rather depends..
on how hard they thrash it, how often they thrash it, what they are supposed to be doing when they thrash it - and of course being a 210, and especially if private hired they'll probably crash it.
Basically you could probably reckon on (say) $4000 for a 100hrly, with the occasional one at $10k +- might be less in private use.
Insurance would be higher for training and charter but depending on the value, the amount of public liability, whether you need passenger liabilty insurance for Charter or not - say $6000 upwards, maybe $12K or more for a really nice late model.
Engine is 1700 hrs(?) life or 12 years in Charter and about $50-60K to overhaul, prop about $16K to renew or 4K to overhaul -either 1500 or 2000 or 2400 hrs or 72 months in Charter.
Hangarage at a place like BK - probably $400/ month, then about $15? per movement (keeping an aircraft on line will give you a few of them!)
Fuel? 50-60 litres per hours again depending on what they do with it - maybe hire it dry to them ?
Don't forget you ASA Charges - about $18 a time at (say) BK
You should also add something for wear and tear - a paint and interior job can easily be $25K and with some operators, you will need one about every 5 years or so.
Work that lot out and you'd be nuts to put it on line for less than $300 per hour - many desperate owners who put nice aircraft on line are of course! for sure if it gets the big hours you need to offset the fixed costs, it will be a wreck quite soon - one way or another. The truth is when you work out what your real costs are and try to equate to what they are paying, it wont work.
on how hard they thrash it, how often they thrash it, what they are supposed to be doing when they thrash it - and of course being a 210, and especially if private hired they'll probably crash it.
Basically you could probably reckon on (say) $4000 for a 100hrly, with the occasional one at $10k +- might be less in private use.
Insurance would be higher for training and charter but depending on the value, the amount of public liability, whether you need passenger liabilty insurance for Charter or not - say $6000 upwards, maybe $12K or more for a really nice late model.
Engine is 1700 hrs(?) life or 12 years in Charter and about $50-60K to overhaul, prop about $16K to renew or 4K to overhaul -either 1500 or 2000 or 2400 hrs or 72 months in Charter.
Hangarage at a place like BK - probably $400/ month, then about $15? per movement (keeping an aircraft on line will give you a few of them!)
Fuel? 50-60 litres per hours again depending on what they do with it - maybe hire it dry to them ?
Don't forget you ASA Charges - about $18 a time at (say) BK
You should also add something for wear and tear - a paint and interior job can easily be $25K and with some operators, you will need one about every 5 years or so.
Work that lot out and you'd be nuts to put it on line for less than $300 per hour - many desperate owners who put nice aircraft on line are of course! for sure if it gets the big hours you need to offset the fixed costs, it will be a wreck quite soon - one way or another. The truth is when you work out what your real costs are and try to equate to what they are paying, it wont work.
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"Plus whatever else may be relevant"
Just normal Cessna 100 hourly stuff like trying to get all the cessna gauges and avionics to work, especially the f*** altimatic autopilot.
Then the other small incidentals... like drooping gear doors/hydraulic leaks/gear hydraulic motor leaks and failures/busted plastics/seat rails/water leaks/reribbing the tail and then laugh at the extensive vocabulary of expletives from the engineer as he tries to recowl the thing!
The old 210 does it's job pretty well though, even though I don't particularly look foward to flying them.
Just normal Cessna 100 hourly stuff like trying to get all the cessna gauges and avionics to work, especially the f*** altimatic autopilot.
Then the other small incidentals... like drooping gear doors/hydraulic leaks/gear hydraulic motor leaks and failures/busted plastics/seat rails/water leaks/reribbing the tail and then laugh at the extensive vocabulary of expletives from the engineer as he tries to recowl the thing!
The old 210 does it's job pretty well though, even though I don't particularly look foward to flying them.
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C210 expenses
Airsic, the C210 demands a fairly high level of respect, which unfortunately a lot of pilots don't have, especially low hour ones. The rate at which it is hired out depends on how many hours/year it does. If it does approximately 200hours/year, a break even rate will be somewhere around the $300 mark. It will be significantly less if you are prepared to work with your LAME's and get your hands dirty as a lot of the costs can involve diagnosing the hydraulic landing gear. A good reference on running costs can be found by buying the Cessna Pilots Association Cessna 210 Buyers Guide by John Frank. It has a whole lot of information on all C210 models and is a must have before buying any 210.
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You often see syndicates who operate this genre of aircraft (IO520 retract/CSU) charging themselves around $120/hr dry.
So that's not a bad starting figure, and as pointed out by others, usage, looking after it, and helping with maintenance will make a difference.
Putting it on line adds a dimensional twist in the wrong direction, but if managed closely and you are very knowledgeable on the 210 then some of the down side can be mitigated.
A hell of a lot hangs on what condition it is in when you buy in, eng. prop, brakes, tyres, corrosion, paint, mags, alternator, starter, avionics, previous maintenance quaility.
That's why they say if it floats, fly's or ...ah...cooks, rent it.
M
So that's not a bad starting figure, and as pointed out by others, usage, looking after it, and helping with maintenance will make a difference.
Putting it on line adds a dimensional twist in the wrong direction, but if managed closely and you are very knowledgeable on the 210 then some of the down side can be mitigated.
A hell of a lot hangs on what condition it is in when you buy in, eng. prop, brakes, tyres, corrosion, paint, mags, alternator, starter, avionics, previous maintenance quaility.
That's why they say if it floats, fly's or ...ah...cooks, rent it.
M
Think of a number and double it!
Hi Airsic,
$300 per hour sounds a little lite. I can throughly recommend the CPA 210 guide, and joining the Cessna Pilots Assn, I save more than the price of admission every year with the advise and the magazine.
I have had aeroplanes' (C172's and C180) on line at Flying Schools and also with two different Charter Operators in NZ. I can recommend that if you want to use it for yourself it is way cheaper to just keep it for your use and Never Never lend it to anyone. Sold the 172's and just keep the 180 for personal use now and save heaps.
Hire rule one. The hirer will always damage the aircraft.
C172 aircraft are going for $240 to $280 per hour here on training and as a rough rule of thumb you double the 172 hire rate, less the fuel costs, less ten percent profit for the school/charterer and that is about the costs for a C206. A 210 could be somewhat higher.
The numbers used for syndicates are false as they have fixed costs included as annual or monthly fees
If you PM me I could send you a calculator excel sheet to play with some figures.
Cheers
$300 per hour sounds a little lite. I can throughly recommend the CPA 210 guide, and joining the Cessna Pilots Assn, I save more than the price of admission every year with the advise and the magazine.
I have had aeroplanes' (C172's and C180) on line at Flying Schools and also with two different Charter Operators in NZ. I can recommend that if you want to use it for yourself it is way cheaper to just keep it for your use and Never Never lend it to anyone. Sold the 172's and just keep the 180 for personal use now and save heaps.
Hire rule one. The hirer will always damage the aircraft.C172 aircraft are going for $240 to $280 per hour here on training and as a rough rule of thumb you double the 172 hire rate, less the fuel costs, less ten percent profit for the school/charterer and that is about the costs for a C206. A 210 could be somewhat higher.
The numbers used for syndicates are false as they have fixed costs included as annual or monthly fees
If you PM me I could send you a calculator excel sheet to play with some figures.
Cheers
Many years ago you could do the rounds of various flying schools at YMMB and hire B36, C182RG, C206, C210 and PA32's, but a spate of incidents and accidents soon put an end to that.
I have access to a C210M, the owner has always been very careful who he lets fly and where it goes, and he gives you a checkout in it and will go and do some circuits with you if you haven't flown it for a while. Over the years he has knocked back or refused to give people a check flight in it, which doesn't always fit well with some peoples ego.
Over the twenty years of flying C210's, I seen people do untold damage through poor engine handling, prop strikes, damage gear doors by putting the gear out too fast, some very poor landing techniques in normal and crosswind landings due to flying the approach too fast and not flaring correctly etc.
In any of the Cessna 182/206/207/210 there is a lot of weight on that nosewheel and in turn easy to buckle a firewall and or a prop strike.
I saw a brand new C210 turn very tightly on a congested apron and the pilot managed to get a propstrike, lots of dollars and much swearing and cursing about his new C210 Centurion!!!
I bet in the near future there will be some very expensive AD's come out for C210, after all they have been out of production for 24 years now.
A lot of the C210's in Australia are fairly high time especially those that have been operated in the NT by Tillair, Airnorth, Skyport etc.
I have access to a C210M, the owner has always been very careful who he lets fly and where it goes, and he gives you a checkout in it and will go and do some circuits with you if you haven't flown it for a while. Over the years he has knocked back or refused to give people a check flight in it, which doesn't always fit well with some peoples ego.
Over the twenty years of flying C210's, I seen people do untold damage through poor engine handling, prop strikes, damage gear doors by putting the gear out too fast, some very poor landing techniques in normal and crosswind landings due to flying the approach too fast and not flaring correctly etc.
In any of the Cessna 182/206/207/210 there is a lot of weight on that nosewheel and in turn easy to buckle a firewall and or a prop strike.
I saw a brand new C210 turn very tightly on a congested apron and the pilot managed to get a propstrike, lots of dollars and much swearing and cursing about his new C210 Centurion!!!
I bet in the near future there will be some very expensive AD's come out for C210, after all they have been out of production for 24 years now.
A lot of the C210's in Australia are fairly high time especially those that have been operated in the NT by Tillair, Airnorth, Skyport etc.
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SIDS for Cessna 200 series
BEWARE BEWARE
CASA will be soon implementing a SIDS program for the 200 series Cessnas. Was told this last year when hunting for a 210 for private use.
Also beware of (AD210/61 amdt 2). It is not well written, but the gist is that the wings have to be removed to comply fully.... to when AD first introduced. If a/c is factory corrosion proofed then every 12 years thereafter.... otherwise 6 years. BIG EXPENSE, but then again better than falling like a stone.
Many ADCR (Airworthiness Directive Compliance Record) have been signed off without removal of wings....... look at airframe maintenance closely for confirmation.
Cheers.... AM
PM me if you want more info
CASA will be soon implementing a SIDS program for the 200 series Cessnas. Was told this last year when hunting for a 210 for private use.
Also beware of (AD210/61 amdt 2). It is not well written, but the gist is that the wings have to be removed to comply fully.... to when AD first introduced. If a/c is factory corrosion proofed then every 12 years thereafter.... otherwise 6 years. BIG EXPENSE, but then again better than falling like a stone.
Many ADCR (Airworthiness Directive Compliance Record) have been signed off without removal of wings....... look at airframe maintenance closely for confirmation.
Cheers.... AM
PM me if you want more info
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Hasn't our wonderful regulator now dropped SIDS on 3/400 series? So why would they bother puttiing them on 210's?
Completely silly risk management yet again? - as if the wings falling off 210's or 3-400 series for that matter, is anything like a major cause of coming to grief with the types!
Completely silly risk management yet again? - as if the wings falling off 210's or 3-400 series for that matter, is anything like a major cause of coming to grief with the types!
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Not a single word of encouragement there about having a C210 online (or any plane for that matter!). Why you might ask? Simple really it will cost you more to have/own it for hire than what you could possibly make on it, money & mental health wise!. I used to hire one & many other types many years ago (C210 $100 & C182 $60 P/H ) like a lot of us did in here but to own one you would have to be either very rich & or just plain dumb !In those days it was someone elses problem if we returned with a busted plane.
I wouldn't own a plane if you gave me one. I know that's a contridiction in terms with ref to this thread) Best to hire it, pay the cost at the end of trip 'cause it's a known quantity & there aren't any surprises & then after thr fun sleep like a log at night. Because doing it the other way round you better have a good comfy pillow !
You simply pay for someone else to have all the fun, is this what you want AS?
F
I wouldn't own a plane if you gave me one. I know that's a contridiction in terms with ref to this thread) Best to hire it, pay the cost at the end of trip 'cause it's a known quantity & there aren't any surprises & then after thr fun sleep like a log at night. Because doing it the other way round you better have a good comfy pillow !
You simply pay for someone else to have all the fun, is this what you want AS?
F
it will cost you more to have/own it for hire than what you could possibly make on it.
I used to hire one & many other types many years ago (C210 $100 & C182 $60 P/H ) like a lot of us did in here but to own one you would have to be either very rich & or just plain dumb ! Best to hire it, pay the cost at the end of trip 'cause it's a known quantity & there aren't any surprises & then after thr fun sleep like a log at night. Because doing it the other way round you better have a good comfy pillow!
For the first 25 years of my flying career I had access to a variety of good aircraft (many near new) at competitive rates. I looked at owning my own on a number of occassions but could not really justify it when I had other aircraft readily available.
For the last 10 years things have been quite different - at least in my part of the world. Access to good aircraft for private hire has been almost non-existant, and I have had some potentially "sticky" situations with poorly maintained aircraft.
You don't need to be "either very rich & or just plain dumb" to own an aircraft today, however if don't have a high disposable income, you do need a tax deductible reason for doing a reasonable amount of flying (200 hrs per year?).
I would never put an aircraft that I owned on a line for private hire. The risk of someone costing you a large amount of money is just too great. I would however allow a very few people to use the aircraft - those who I knew could be trusted to operate the aircraft as if it was their own and would operate it the way I want it operated.
Private aircraft ownership seems to be undergoing something of a resurgence at the moment. My LAME is very busy processing aircraft being imported from the US - most of which I get to test fly. They are being brought in by individuals who have a genuine business reason to fly.
I cannot see how anyone can put a C210/Bonanza on a line for less than $300 wet. At that you wouldn't make much if anything at all.
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 5th Mar 2008 at 14:01.
Grandpa Aerotart
What FTDK said
Especially this bit.
When mine comes out of the hangar with new paint/interior/etc that is exactly what will be happening.
Especially this bit.
I would never put an aircraft that I owned on a line for private hire. The risk of someone costing you a large amount of money is just too great. I would however allow a very few people to use the aircraft - those who I knew could be trusted to operate the aircraft as if it was their own and would operate it the way I want it operated.
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In any of the Cessna 182/206/207/210 there is a lot of weight on that nosewheel and in turn easy to buckle a firewall and or a prop strike.
Yet pilots still persist in taxiing with the control column fully forward on high wing Cessnas. They drive the nose into the apron in a turn.
There was a time when you would never see this. I see pilots on the take off roll with the control column firewalled.
This is in nil wind cond's.
Sign of the times.
Yet pilots still persist in taxiing with the control column fully forward on high wing Cessnas. They drive the nose into the apron in a turn.
There was a time when you would never see this. I see pilots on the take off roll with the control column firewalled.
This is in nil wind cond's.
Sign of the times.
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Called airmanship.
Many drivers about today will not understand the full extend of the term.
Column firewalled on taxi.......210 with door swinging in the breeze unattended or attended and no care.
Mixture usage either too rich or too lean.
The amount of things one sees that are just not good for the a/c or hip pocket are too numerous to mention.
Many drivers about today will not understand the full extend of the term.
Column firewalled on taxi.......210 with door swinging in the breeze unattended or attended and no care.
Mixture usage either too rich or too lean.
The amount of things one sees that are just not good for the a/c or hip pocket are too numerous to mention.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Hasn't our wonderful regulator now dropped SIDS on 3/400 series? So why would they bother puttiing them on 210's?
Expect a program of this type to eventually be in place for ALL GA type aircraft in Australia.
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'No, they have not. in fact they have added some stuff to the original SID.
Expect a program of this type to eventually be in place for ALL GA type aircraft in Australia.'
What even Pipers? SIDs is just a Cessna word - an arse covering risk managment exercise from Cessna - Yep, it probably will come for all but there is not much justification for mandating it when most GA aircraft are already maintained to something less than the manufacturer's schedule anyway.
Expect a program of this type to eventually be in place for ALL GA type aircraft in Australia.
'What even Pipers? SIDs is just a Cessna word - an arse covering risk managment exercise from Cessna - Yep, it probably will come for all but there is not much justification for mandating it when most GA aircraft are already maintained to something less than the manufacturer's schedule anyway.
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Airsic
This may not be the direction you wish to go, however worth a thought.
A mate has had a RAAus registered Sportstar online for 2 years and is very happy with how it is being looked after and is making a measurable financial return on it.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the days of high performance GA types is near over particularly with on line hire.
However there is a growing market of pilots in the RAAus category and a healthy demand for types to fly.
Some of the advantages are:
1. Cheaper buy in cost.
2. Much much cheaper maintenance and repair costs.
3. Much simpler operating skills required, eg. no mixture no CSU, no retract.
4. A pool of pilots who appear to have a better skill base often with more knowledge due to a greater passion for there hobby.
5. More likely to be hangared and in a smaller (cheaper) hangar.
6. The online operators are often a friendlier bunch of people who are less financially cut throat.
Down side is you probably won't own a 160 kt machine, but you could, they are out there.
M
This may not be the direction you wish to go, however worth a thought.
A mate has had a RAAus registered Sportstar online for 2 years and is very happy with how it is being looked after and is making a measurable financial return on it.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the days of high performance GA types is near over particularly with on line hire.
However there is a growing market of pilots in the RAAus category and a healthy demand for types to fly.
Some of the advantages are:
1. Cheaper buy in cost.
2. Much much cheaper maintenance and repair costs.
3. Much simpler operating skills required, eg. no mixture no CSU, no retract.
4. A pool of pilots who appear to have a better skill base often with more knowledge due to a greater passion for there hobby.
5. More likely to be hangared and in a smaller (cheaper) hangar.
6. The online operators are often a friendlier bunch of people who are less financially cut throat.
Down side is you probably won't own a 160 kt machine, but you could, they are out there.
M
RAA = A pool of pilots who appear to have a better skill base often with more knowledge due to a greater passion for there hobby.
Dr
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I'll kick it off........
There is a very good base of experinced folk from GA to ATPL and some serious careful and sensible RAA only.
But there are a hell of a lot of the others.....the ones the Doc is thinking of.
I am often amazed.....and I am not a Sky God by any stretch.
J
There is a very good base of experinced folk from GA to ATPL and some serious careful and sensible RAA only.
But there are a hell of a lot of the others.....the ones the Doc is thinking of.
I am often amazed.....and I am not a Sky God by any stretch.
J