V Australia-Tell me it aint true! (Merged Thread)
Well why don't we start a thread on chocolate milkshakes, or cherry ripes, or whatever and see how long before someone draws parallels between that and the dispute of 89.
Get over it guys, this is the present.
No amount of howling at the moon will bring back what could have been.
Get over it guys, this is the present.
No amount of howling at the moon will bring back what could have been.
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Since we all received the VOz update request, I've conducted a little mini survey among friends here in the Sandpit, and if the replies I've received are anything to go by, I think VOz and Jet* are heading for a big disappointment if they think they're going to get too many starters from over this way at the current packages both airlines are offering.
Both airlines seem to be falling for the same trap EK management have fallen for in recent years, believing that every pilot who applies will actually take up an offer of employment.
Both airlines seem to be falling for the same trap EK management have fallen for in recent years, believing that every pilot who applies will actually take up an offer of employment.
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to all u guys who want to have some fun at the expense of v oz and others.
why not apply even if u have no intention of taking the position, you can tick the box NO re paying for the endorsement...it sends a message and paperwork at the same time
why not apply even if u have no intention of taking the position, you can tick the box NO re paying for the endorsement...it sends a message and paperwork at the same time
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Hey abc1, can't help feeling like I struck a raw nerve with you, concerning that other thread you so kindly reproduced my comments from.
For a long time I have been careful not to get caught up in arguments over T&C's/buying endorsements and the like, because like the year that cannot be mentioned, some people will just never get over it. However at the risk of making myself a target, what I will say is that my decision to accept a position with such T&C's (that are considered by some like yourself to be questionable), was based on how it will impact my family first - and my career second.
Wouldn't the world be just wonderful if we as pilot brethren all banded together, clasping hands, and sang songs of unity, love, support and all other manner of warm and fuzzy s**t. Oh, if wishing only made it so. In reality, there is no loyalty, and there is no brotherhood. I think it is a sad reflection on the state of affairs that, for every nice guy I've met in this industry over the years, there are ten more a***holes lined up in front of him. Whilst I myself am a pilot, at the same time it embarrasses me to admit to it - simply because of the way in which I too often see this industry turn grown, rational adults into 12-year-olds who can do little more than piss on each other and compare dick size. The only reason I've tolerated this industry for so long is because I still love flying for flying's sake.
Nevertheless, whilst my flying is a passion that I shall continue to indulge for as long as circumstance allows, it is not the be-all and end-all of my life, and I could just as easily walk away from it tomorrow, as I could continue for another twenty years - which is why I'm able to sleep at night knowing that I make decisions based on how it affects my loved ones - not some anonymous PPRuNer who gets on his/her soapbox because he didn't like it.
For a long time I have been careful not to get caught up in arguments over T&C's/buying endorsements and the like, because like the year that cannot be mentioned, some people will just never get over it. However at the risk of making myself a target, what I will say is that my decision to accept a position with such T&C's (that are considered by some like yourself to be questionable), was based on how it will impact my family first - and my career second.
Wouldn't the world be just wonderful if we as pilot brethren all banded together, clasping hands, and sang songs of unity, love, support and all other manner of warm and fuzzy s**t. Oh, if wishing only made it so. In reality, there is no loyalty, and there is no brotherhood. I think it is a sad reflection on the state of affairs that, for every nice guy I've met in this industry over the years, there are ten more a***holes lined up in front of him. Whilst I myself am a pilot, at the same time it embarrasses me to admit to it - simply because of the way in which I too often see this industry turn grown, rational adults into 12-year-olds who can do little more than piss on each other and compare dick size. The only reason I've tolerated this industry for so long is because I still love flying for flying's sake.
Nevertheless, whilst my flying is a passion that I shall continue to indulge for as long as circumstance allows, it is not the be-all and end-all of my life, and I could just as easily walk away from it tomorrow, as I could continue for another twenty years - which is why I'm able to sleep at night knowing that I make decisions based on how it affects my loved ones - not some anonymous PPRuNer who gets on his/her soapbox because he didn't like it.
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Some fair points rat. No worries. Lets not let this thread turn into another dead end debate though.
I'm still in GA. I would like to work for the Virgin Group. I'm not paying for an endorsement with the way the current industry is, although I could afford to if I wanted. I feel there is very little competition for me and other pilots to secure a jet job somewhere in the next 2-3 years, and I am happy to go overseas if required.
Some pilots will use the 'opportunity' to pay as an advantge to get in before me. Personally I think that's just silly. But everyone has their own reasons, morales and principles which they live their life by.
Tick the no box.
I'm still in GA. I would like to work for the Virgin Group. I'm not paying for an endorsement with the way the current industry is, although I could afford to if I wanted. I feel there is very little competition for me and other pilots to secure a jet job somewhere in the next 2-3 years, and I am happy to go overseas if required.
Some pilots will use the 'opportunity' to pay as an advantge to get in before me. Personally I think that's just silly. But everyone has their own reasons, morales and principles which they live their life by.
Tick the no box.
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Sent an email last week outlining my experience (3000 jet FO, 2500 of which B767), and politely requesting details of their T&C's. I figure no point in lodging an official application unless I know whether I'm prepared to move.
As yet no response.
As yet no response.
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Bunglerat I indeed hear your sentiment but I still think the majority of pilots that I have come across in Australia are reasonably united and great people. If everyone were as segregated as you say there would be no fun on the flight decks across OZ. There is indeed a brotherhood amongst us. Flying by day, getting the job done and having a laugh and then have a few frosties at the end of the day. Everyone is trying to enjoy their job and be paid fairly for it. Some companies in Oz are still a fair way off the mark but the view is improving. The unions are paid to take care of the industrial stuff. If your not getting what you want from your union vote them out and get a new lot that will get you what you want (JPC have a good look at yourselves).
Its a great day when you can sit there above the crappy weather and have a laugh with the pilot sitting next to you while you hear the poor old navajo that you used to fly 20000ft beneath you. If you can couple that with the right remuneration and conditions (which is the unions job to get for you), your work life is set.
I go to work to go flying and interact with good people and get paid properly. Thats what we all should be striving for.
the only good thing the South Africans did was beat England and I thank you for that......
Its a great day when you can sit there above the crappy weather and have a laugh with the pilot sitting next to you while you hear the poor old navajo that you used to fly 20000ft beneath you. If you can couple that with the right remuneration and conditions (which is the unions job to get for you), your work life is set.
I go to work to go flying and interact with good people and get paid properly. Thats what we all should be striving for.
the only good thing the South Africans did was beat England and I thank you for that......
Anyone? Bueller?
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Doors open for non nationals
Reading the Vaustrailia recruitment site, I am correct in saying that they are not insisting on local citizens only or those with a work permit. Are any other carriers doing the same know. Add Jetstars and QF expansions plans, is this a pernament sign of things to come?
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Hi Pin Head,
Let's hope all the perceived movement in Oz is a sure sign of things to come. Australia deserves a much-awaited pilot employment frenzy..followed by, of course, DECENT, FAIR and RESPECTABLE working conditions...
There's lots of us abroad, who'd love to come home one day..so fingers crossed for everyone... those presently in Oz, and those of us living overseas.
Let's hope all the perceived movement in Oz is a sure sign of things to come. Australia deserves a much-awaited pilot employment frenzy..followed by, of course, DECENT, FAIR and RESPECTABLE working conditions...
There's lots of us abroad, who'd love to come home one day..so fingers crossed for everyone... those presently in Oz, and those of us living overseas.
Last edited by Hottie; 20th Nov 2007 at 16:06.
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One would hope that we might hear something in the way of a press statement on this matter from ALL the (too?) many unions that represent pilots in Australia.
Unfortunately, as has been mentioned already in another thread, the precedent seems to have already been set - VOz would appear to have selected a non national, non-777 rated Chief Pilot (or was it Chief of Training?) over an Australian who is currrent on type and who also has significent check and training experience on type - like more than ten years' worth.
One can only assume that if non-nationals are willing to pay for their endorsements and work for a lesser wage than Australians are, in these current times of economic rationalism, they'll get the jobs over Australains who are not quite so willing.
Students of Australian history would be able to draw some disturbing parallels to events in the 1890s and the establishment of the now much derided White Australia Policy. What many of today's Politically Correct seem too ready to gloss over when they talk about the travesties of the W.A.P. is that it was as much about protecting wages for Australians as about race. It was just that back then, the people willing to come to Australia and work for lower wages were predomininatly Chinese, whereas today, that's not nesessarily the case.
Unfortunately, as has been mentioned already in another thread, the precedent seems to have already been set - VOz would appear to have selected a non national, non-777 rated Chief Pilot (or was it Chief of Training?) over an Australian who is currrent on type and who also has significent check and training experience on type - like more than ten years' worth.
One can only assume that if non-nationals are willing to pay for their endorsements and work for a lesser wage than Australians are, in these current times of economic rationalism, they'll get the jobs over Australains who are not quite so willing.
Students of Australian history would be able to draw some disturbing parallels to events in the 1890s and the establishment of the now much derided White Australia Policy. What many of today's Politically Correct seem too ready to gloss over when they talk about the travesties of the W.A.P. is that it was as much about protecting wages for Australians as about race. It was just that back then, the people willing to come to Australia and work for lower wages were predomininatly Chinese, whereas today, that's not nesessarily the case.
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I wouldn't compare the managerial jobs with the pilot jobs going at VAus.
The task of introducing a new type, long haul operation and all that goes with it, requires much more knowledge and experience than one individual with a mere type rating may have. I reckon they would have taken that into account when employing the most suitable person for the job- as this gentleman most definitely has the skills required.
The task of introducing a new type, long haul operation and all that goes with it, requires much more knowledge and experience than one individual with a mere type rating may have. I reckon they would have taken that into account when employing the most suitable person for the job- as this gentleman most definitely has the skills required.
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Tinpis
Don't knock the Ppoms!
There's many an Aussie pilot who got their long awaited break on a shinny jet in mother England & Scotland..lost their sun tan in the process and learnt to drink warm beer, a small price to pay
And didn't have to pay for the rating either, unlike the scam being perpetrated downunder, (Irish Low Cost carriers aside).
Blue foot
Don't knock the Ppoms!
There's many an Aussie pilot who got their long awaited break on a shinny jet in mother England & Scotland..lost their sun tan in the process and learnt to drink warm beer, a small price to pay
And didn't have to pay for the rating either, unlike the scam being perpetrated downunder, (Irish Low Cost carriers aside).
Blue foot
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One would hope that we might hear something in the way of a press statement on this matter from ALL the (too?) many unions that represent pilots in Australia.
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Read below: I've commented on this before and still believe PE will own DJ in the next 6 months. My bet is that Toll will be involved but VBA will not be a listed company next year. So, for those that think they want to apply to VA and then turn there noses up; go right ahead. Even better book your discounted fare OS now and apply somewhere else beacuse unless your gamefully employed here seats will be filled with or without you.
OOB
Gamefully & Happily employed in the best place in the world - OZ.
3:21 PM Nov 16, 2007
print article
Alan Kohler
OOB
Gamefully & Happily employed in the best place in the world - OZ.
3:21 PM Nov 16, 2007
print article
Alan Kohler
A nation of city-hoppers
A week before Tiger Airways’ first Australian flight takes off at Tullamarine the aviation industry is abuzz with talk that David Bonderman’s Texas Pacific Group (TPG) may be looking at taking a major stake in Virgin Blue.
TPG was one of the key players in the Airline Partners Australia bid for Qantas earlier this year and it is thought that having failed to buy Qantas, Bonderman is thinking about attacking it.
Whether or not Toll Holdings’ Paul Little decides to sell Toll’s 63 per cent or to raise new equity and dilute, the future of Virgin Blue is one of the many things in play in Australian aviation at the moment.
Tiger’s first flight next week – plus Qantas’s massive increase in capacity announced this week, aimed mainly at its discount subsidiary Jetstar – are pointers to the arrival in Australia of the low-cost revolution that has transformed air travel elsewhere in the world, especially in Europe.
And ironically the long-standing discount airline, Virgin Blue, has been chasing Qantas upmarket, just as the Singapore Airlines’ offshoot Tiger Airways prepares to put five planes into the air with maximum fares below $100 and some at $9.95.
Aviation industry sources now expect any recapitalisation of Virgin Blue, possibly involving David Bonderman and TPG, to fund a very serious attack by Virgin on Qantas’s business travel franchise, accompanied by the launch of a new low-cost carrier by the Toll subsidiary – emulating the Qantas/Jetstar business model.
The Australian tourism business is in a state of high excitement about arrival next week of Tiger.
In Europe the low-cost revolution led by Ryanair has produced 20 per cent per annum growth in air travel. People are heading from London to Paris for dinner and to Madrid for the weekend. The new habit is to look on the internet for the best air ticket deals and go wherever they take you. Zagreb? Sounds great – let's go.
As a result Ryanair is now ranked the number one international airline, carrying 40,532 passengers in 2006 according to IATA, with further growth this year having extended its lead.
If the experience of Europe and Asia is any guide, the amount of air travel in Australia is about to explode.
Tigers’ chief Tony Davis says he expects to lift its capacity quickly from five aircraft to 30. At the same time, Jetstar’s capacity is being increased dramatically as a result of this week’s announcement from Qantas, and Virgin Blue is almost certain to be recapitalised and linked with a major long-haul airline.
In addition AirAsia, the discount carrier operating out of Kuala Lumpur’s low cost carrier terminal is proposing to fly into Melbourne’s Avalon airport next year. It is currently flying into the Gold Coast three times a week.
AirAsia has said it expects to fly A320s between Avalon and KL for $350 one-way, or $700 return. With Jetstar and Tiger also offering cheap Asian tickets, the economics of flying to Asia are also about to be transformed.
A few challenges arise from this. Although a big increase in capital city tourism will be great for the shops and restaurants in those places, regional tourism is in trouble. If it costs as much to fly from Sydney to Melbourne as it does to drive to the NSW south coast or Byron Bay, then more people might do that instead.
And Australia’s airports will have to lift their game – fast. Tiger will be using Melbourne’s Terminal 3, which is a shed off to the side of Terminal 2, first used by Virgin Blue and Compass.
It will do for a while, but the future of air travel is low cost, so Melbourne Airport will need to deal properly with the low cost carriers and their growing legions of customers.
And as for Sydney – Tiger is flying to Newcastle, not Sydney, which is too expensive. It’s great for Newcastle and people living in the Hunter Valley and the NSW north coast – but really, it’s not good enough.
A week before Tiger Airways’ first Australian flight takes off at Tullamarine the aviation industry is abuzz with talk that David Bonderman’s Texas Pacific Group (TPG) may be looking at taking a major stake in Virgin Blue.
TPG was one of the key players in the Airline Partners Australia bid for Qantas earlier this year and it is thought that having failed to buy Qantas, Bonderman is thinking about attacking it.
Whether or not Toll Holdings’ Paul Little decides to sell Toll’s 63 per cent or to raise new equity and dilute, the future of Virgin Blue is one of the many things in play in Australian aviation at the moment.
Tiger’s first flight next week – plus Qantas’s massive increase in capacity announced this week, aimed mainly at its discount subsidiary Jetstar – are pointers to the arrival in Australia of the low-cost revolution that has transformed air travel elsewhere in the world, especially in Europe.
And ironically the long-standing discount airline, Virgin Blue, has been chasing Qantas upmarket, just as the Singapore Airlines’ offshoot Tiger Airways prepares to put five planes into the air with maximum fares below $100 and some at $9.95.
Aviation industry sources now expect any recapitalisation of Virgin Blue, possibly involving David Bonderman and TPG, to fund a very serious attack by Virgin on Qantas’s business travel franchise, accompanied by the launch of a new low-cost carrier by the Toll subsidiary – emulating the Qantas/Jetstar business model.
The Australian tourism business is in a state of high excitement about arrival next week of Tiger.
In Europe the low-cost revolution led by Ryanair has produced 20 per cent per annum growth in air travel. People are heading from London to Paris for dinner and to Madrid for the weekend. The new habit is to look on the internet for the best air ticket deals and go wherever they take you. Zagreb? Sounds great – let's go.
As a result Ryanair is now ranked the number one international airline, carrying 40,532 passengers in 2006 according to IATA, with further growth this year having extended its lead.
If the experience of Europe and Asia is any guide, the amount of air travel in Australia is about to explode.
Tigers’ chief Tony Davis says he expects to lift its capacity quickly from five aircraft to 30. At the same time, Jetstar’s capacity is being increased dramatically as a result of this week’s announcement from Qantas, and Virgin Blue is almost certain to be recapitalised and linked with a major long-haul airline.
In addition AirAsia, the discount carrier operating out of Kuala Lumpur’s low cost carrier terminal is proposing to fly into Melbourne’s Avalon airport next year. It is currently flying into the Gold Coast three times a week.
AirAsia has said it expects to fly A320s between Avalon and KL for $350 one-way, or $700 return. With Jetstar and Tiger also offering cheap Asian tickets, the economics of flying to Asia are also about to be transformed.
A few challenges arise from this. Although a big increase in capital city tourism will be great for the shops and restaurants in those places, regional tourism is in trouble. If it costs as much to fly from Sydney to Melbourne as it does to drive to the NSW south coast or Byron Bay, then more people might do that instead.
And Australia’s airports will have to lift their game – fast. Tiger will be using Melbourne’s Terminal 3, which is a shed off to the side of Terminal 2, first used by Virgin Blue and Compass.
It will do for a while, but the future of air travel is low cost, so Melbourne Airport will need to deal properly with the low cost carriers and their growing legions of customers.
And as for Sydney – Tiger is flying to Newcastle, not Sydney, which is too expensive. It’s great for Newcastle and people living in the Hunter Valley and the NSW north coast – but really, it’s not good enough.