Questions?
Thread Starter
Questions?
Being a simple low time PPL, I am continuously discovering how little I know about aviation, just trying to keep one lesson ahead of disaster.
Latest venture is going to be a trip up Porpunkah and Mt Beauty way to see how practical it might be to buy some property up that way and then flying to and from Melbourne as required.
Four immediate issues raise their heads that I hope some Ppruners may be able to settle for me.
1. The weather up those valleys? Is the Wangarratta TAF useful? From my experience around Mansfield, how often do you get valley fog?
2. Hangliders? Are they an issue?
3. Valley flying? Given the height of some of the surrounding terrain, I get the impression that unless it is CAVOK, one would need to approach VFR up one of the valleys, not exactly scud running, but in a valley with the possibility of a "lid" on it. That to me implies an "escape route" as well as alternates of Benalla, Wang and Albury. Is this realistic?
4. Looking at the ERC, I'm buggered if I can work out how some of the Lsalts are calculated, one or two of them are 9000+ ft, can someone enlighten me?
Handing over.
Latest venture is going to be a trip up Porpunkah and Mt Beauty way to see how practical it might be to buy some property up that way and then flying to and from Melbourne as required.
Four immediate issues raise their heads that I hope some Ppruners may be able to settle for me.
1. The weather up those valleys? Is the Wangarratta TAF useful? From my experience around Mansfield, how often do you get valley fog?
2. Hangliders? Are they an issue?
3. Valley flying? Given the height of some of the surrounding terrain, I get the impression that unless it is CAVOK, one would need to approach VFR up one of the valleys, not exactly scud running, but in a valley with the possibility of a "lid" on it. That to me implies an "escape route" as well as alternates of Benalla, Wang and Albury. Is this realistic?
4. Looking at the ERC, I'm buggered if I can work out how some of the Lsalts are calculated, one or two of them are 9000+ ft, can someone enlighten me?
Handing over.
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I'm not to sure about the answers to some of your questions, but I can have a go at a couple:
1. A TAF is pretty much only accurate to the airfield boundary. A nearby TAF would give you some idea about what's happening locally, but I wouldn't take it as gospel. Have a good look at the area forecast as this will tell you about cloud, wind and vis.
3. Ah, valleys. I'm no expert, but some "gotchas" to look out for.
i) Never go into a valley unless you have an "out". Your escape can either be via a turn, a climb or by going up another valley, but don't ever go in one that you are unsure about how you will get out of it.
ii) Think wind! Valleys are places where downdrafts and rotors like to live. If there's turb around or if the area forecast says that winds are strong (above, say, 20kt) then it's a good idea to put your valley flying on hold. Aiming off from a ridgeline by 45 degrees helps give you an idea of wind before you commit.
iii) Vis. When there was low cloud around we always used to check we could see two ridgelines before committing. That is, if we were crossing rows of features at 90 degrees, we'd make sure we could see the one we were about to cross and the one beyond that.
It's been a few years since I've done valley flying. Some old PNG hands should be able to help you out with more detailed info.
1. A TAF is pretty much only accurate to the airfield boundary. A nearby TAF would give you some idea about what's happening locally, but I wouldn't take it as gospel. Have a good look at the area forecast as this will tell you about cloud, wind and vis.
3. Ah, valleys. I'm no expert, but some "gotchas" to look out for.
i) Never go into a valley unless you have an "out". Your escape can either be via a turn, a climb or by going up another valley, but don't ever go in one that you are unsure about how you will get out of it.
ii) Think wind! Valleys are places where downdrafts and rotors like to live. If there's turb around or if the area forecast says that winds are strong (above, say, 20kt) then it's a good idea to put your valley flying on hold. Aiming off from a ridgeline by 45 degrees helps give you an idea of wind before you commit.
iii) Vis. When there was low cloud around we always used to check we could see two ridgelines before committing. That is, if we were crossing rows of features at 90 degrees, we'd make sure we could see the one we were about to cross and the one beyond that.
It's been a few years since I've done valley flying. Some old PNG hands should be able to help you out with more detailed info.
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G,day Sunfish..
The YWGT TAF is only valid for conditions within a 5 mile radius of the centre aerodrome runway complex. I would use YWGT and YMAY TAF etc for alternate info and the ARFOR for Mt Beauty.
I've flown direct from YMEN-YMBT many times and certainly picked my days. Although not the most direct, following the Hume Hwy to YWGT then direct to Bright keeps you away from high terrain.
There is also a webcam at the Bogong Moth Hotel that you can google, it points at the Mt Beauty Airport and can give you a look at conditions.
Use all information available, don't take any risks, be safe.
Enjoy the scenic approach.
The YWGT TAF is only valid for conditions within a 5 mile radius of the centre aerodrome runway complex. I would use YWGT and YMAY TAF etc for alternate info and the ARFOR for Mt Beauty.
I've flown direct from YMEN-YMBT many times and certainly picked my days. Although not the most direct, following the Hume Hwy to YWGT then direct to Bright keeps you away from high terrain.
There is also a webcam at the Bogong Moth Hotel that you can google, it points at the Mt Beauty Airport and can give you a look at conditions.
Use all information available, don't take any risks, be safe.
Enjoy the scenic approach.
Sunfish, have a good read up on the joys of flying in severe mechanical turbulence, mountain waves, valley flying and will your light aircraft really be able to handle those conditions. A Cessna C172 or a PA-28 with a couple of blokes on board at 5000' has stuff all performance combine that with severe downdraughts with give your undies a good workout.
Plenty of good articles in the old DCA crash comic and various flying magazines but more importantly talk to an experienced pilot that operates in the area.
Don't get your ambitions mixed up with your capabilities when it comes to flying in mountainous and rugged terrain.
Plenty of good articles in the old DCA crash comic and various flying magazines but more importantly talk to an experienced pilot that operates in the area.
Don't get your ambitions mixed up with your capabilities when it comes to flying in mountainous and rugged terrain.
Grandpa Aerotart
Mountain weather will more usually be very different to that around a low laying airfield, even one close by. Treat weather as 'what you see is what you get' in mountainous areas.
One aspect of valley flying in Australia that was never a consideration in PNG is power lines...particularly the high tension variety that cross valleys from one large tower, that may be obscured in cloud, to another on the opposite side that may well be similarly obscured.
There was one set in PNG that crossed the Markam River just inland from Lae...that I didn't find out about until I landed in Lae in VERY crap weather and a Talair pilot (I was not in Talair yet at the time) said "How did you get in?" "Down the river at 30' and then a rate one turn from the river mouth until I saw the threshold" "What about the power lines?"
"Power lines?"
They were in cloud above me...the towers were on the cloud shrouded river banks either side of me
BTW did you know cloud tends to dome up over rivers?
Valley/mountain flying (in other than calm clear weather) requires extreme levels of local knowledge to be consistently 'safe' ish. I would suggest having very high personal minimas until you REALLY get to know 'your' local valley systems...down to individual tree/rock outcrop/funny bend in river/creek level...and I mean that literally.
The VERY first landmark I ever learned in PNG was an individual tree on a ridge line near my home base in the Central Highlands - Chimbu Province. That tree and I developed a very special relationship in bad weather and good (but mostly bad
) over many years....probably 10 years after first having it pointed out to me on my first ever training flight ex Kundiawa, and having used it in anger 100s of times, and just smiled at it in passing 1000s of times, I flew past in a DHC7 to see that the locals had cut it down...I was near incandescent with anger
Wind is, like water, a fluid and behaves around mountains EXACTLY the way water flows around rocks and over waterfalls in a fast flowing river. Visualising what a wind is doing as it blows through/across mountains is a skill you'll need to develop to an instinctive level.
Crossing ridge lines/gaps/saddles at an angle is important if you're low and/or the weather is marginal...it allows you to assess conditions and reject crossing the ridge line with only a gentle turn away through a small angle as opposed to a 180 turn. With a 180 turn too terrain that may not have been in your focus can suddenly jump out and grab you...much less likely to happen crossing at a relatively shallow angle...30-40 degrees.
What you are looking for as you approach a ridge line is seeing more and more of what is beyond the ridge line. That means you're above it...less and less obviously means you're below it and roughly the same means you're at the same elevation as the terrain.
The other thing you will notice when down in valley systems is you're 'inside the map' effectively making them marginally useful...your visual horizon also goes as the terrain is all above you and attitude control becomes difficult until you get used to visualising where the actual horizon would be if a mountain wasn't in the way...it is almost instrument flying.
Above all it is GREAT, if somewhat SERIOUS, FUN.
S8 makes a good point re performance...a C182/180-185/206 etc is really the minimum aircraft for regular/serious mountain flying...serious meaning anything beyond low elevation rolling hills.
One aspect of valley flying in Australia that was never a consideration in PNG is power lines...particularly the high tension variety that cross valleys from one large tower, that may be obscured in cloud, to another on the opposite side that may well be similarly obscured.
There was one set in PNG that crossed the Markam River just inland from Lae...that I didn't find out about until I landed in Lae in VERY crap weather and a Talair pilot (I was not in Talair yet at the time) said "How did you get in?" "Down the river at 30' and then a rate one turn from the river mouth until I saw the threshold" "What about the power lines?"
"Power lines?"
They were in cloud above me...the towers were on the cloud shrouded river banks either side of me
BTW did you know cloud tends to dome up over rivers?
Valley/mountain flying (in other than calm clear weather) requires extreme levels of local knowledge to be consistently 'safe' ish. I would suggest having very high personal minimas until you REALLY get to know 'your' local valley systems...down to individual tree/rock outcrop/funny bend in river/creek level...and I mean that literally.
The VERY first landmark I ever learned in PNG was an individual tree on a ridge line near my home base in the Central Highlands - Chimbu Province. That tree and I developed a very special relationship in bad weather and good (but mostly bad
) over many years....probably 10 years after first having it pointed out to me on my first ever training flight ex Kundiawa, and having used it in anger 100s of times, and just smiled at it in passing 1000s of times, I flew past in a DHC7 to see that the locals had cut it down...I was near incandescent with angerWind is, like water, a fluid and behaves around mountains EXACTLY the way water flows around rocks and over waterfalls in a fast flowing river. Visualising what a wind is doing as it blows through/across mountains is a skill you'll need to develop to an instinctive level.
Crossing ridge lines/gaps/saddles at an angle is important if you're low and/or the weather is marginal...it allows you to assess conditions and reject crossing the ridge line with only a gentle turn away through a small angle as opposed to a 180 turn. With a 180 turn too terrain that may not have been in your focus can suddenly jump out and grab you...much less likely to happen crossing at a relatively shallow angle...30-40 degrees.
What you are looking for as you approach a ridge line is seeing more and more of what is beyond the ridge line. That means you're above it...less and less obviously means you're below it and roughly the same means you're at the same elevation as the terrain.
The other thing you will notice when down in valley systems is you're 'inside the map' effectively making them marginally useful...your visual horizon also goes as the terrain is all above you and attitude control becomes difficult until you get used to visualising where the actual horizon would be if a mountain wasn't in the way...it is almost instrument flying.
Above all it is GREAT, if somewhat SERIOUS, FUN.
S8 makes a good point re performance...a C182/180-185/206 etc is really the minimum aircraft for regular/serious mountain flying...serious meaning anything beyond low elevation rolling hills.
As Chimbu Chuckles says the minimum aircraft is the Cessna C182/180/185/206 and if your airstrip is at a reasonable altitude a Turbo charged one will be even better.
Allow for the basics in flight considerations such as increased take-off, landing distance, decreased climb performance due to a higher density altitudes, reduced climb performance due to turbulence and mountain wave activity.
The wind on the ground might indicate a breeze of 10 kts, but what is that wind at 2000' or 5000'.
Keep in mind that when BoM produce an ARFOR the wind is averaged out over the whole area, so when the met man prepares the area 30 he will most likely use an average wind taken over most of Victoria, so the wind in actual fact maybe a lot stronger in the high country. Have a look at the BoM website and see if there are many AWS in the high country and ring the local met office and see if they will give you the actual winds at 2000, 5000, 7000 and 10000' when they do the balloon flights. Then compare that to overhead Melbourne?
Keep in mind that a mountain waves and severe turbulence were on the forecast when the AC500 was lost last year, do you want go up in the high country in your C172 or PA-28.
Allow for the basics in flight considerations such as increased take-off, landing distance, decreased climb performance due to a higher density altitudes, reduced climb performance due to turbulence and mountain wave activity.
The wind on the ground might indicate a breeze of 10 kts, but what is that wind at 2000' or 5000'.
Keep in mind that when BoM produce an ARFOR the wind is averaged out over the whole area, so when the met man prepares the area 30 he will most likely use an average wind taken over most of Victoria, so the wind in actual fact maybe a lot stronger in the high country. Have a look at the BoM website and see if there are many AWS in the high country and ring the local met office and see if they will give you the actual winds at 2000, 5000, 7000 and 10000' when they do the balloon flights. Then compare that to overhead Melbourne?
Keep in mind that a mountain waves and severe turbulence were on the forecast when the AC500 was lost last year, do you want go up in the high country in your C172 or PA-28.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Sunfish;Chuckles said it all, and in a far, far better way that I could ever hope to!!
After all, he has about eight times the PNG experience that I have!
After all, he has about eight times the PNG experience that I have!
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'Sunfish' there is some great advise here, some generic some to the point.
Remember also there's nothing like local knowledge when the wx is marginal. Go see the area's you want to but at first only under ideal conditions. Take notes, take photos & above all take heed of the escape routes that are available to you whilst yr in perfect VMC. Then when you find yourself in less than ideal wx conditions some time down the track you will be armed with some info that can't be gotten from here amongst these words.
I fly on a semi reg basis into YMBT & although we/I plan IFR proceedures it's not fun when it's marginal at best. We use YWGT & YMAY as backups. AY is yr best bet 'cause of the chance that there is a guy in the tower obviously able to assist where possible. The AY twr guys are great, never to afraid to dial up there freq (124.2) & ask away. They could give you an idea of the wx down the Kiewa valley,(can't recall it's correct spelling there) the one that runs all the way into YMBT from YMAY, done that a few times @ 1000 ft AGL.
If in doubt pull out, there's no prizes for hero's in this game !
CW
P.S. remember everybody in here was a low time pilot once, experience cannot be bought!
Remember also there's nothing like local knowledge when the wx is marginal. Go see the area's you want to but at first only under ideal conditions. Take notes, take photos & above all take heed of the escape routes that are available to you whilst yr in perfect VMC. Then when you find yourself in less than ideal wx conditions some time down the track you will be armed with some info that can't be gotten from here amongst these words.
I fly on a semi reg basis into YMBT & although we/I plan IFR proceedures it's not fun when it's marginal at best. We use YWGT & YMAY as backups. AY is yr best bet 'cause of the chance that there is a guy in the tower obviously able to assist where possible. The AY twr guys are great, never to afraid to dial up there freq (124.2) & ask away. They could give you an idea of the wx down the Kiewa valley,(can't recall it's correct spelling there) the one that runs all the way into YMBT from YMAY, done that a few times @ 1000 ft AGL.
If in doubt pull out, there's no prizes for hero's in this game !
CW
P.S. remember everybody in here was a low time pilot once, experience cannot be bought!
Sunfish, local knowledge is always the best so ring before you go
Porpunkah, I have driven past a number of occasions. It appears to slope down to the north. has trees lining both sides of the southern end. The access to the road cuts across the northern third of the runway so keep an eye on any car traffic approaching the runway. There appear to be a few trees in the neighbours property to the south that may impinge on the glidepath for the threshold so maybe displace a few metres north. The field appears to be about 900m and grassed all over. The hangers are on the western side of the field. If it was me I would approach the field from the north. The Ovens valley is fairly wide around Porpunkah township and where the Buckland comes into it. Lot of high ground to the south, east and west to keep you interested. High ground to the north is on the opposite side of the Ovens valley. Being a river valley you can expect fog to hang around if it is forcast.
I have a property not far from there and am thinking the same thing. I have access to a Jab that I wish to try into the field. There is a HawkXP that operates out of there and I have seen 182s on dirt dart ops.
Local traffic? During the summer months there are hang gliders that operate from the lip of the gorge off Mt buffalo, they tend to recover from the airfield. Parasails, powered chutes and trikes are pretty regular.....
wish it was me.
Mount Beauty is a one way strip, landing toward the township, slopes uphill and is pretty short, the authority used to operate a Beaver in to the strip when they were building the hydro. Haven't actually been close to the field so cannot help much there. A lot of high ground to the immeadiate south of the field. The valley is pretty wide leading up to the township. EDIT- just to add, the highest rock in Victoria is just to the east of the field.
Like everything, ring up the numbers in ERSA and ask the question
Porpunkah, I have driven past a number of occasions. It appears to slope down to the north. has trees lining both sides of the southern end. The access to the road cuts across the northern third of the runway so keep an eye on any car traffic approaching the runway. There appear to be a few trees in the neighbours property to the south that may impinge on the glidepath for the threshold so maybe displace a few metres north. The field appears to be about 900m and grassed all over. The hangers are on the western side of the field. If it was me I would approach the field from the north. The Ovens valley is fairly wide around Porpunkah township and where the Buckland comes into it. Lot of high ground to the south, east and west to keep you interested. High ground to the north is on the opposite side of the Ovens valley. Being a river valley you can expect fog to hang around if it is forcast.
I have a property not far from there and am thinking the same thing. I have access to a Jab that I wish to try into the field. There is a HawkXP that operates out of there and I have seen 182s on dirt dart ops.
Local traffic? During the summer months there are hang gliders that operate from the lip of the gorge off Mt buffalo, they tend to recover from the airfield. Parasails, powered chutes and trikes are pretty regular.....
wish it was me.Mount Beauty is a one way strip, landing toward the township, slopes uphill and is pretty short, the authority used to operate a Beaver in to the strip when they were building the hydro. Haven't actually been close to the field so cannot help much there. A lot of high ground to the immeadiate south of the field. The valley is pretty wide leading up to the township. EDIT- just to add, the highest rock in Victoria is just to the east of the field.
Like everything, ring up the numbers in ERSA and ask the question
Pilot Monitored
Pilot Monitored means that Airservices is not keeping an active eye on the particular beacon. If it dies, for whatever reason, the only way anyone else finds out about it is when a pilot tries to dial it up, and can't. They then should inform Centre, who will probably ask a few other aircraft in the vicinity, and if its dead to the world, then it gets NOTAMmed until someone can get out to it, fix it, and put it back online.
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Questions
Chimbu chuckles (Post No.5)
Did the paragraph about the individual tree near your base in the Highlands,have anything to do with the tree used with the "Chimbu ILS" procedure?
Regards
Tmb
Did the paragraph about the individual tree near your base in the Highlands,have anything to do with the tree used with the "Chimbu ILS" procedure?
Regards
Tmb
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Hi Sunfish et al,
I have less experience that you Sunfish, but I have flown in and out of Mt. Beauty a few times in gliders and a 185. The only thing I think I can add to this thread is that if you planned to live at Mt. Beauty and commute you may find things a little difficult.
Mt. Beauty is a one way strip and effected by wx a lot of the time. As others have said, the Wang and ABX TAF would be of little use to you. Hang gliders generally don't operate close to the airport or the approach, the gliding club shares the strip though and there may be 6 or 7 gliders up on certain days. Finally, yes, the valley can get a little foggy at times.
It is a beautiful part of the world and a very livable place, but could be a hassle if you need to get in and out reliably.
Good luck.
ABX
I have less experience that you Sunfish, but I have flown in and out of Mt. Beauty a few times in gliders and a 185. The only thing I think I can add to this thread is that if you planned to live at Mt. Beauty and commute you may find things a little difficult.
Mt. Beauty is a one way strip and effected by wx a lot of the time. As others have said, the Wang and ABX TAF would be of little use to you. Hang gliders generally don't operate close to the airport or the approach, the gliding club shares the strip though and there may be 6 or 7 gliders up on certain days. Finally, yes, the valley can get a little foggy at times.
It is a beautiful part of the world and a very livable place, but could be a hassle if you need to get in and out reliably.
Good luck.
ABX
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There is a live vid cam from the Bogong Moth Motel based in Mt Beauty. It's updated constantly. Good to have a peek as it shows Vic's highest mountain in full view, Mt Bogong whilst looking out over the town itself.
Also shows current temp, humidity, recent rain, pressure & wind direction/ strength.
Try Google search to find it as I am unable to add a link to it here.
F
Also shows current temp, humidity, recent rain, pressure & wind direction/ strength.
Try Google search to find it as I am unable to add a link to it here.
F
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"WAN" YMBT is well known as a ONE WAY STRIP. T/OFF to the NTH land to the STH. The ERSA doesn't say as much but does mention T/OFF from RWY 14 not permitted due steep terrain. That statement makes my first obvious! If the strip does have an unacceptable tailwind component then simply don't land there. You've got away with it so far, best leave it at that! Besides flying low over the town (any town for that matter) isn't good airmanship in the first place.
F
F
Chuckles
[ quote]
The VERY first landmark I ever learned in PNG was an individual tree on a ridge line near my home base in the Central Highlands - Chimbu Province. That tree and I developed a very special relationship in bad weather and good (but mostly bad ) over many years....probably 10 years after first having it pointed out to me on my first ever training flight ex Kundiawa, and having used it in anger 100s of times, and just smiled at it in passing 1000s of times, I flew past in a DHC7 to see that the locals had cut it down...I was near incandescent with anger
[/quote]
Did you advise the authorities of vandalism to a navaid?
The VERY first landmark I ever learned in PNG was an individual tree on a ridge line near my home base in the Central Highlands - Chimbu Province. That tree and I developed a very special relationship in bad weather and good (but mostly bad
) over many years....probably 10 years after first having it pointed out to me on my first ever training flight ex Kundiawa, and having used it in anger 100s of times, and just smiled at it in passing 1000s of times, I flew past in a DHC7 to see that the locals had cut it down...I was near incandescent with anger[/quote]
Did you advise the authorities of vandalism to a navaid?
Grandpa Aerotart
Tmbstory...nope..I don't remember ever hearing of the 'Chimbu ILS' but I can imagine where it would have been...on the little plateau across the river from the strip where you flew left base.
The tree I was referring to was near Omkalai. I have heard of and used the Tapini ILS but that was a walking track not a tree.
Peter Fanelli
I was actually very angry, I am serious, weird as it seems. I cannot explain it other than to say that the first few times you're wandering along, at about 6-7000', in an area where the MORA is 17000', with that empty feeling in the pit of your stomach (and bowel) in rain, with low cloud all around you...not really certain where you are... and you spot, through the gloom and rain streaming across the windscreen, that one landmark that removes that feeling instantly and restores your faith in yourself, it leaves a lasting impression.
if I was flying something armed I'd have rolled in on the village.
The tree I was referring to was near Omkalai. I have heard of and used the Tapini ILS but that was a walking track not a tree.
Peter Fanelli
I was actually very angry, I am serious, weird as it seems. I cannot explain it other than to say that the first few times you're wandering along, at about 6-7000', in an area where the MORA is 17000', with that empty feeling in the pit of your stomach (and bowel) in rain, with low cloud all around you...not really certain where you are... and you spot, through the gloom and rain streaming across the windscreen, that one landmark that removes that feeling instantly and restores your faith in yourself, it leaves a lasting impression.
if I was flying something armed I'd have rolled in on the village.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 23rd Feb 2008 at 13:26.
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Okay 'Wan' let me re phrase it then. To those in the know, now inc yourself it's known as a one way strip (probably more to users on a reg basis) even if it doesn't appear that way on paper. Yr comments ref to rwy 32 r/h cts is correct & does mean the obvious (ldg to the nth is allowable) but it all goes back to good airmanship & also that one single word, safety, just 'cause it says you can doesn't mean it's wise at all times. Look at the end of the day land there if you feel comfy enough with it but like any rwy that has a displaced threshold means less LDA, & anything less than more isn't a good thing !
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Chimbu ILS
Chimbu Chuckles,
Thanks for the information, it was probably as you say, the crew of the dash 7 pointed out that if the "one tree" was kept in the same position in the right hand side window when on base, then when abeam it turn left and you would be on final for the runway. The missed approach was a right hand turn!! to work your way up out of the valley.
A spectacular view.
Tmb
Thanks for the information, it was probably as you say, the crew of the dash 7 pointed out that if the "one tree" was kept in the same position in the right hand side window when on base, then when abeam it turn left and you would be on final for the runway. The missed approach was a right hand turn!! to work your way up out of the valley.
A spectacular view.
Tmb
