V Australia-Tell me it aint true! (Merged Thread)
Join Date: Oct 2006
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The Shield
do a couple of years as a cruise FO before progressing to FO!
Optimistically it would take 5 years to FO and effectively you would still only have 1500 hours experience.
Get some real life experience before you chain yourself to a long haul career.
It's not like there are no other choices.
Good luck.
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..and the spiral continues.
$45-$60k a year is an insult to any pilot, not just on one of the world's biggest aircraft, but any aircraft in that remote category. Those of you willing to accept it must bear the brunt of your choice.
YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ANY RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT LOWERING STANDARDS IN THE INDUSTRY (meals, rest periods, accomodation, training....etc) WHEN YOU ARE PART OF THE EXACT PROBLEM CREATING IT.
Once again, me, me , me.... Pilot unity? HA! I wish but can never see it happening.
Too bad integrity isn't part of a Trevor Thom book.
YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ANY RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT LOWERING STANDARDS IN THE INDUSTRY (meals, rest periods, accomodation, training....etc) WHEN YOU ARE PART OF THE EXACT PROBLEM CREATING IT.
Once again, me, me , me.... Pilot unity? HA! I wish but can never see it happening.
Too bad integrity isn't part of a Trevor Thom book.
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It's obvious
Many of todays airline pilots contributed to the destruction of T&C's in GA. They are now doing it to the regionals, and the majors.
It will continue as long as people believe they can go from high school to that golden F/O skygod job in a year or two.
It's a long hard slog, whichever way you go.
It will continue as long as people believe they can go from high school to that golden F/O skygod job in a year or two.
It's a long hard slog, whichever way you go.
Last edited by bushy; 1st Mar 2008 at 06:17.
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I am earning $80k doing useful, varied work flying a C206. Why would I bother?
They are obviously aiming for the Rex & Eastern FO's for whom $55-60 is only a sideways step.
Good luck to 'em
They are obviously aiming for the Rex & Eastern FO's for whom $55-60 is only a sideways step.
Good luck to 'em
Peoples, I suspect “The Shield” is probably “V Aus” management trying to sell the job. First ever post but registered two years ago. I mean just read that post again. It’s clear it is a sell job and a blatantly very bad sell job at that.
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"the shield" pathetic attempt at a wind up......."
and to "bendo" i have 1000hrs on a c206, please tell me how i can earn $80K flying a 206!!!!!......currently 45K as a B1900 FO!!!! (thought that was a step forward!!!)
and to "bendo" i have 1000hrs on a c206, please tell me how i can earn $80K flying a 206!!!!!......currently 45K as a B1900 FO!!!! (thought that was a step forward!!!)
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For those thinking of considering the cruise f/o jobs be very careful. Your eventual competition for a slot up front may end up being all of the virgin f/o s who are more senior. Also, if the airline stays fairly small it will be a long time before you get the chance to move to the real f/o position. You will basically have to wait for people to die or retire. If your training has been minimal during this time you may now struggle to even checkout as an f/o and may get stuck as a cruise f/o or even sacked! In the mean time your flight hours and experience will not count for much and you will not be able to move on to another airline when you eventually get sick of it. You will be a slave to the airline with no way out and they know it. Can you afford to take up a job earning 45,000 for the next ten years or more and then what ever they offer you to become an f/o for another ten years? All in the hope of one day becoming a mighty aviation God (Captain) on a 777 earning a salary that is grossly beneath industry standards until you retire which will now be very soon!
Being a second officer or cruise f/o is a real job and valuable to the overall operation. You can have a great time doing it and gain experience, but it is simply not recognized as real flight hours by most airlines and will not help you get another job. Thats why you will be stuck there and at the companies mercy. Australian aviation history proves that airlines can not always be trusted to look after your career. It is your responsibility.
There are so many opportunities in Australia for inexperienced pilots at the moment that it makes much better sense to go get some real flight experience. Then you can pack your bags anytime you need to and move on to better prospects. Have some faith in yourself and remove as much reliance on you employer as you can.
Being a second officer or cruise f/o is a real job and valuable to the overall operation. You can have a great time doing it and gain experience, but it is simply not recognized as real flight hours by most airlines and will not help you get another job. Thats why you will be stuck there and at the companies mercy. Australian aviation history proves that airlines can not always be trusted to look after your career. It is your responsibility.
There are so many opportunities in Australia for inexperienced pilots at the moment that it makes much better sense to go get some real flight experience. Then you can pack your bags anytime you need to and move on to better prospects. Have some faith in yourself and remove as much reliance on you employer as you can.
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Shockwave is so right; anyone considering a Cruise F/O position is doing his career a disservice. Aside from your log book stopping in its tracks for too many years (barring you from applying for other RHS positions when you finally realise it was a bad gamble) think very hard about the job satisfaction aspects - which in truth is why pilots fly - ie passion rather than money. You may find dest wxs / NOTAMS are barely handed to you at report, you'll not be consulted regarding fuel load, you'll get the walkarounds in the rain, inadvertantly you'll be asked to clear food trays out the F/D - and the bottom line you won't get to handle the damn thing - EVER. (and don't touch that switch sonny while I'm away)
Seriously - think very hard fellas, do the fun hard / yards on 2 crew twins / Metros / B737 etc and you'll be a better / happier pilot for it. There's still plenty of time for B777s - albeit Voz whoever. Don't end up despising your career before its even started.
Seriously - think very hard fellas, do the fun hard / yards on 2 crew twins / Metros / B737 etc and you'll be a better / happier pilot for it. There's still plenty of time for B777s - albeit Voz whoever. Don't end up despising your career before its even started.
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10yrs from S/O to F/O, what a load of crap. There are big advantages in joining a new aviation company @ start up. Look @ VB, back in 2000 when they started there was guys getting jobs with the biggest thing flown previous to date being a Chieftain! 6-10mths later they were in the left seat! This worked for a while until CASA raised an eye brow and slowed it down to about 18 months. Jetstar, same scenario, quick commands @ start-up! I keep reinforcing start-up because that’s when it will work! V-Aust wont be any different, I can’t imagine any new 777 driver (s/o) with, or with out 777 time having to wait more then 18 months or a f/o slot. Now for the $$$ that’s a different issue, 45k is crap. I can’t believe they would offer something so outrageous! I would have thought it would have made much more sense to offer a little more, get the guys overseas back (who have the experience, time on type and aptitude) which will set the foundation for long term success within the company. Think about this, getting new s/o’s from within Australia with 4000hrs TT. Never flown a jet, why is this? Does this mean that they could not get jet job any where else? A s/o is a future captain right? Hmm.. pay peanuts get monkeys! And the silly think is it would not take to much more money to get the “right” guys!
Just my 2 random cents worth!
Just my 2 random cents worth!
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629bus
Initially read your post and was ready to have a go - but you're pretty spot on, albeit with some reservations.
They are taking the LCC approach - the bottom feeders of the crew (ie anyone less than the designated PIC/Captain) will be paid what they can get away with; the dollars will be saved for the guys who will go to gaol if anything screws up (the designated PIC/Captain, strangely enough probably no one from C&T or management!)
The level of training (or lack therof) will be of little, or no, consequence in a court of law; the PIC/Captain will be the fall guy.
The postings so far have very little mention of PIC/Captain positions - there's a reason for that!
One point - the situation in Oz over the last 5-10 years has changed hugely, whether any individual perceives it as right or wrong it is now a totally free market where paying for endorsemants/moving ahead with unprecedented speed is the go.
Times change (also standards
)
Don't knock the kids - if they perceive there's a benefit they will live or die (or go somewhere fast or not at all) in their decisions.
Somethings, gladly, do NOT change!
Initially read your post and was ready to have a go - but you're pretty spot on, albeit with some reservations.
They are taking the LCC approach - the bottom feeders of the crew (ie anyone less than the designated PIC/Captain) will be paid what they can get away with; the dollars will be saved for the guys who will go to gaol if anything screws up (the designated PIC/Captain, strangely enough probably no one from C&T or management!)
The level of training (or lack therof) will be of little, or no, consequence in a court of law; the PIC/Captain will be the fall guy.
The postings so far have very little mention of PIC/Captain positions - there's a reason for that!
One point - the situation in Oz over the last 5-10 years has changed hugely, whether any individual perceives it as right or wrong it is now a totally free market where paying for endorsemants/moving ahead with unprecedented speed is the go.
Times change (also standards
)Don't knock the kids - if they perceive there's a benefit they will live or die (or go somewhere fast or not at all) in their decisions.
Somethings, gladly, do NOT change!
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"bendo" i have 1000hrs on a c206, please tell me how i can earn $80K flying a 206!!!!!......
Neither he nor his clients would expect a professional with our level of training and industry experience to earn half to 30% of what a coal miner earns.
...and he didn't read the award before he offered me the contract
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Shame on any PROFESSIONAL PILOT even turning up for the interview.... $45,000 is just out right insulting, how can someone spend a fortune to learn this game and then get shafted by any and every airline out there.
Please anyone considering going for this interview you may want to seriously look at other options. This means a very bleak outlook in the Australian job scene. At the end of the day money talks and bullS*** walks. I thought we had a Pilot shortage in Australia. With pay offers like this I can see why....................
Please anyone considering going for this interview you may want to seriously look at other options. This means a very bleak outlook in the Australian job scene. At the end of the day money talks and bullS*** walks. I thought we had a Pilot shortage in Australia. With pay offers like this I can see why....................
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Two points to consider though.
1. It's good "interview experience" for the candidate anyway if they have the time to show up.
2. Wouldn't the message to the prospective employer go a little deeper when the candidates start pulling thier applications after turning up "meeting and greeting" and finding out what's really on the table.
1st post done and dusted!
1. It's good "interview experience" for the candidate anyway if they have the time to show up.
2. Wouldn't the message to the prospective employer go a little deeper when the candidates start pulling thier applications after turning up "meeting and greeting" and finding out what's really on the table.
1st post done and dusted!
Sprucegoose
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I don't know where this figure of $45,000 comes from, it seems to be getting lower and lower! My sources tell me the initial offer was almost double that, but the actual figure will be disclosed at the interviews along with pertinent rostering information.
I know several people who have 6000-10,000 hours plus who have interviews, none of these people would be attending for $45,000. I expect with Qantas at one end of the scale on $100K+ and Jetstar on the other at $55K for the same position, I expect that VA will fall somewhere in between and that $45K is way off the mark.
629Bus, there are people in australia with considerably more experience than 4000 hours who have never applied to any major Aussie airline, myself included! Many of these people may be interested in hearing what VA has to say, then making up their minds, this certainly does not make them monkeys...
I know several people who have 6000-10,000 hours plus who have interviews, none of these people would be attending for $45,000. I expect with Qantas at one end of the scale on $100K+ and Jetstar on the other at $55K for the same position, I expect that VA will fall somewhere in between and that $45K is way off the mark.
629Bus, there are people in australia with considerably more experience than 4000 hours who have never applied to any major Aussie airline, myself included! Many of these people may be interested in hearing what VA has to say, then making up their minds, this certainly does not make them monkeys...