Logging Hrs - Dual but not under instruction
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Logging Hrs - Dual but not under instruction
Quickie Q I can't seem to answer clearly: How would I log hours flown with another pilot - i.e. 2 PPL's sharing a trip.
By my reading it's not 'dual' as that seems to be defined as dual UNDER INSTRUCTION.
I believe we can each log the part of the time we are flying (sorry, SOLE manipulator of the controls) as 'command'.
It probably doesn't count towards the 'total aeronautical experience', but nonetheless, it would seem appropriate to record it in my logbook.
Comments? Sure this isn't a new question!
By my reading it's not 'dual' as that seems to be defined as dual UNDER INSTRUCTION.
I believe we can each log the part of the time we are flying (sorry, SOLE manipulator of the controls) as 'command'.
It probably doesn't count towards the 'total aeronautical experience', but nonetheless, it would seem appropriate to record it in my logbook.
Comments? Sure this isn't a new question!
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I dont believe you can. You can only log command whilst you are in command. While your sitting in the right seat you cant log anything. Unless your flying an aircraft that requires two pilots, which I dont imagine you are, then you have other considerations.
FN
FN
Mark1234
Friction Nut is correct. Unless the “Flight Manual” for the aircraft stipulates a requirement for 2 pilots, only 1 can log the hours, i.e. the pilot flying. The only exception to this is instructional flights and flight tests conducted by an ATO or an approved check pilot.
Friction Nut is correct. Unless the “Flight Manual” for the aircraft stipulates a requirement for 2 pilots, only 1 can log the hours, i.e. the pilot flying. The only exception to this is instructional flights and flight tests conducted by an ATO or an approved check pilot.
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And thirded! (If thats a word! ) Also if you are not Right hand seat endorsed you cant log it. Basically test flights and Instructional flights only! If you want to share the hours then just at each stop swap seats and do a sector from the left seat then you can each log as Command each sector you flew!
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Hangonaminute.... this may be somewhat tangential, but where does it say you have to sit in the left seat to be in command? The flight manual for at least one of the aircraft I fly says it can be flown from *either* seat (which I read to mean I'm perfectly legal, if obtuse to fly it solo, sitting in the right, rather than the left seat).. and I've never heard of a right hand seat endorsement?
To clarify, I understand that 2 people can not log the same hours. Would however seem worthwhile recording the flight, even whilst not counting the hours towards totals - just nice to look back over the trips I've taken and places I've been.
Possibly not worth the agro judging by....
To clarify, I understand that 2 people can not log the same hours. Would however seem worthwhile recording the flight, even whilst not counting the hours towards totals - just nice to look back over the trips I've taken and places I've been.
Possibly not worth the agro judging by....
Last edited by Mark1234; 26th Feb 2008 at 07:41. Reason: spelling and grammar
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Mark1234, yes, true, you can log command from the right hand seat but if your a PPL flying yourself around, would you??? I'd say not. All the dials are on the left....
So if you have another person with you, them being a pilot, or not, the person flying is still going to be sitting in the left hand seat, yeh???
Now I'm not too sure whether its a CAO requirment, or perhaps a company requirment, but a lot of 2 pilot operations require pilots, such as training captains to be right hand seat endorsed in order to do such things as training first officers to be captains,etc....
Sounds like your probably going to be flying a single engine machine on your trip, which is a single pilot airplane. If your flying sector for sector, then that should be an adequate personal record of the trip. If you want more, take your digital camera, take heaps of photo's, put them together in a slide show with some music and you will have something better than a few lines in your log book. Whatever you do though, dont both log the same hours. It would be deemed as falsifying (spell check u/s) ones log book, and if CASA saw it you'd be up the mighty proverbial creek. But just flying around on a PPL, the odds are low. But then again, dont rule out the possibility of being ramp checked on the trip.
Hope that helps.
FN
So if you have another person with you, them being a pilot, or not, the person flying is still going to be sitting in the left hand seat, yeh???
Now I'm not too sure whether its a CAO requirment, or perhaps a company requirment, but a lot of 2 pilot operations require pilots, such as training captains to be right hand seat endorsed in order to do such things as training first officers to be captains,etc....
Sounds like your probably going to be flying a single engine machine on your trip, which is a single pilot airplane. If your flying sector for sector, then that should be an adequate personal record of the trip. If you want more, take your digital camera, take heaps of photo's, put them together in a slide show with some music and you will have something better than a few lines in your log book. Whatever you do though, dont both log the same hours. It would be deemed as falsifying (spell check u/s) ones log book, and if CASA saw it you'd be up the mighty proverbial creek. But just flying around on a PPL, the odds are low. But then again, dont rule out the possibility of being ramp checked on the trip.
Hope that helps.
FN
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hmmmm.... not seeing any aggro in any of the previous posts Mark1234. I too agree with previous posters; the hours can only be logged by one of the PPL's on-board, usually the licensed pilot occupying the left-hand or command seat. The scenario you portray meets the definition of neither Dual nor Instruction.
With regard the right-hand seat endorsement... I've never heard of that one either, although I think you may find the regulator would prefer the aircraft be flown from the seat with the most flight instruments in front of it, if for no other reason than to preclude the possibility of error caused by parallax when viewed from the more distant seat -something instructors and others trained to fly from the right-hand seat without a full suite of flight instruments before them are specifically trained to compensate for, let alone the differences of actually flying from the right, particularly in the landing phase.
Recording the hours is quite OK -in the NZ logbooks there is a column at the extreme right of the page for analysis or recording of flight times that do not count towards any logbook totals at all. I imagine there would be similar in Australian logbooks also.
With regard the right-hand seat endorsement... I've never heard of that one either, although I think you may find the regulator would prefer the aircraft be flown from the seat with the most flight instruments in front of it, if for no other reason than to preclude the possibility of error caused by parallax when viewed from the more distant seat -something instructors and others trained to fly from the right-hand seat without a full suite of flight instruments before them are specifically trained to compensate for, let alone the differences of actually flying from the right, particularly in the landing phase.
Recording the hours is quite OK -in the NZ logbooks there is a column at the extreme right of the page for analysis or recording of flight times that do not count towards any logbook totals at all. I imagine there would be similar in Australian logbooks also.
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When I flew as a flight instructor there was no such thing as a 'right seat endorsement'. Rather, an instructor will initially receive dual instruction when doing their rating so that can learn how to fly accurately from the right seat.
As others have mentioned, you can fly from either seat unless the POH states the PIC must sit in a particular seat (only tandem seat aircraft such as the Decathlon come to mind). Whether this is wise is up to you to decide i.e. can you reach the fuel selector from the right seat?
Again as others mentioned, only the PIC logs the time during private operations. Don't be like a pilot I came across who logged any time they flew in a right seat as 'co-pilot'. They had hours ranging from ultralights to twins but didn't even have a PPL.
As others have mentioned, you can fly from either seat unless the POH states the PIC must sit in a particular seat (only tandem seat aircraft such as the Decathlon come to mind). Whether this is wise is up to you to decide i.e. can you reach the fuel selector from the right seat?
Again as others mentioned, only the PIC logs the time during private operations. Don't be like a pilot I came across who logged any time they flew in a right seat as 'co-pilot'. They had hours ranging from ultralights to twins but didn't even have a PPL.
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References are CAR 226 and CAO 40.1.0
No mention of a "Right hand seat endorsement" there.
Unless stated in the POH, it is probably a requirement by the owner or operator to have a check ride if planning flying from a different seat to usual, which is sensible, but not an endorsement.
No mention of a "Right hand seat endorsement" there.
Unless stated in the POH, it is probably a requirement by the owner or operator to have a check ride if planning flying from a different seat to usual, which is sensible, but not an endorsement.
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@RadioSaigon: You misunderstand.. no agro in the posts, all helpful. I mean not worth the agro of trying to record in my logbook.
@everyone: I agree, it would me making life unnecessarily difficult (obtuse was the word I chose) to fly it from the right seat.. though that's more to do with instrument reading and operation than anything. Just don't believe that theres anything magic about the seat you sit in, just your role in the flight.
No extra column in my logbook, but not to worry, I think the question is adequately answered - Thanks
@everyone: I agree, it would me making life unnecessarily difficult (obtuse was the word I chose) to fly it from the right seat.. though that's more to do with instrument reading and operation than anything. Just don't believe that theres anything magic about the seat you sit in, just your role in the flight.
No extra column in my logbook, but not to worry, I think the question is adequately answered - Thanks
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Not commenting on you in particular but have had occasion to "talk" to a pilot who thought he would fly from the RHS. It was not pretty or safe. There are a few traps for the unwary or inexperienceed. Though most pilots can adapt pretty quickly following a few pointers.
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Max182,
In NZ, if you require instrument hours towards the issue of a PPL/CPL/IR and don't want to do it with an instructor dual, then you can carry a safety pilot who is licensed, type rated and has access to dual controls then you may log PIC and IF time (for the proportion of flight under the hood, you don't know how many I've flown with who think that because it was an IF flight that all of it would go in to the actual or sim column).
As an example, a student pilot without a license can't carry passengers, so the only way to log IF is dual with an instructor. A PPL holder building IF time for the issue of CPL or Instrument rating, can have a PPL/CPL/ATPL buddy sit beside them and act as safety pilot as long as they are type rated and have access to a second set of controls. THE SAFETY PILOT CANNOT LOG ANY TIME if you log PIC/IF.
The only occassion 2 people can log flight and IF time together is in a dual instruction environment, and the instructor can use X amount of that time towards their IFR currency requirements if they require it.
That's my understanding of the sit in NZ, may have changed since I was full time in GA
S2K
Postnote: I've got a nagging feeling that a type rating may not be essential, but definitely must hold a license
What if a private flight includes some flying under the hood with a
safety pilot in the right seat? Any ideas how to log this situation?
safety pilot in the right seat? Any ideas how to log this situation?
As an example, a student pilot without a license can't carry passengers, so the only way to log IF is dual with an instructor. A PPL holder building IF time for the issue of CPL or Instrument rating, can have a PPL/CPL/ATPL buddy sit beside them and act as safety pilot as long as they are type rated and have access to a second set of controls. THE SAFETY PILOT CANNOT LOG ANY TIME if you log PIC/IF.
The only occassion 2 people can log flight and IF time together is in a dual instruction environment, and the instructor can use X amount of that time towards their IFR currency requirements if they require it.
That's my understanding of the sit in NZ, may have changed since I was full time in GA
S2K
Postnote: I've got a nagging feeling that a type rating may not be essential, but definitely must hold a license
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Mark1234,
There is no right hand seat endorsement. There is a right hand seat approval, but even this is only an in-house thing ie not a CASA approval.
As previously stated by a few, unless the AOM/AFM states otherwise, you can sit either side you want (but unless intructed in the right hand seat I would not recomment it).
It is your log book and you can fill it out anyway you wish. If you only intend to remain a PPL and you have one of those ATC logbooks, you may wish to use the Specialist/Instructor column to record your trips away. Provided you put the times in those coluns only, you could add them up and it wont mean jack to anyone else but you. After all it wont be added to your total aeronautical experience. You could even have a differant logbook dedicated to the flights you refer to only. Just as you rightfully stated there is nothing mythical about the RHS, so it is the same with your logbook. It is a book with a log of your travels. Just dont fudge or incorrectly log your time.
As for manipulating the controls from the right hand seat with a PPL buddy sitting next to you is something maybe CFI can ellaborate on. My understanding is that a PIC is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the flight. He doesn't have to fly the aircraft at all, and provided that only one person is logging time for the time that they are flying, you could go hour for hour or 10 mins for 10 mins or whatever you wish from whatever seat you wish.
There is no right hand seat endorsement. There is a right hand seat approval, but even this is only an in-house thing ie not a CASA approval.
As previously stated by a few, unless the AOM/AFM states otherwise, you can sit either side you want (but unless intructed in the right hand seat I would not recomment it).
It is your log book and you can fill it out anyway you wish. If you only intend to remain a PPL and you have one of those ATC logbooks, you may wish to use the Specialist/Instructor column to record your trips away. Provided you put the times in those coluns only, you could add them up and it wont mean jack to anyone else but you. After all it wont be added to your total aeronautical experience. You could even have a differant logbook dedicated to the flights you refer to only. Just as you rightfully stated there is nothing mythical about the RHS, so it is the same with your logbook. It is a book with a log of your travels. Just dont fudge or incorrectly log your time.
As for manipulating the controls from the right hand seat with a PPL buddy sitting next to you is something maybe CFI can ellaborate on. My understanding is that a PIC is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the flight. He doesn't have to fly the aircraft at all, and provided that only one person is logging time for the time that they are flying, you could go hour for hour or 10 mins for 10 mins or whatever you wish from whatever seat you wish.
I seem to remeber a thread on here a year or so ago asking a similar question. From memory, the flight manual will dedicate a command seat or whether either/both (separately of course) can be used.
Are you hiring the aircraft? If you are, check the hire agreement as they will often state somewhere in there, who is PIC (usually the hirer). If not the CFI/CP will be able to shed some light on it.
Are you hiring the aircraft? If you are, check the hire agreement as they will often state somewhere in there, who is PIC (usually the hirer). If not the CFI/CP will be able to shed some light on it.
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I don't see any mention of the PIC being able to be changed during flight
My point about CAR 224 is in relation to the original post where the suggestion is made for two different people to log command on the same flight.
There doesn't seem to be any problem in having two people share flying duties provided both are qualified to do so. Refer CAR 228 and possibly 226. But you can't put hours in the command column unless you are PIC, and you can't change that during flight.
There doesn't seem to be any problem in having two people share flying duties provided both are qualified to do so. Refer CAR 228 and possibly 226. But you can't put hours in the command column unless you are PIC, and you can't change that during flight.
Change command in flight
you can't put hours in the command column unless you are PIC, and you can't change that during flight.
